50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Runningman]

There can be no doubt, those that miss the pretrib coming and rapture will meet the Beast - either face to face or by others trying to enforce the image and the mark.

Imagine if you will, a Jew still hiding in Berlin in 1943. His chances of survival are slim to none. He will be found and executed.
Now picture a similar scene but worldwide. There are going to be very few places to hide with modern technology.

I can only go by what is written. When I read Heb. 9, the last verse, I read that Jesus is coming for those LOOKING FOR His coming.

Can you honestly say that if Jesus came to the clouds tonight that you would be "looking for" Him - EXPECTING Him?

Jesus taught us to be looking for His return. Paul who taught post-tribulation rapture taught us to be looking for His return. What makes you think we would then not be looking for His return?

We're always looking for the return. Jesus and Paul did not give us so many clues about the return for no good reasons. There will be signs present in the real world that hint the time is coming nearer. Are you studying these scriptures faithfully and truly?

 

[lamad]

Did you not read what I posted?

I said this:

"Jesus said nothing about taking raptured believers to heaven."

So, please show me this teaching that is found in 1 Thess 4.

Of course it's a rapture (or better, a gathering) verse. I've never said otherwise.

What ISN'T THERE is any mention of Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.

If there is, just quote the verse please.

Why do you insist there must be ONE VERSE that shows the rapture and the trip to heaven? I have stated over and over:

THERE IS NO SINGLE VERSE ANYWHERE in scripture that proves either a pretrib, posttrib, prewrath or midtrib rapture.

Why then do you keep insisting there must be?

 

[Absolutely]

We as pretribbers over the years have left the door WIDE OPEN for criticism. For example, trying to say the rapture is in Rev. 4:1. Even a beginning reader could tell that was JOHN caught up, not the church.

I want to close all doors to criticism. Anything that has been classical pretrib that was in error we must correct. One of the big errors of classical pretrib thought is that the seals are a part of the 70th week. They are not and that can be proven with good bible exegesis.

If we just follow the text, John shows us clearly that the timing of the first seal opened was around 32 AD when Jesus ascended.

Look at it this way: Rev 1 was while John was alive. Rev. 21 is far into our future. It is logical then that somewhere between chapter 1 and chapter 21 is where the church is NOW. How would we find that? I think we both agree that no trumpet has sounded, so we are before any trumpet.

Since it is at the 7th seal that the angels get the trumpets, that is future too.

There has never been a worldwide earthquake such as seen at the 6th seal, so that too is future.

Are martyrs being killed today? Certainly. We would both agree. So we could say that the 5th seal is still ongoing.

If we start at the first seal and ask: has this happened? We need to check the context of that first seal to answer. God had a problem: He wanted to show John about this book with seven seals, but He wanted to start the vision while the book was still in the hands of the Father. The problem was, John was going to see this vision some 60 years after the fact! How was God going to show John something 60 years into his past in a vision of future events? Here is how God did it"

He showed John a throne room with Jesus NOT SEEN. (Would Jesus as the second person of the Godhood have been seen at the Father's right hand while He was on earth as a human?)

He showed a throne room with the Holy Spirit there - when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended.

He showed John a search for one worthy that ended in failure.
Then He showed John a search that found Jesus as worthy.
Then He showed John the very moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

Without a doubt, John understood that part of the vision was history for him, when Jesus was on earth, then rose from the dead, then ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. All that was to show us, the readers, that Jesus opened that first seal around 32 AD. OF COURSE it is to represent the church sent out with the gospel.

Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel: but God LIMITED them in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. Where has two world wars started? In that 1/4th. Where have all the famines been in our lifetime: In Africa: again in that 1/4. In fact, these three riders ride together, but the white horse rider rides alone.

What am I getting at? The rider on the white horse in seal 1 is the church sent out with the gospel.

Rev 4
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Tell me where Jesus is standing.

 

[lamad]

Jesus taught us to be looking for His return. Paul who taught post-tribulation rapture taught us to be looking for His return. What makes you think we would then not be looking for His return?

Cute, leave out the part that don't fit! I expected that! Let's try again:

With your current belief system, IF Jesus came TONIGHT....would you be expecting Him?

 

[Runningman]

The truth is, in verse 3b the man of sin is revealed.
The truth is, in verses 6-8 the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the restraining force is taken out of the way.

Therefore, please tell us with your exegesis, WHAT OR WHO in verse 3a get's "taken out of the way" that could be a restraining force preventing the man of sin from being revealed before his time.

Then next, tell us who or what this restrainer is. Since Paul wrote, "now you know, go ahead and tell us.

I already did that. Read the post you replied to.

 

[Runningman]

Cute, leave out the part that don't fit! I expected that! Let's try again:

With your current belief system, IF Jesus came TONIGHT....would you be expecting Him?

I just answered that question. You are all over the place.

 

[lamad]

Rev 4
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Tell me where Jesus is standing.

Sorry, that is chapter 5. John is seeing Jesus "as a lamb" after He ascended. It is in the throne room. It is symbolism. Notice the timing: right after He prevailed over death to become worthy, then ascended. What did He do first? He sent the Holy Spirit down. This was done so we would know the timing of the first seal being opened.

 

[lamad]

I just answered that question. You are all over the place.

So you are believing the Beast will be revealed first
And at the same time Jesus returning first..

I understand....

 

[lamad]

I already did that. Read the post you replied to.

I did read it, and just now read it again. You said what the restrainer could not be. But Paul said "now you know what is restraining. It seems you don't know. Who is the "he?"

And your reasoning that it cannot be the Holy Spirit is faulty as I have shown.

 

[Absolutely]

Yes, I have been shown John 14 over and over, and I've explained it over and over.

Jesus said nothing about taking raptured believers to heaven.

You are just reading it quite wrong. That's all.

In fact, John 14 has already been fulfilled. Jesus "came back" after His crucifixion, and then went to heaven to "prepare a place" for every believer.

There is nothing about a rapture in John 14.

It takes a whole lot of assumption to see a rapture in John 14. It's not there.

Now combine it with this;
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

That is specifically pointing to the wedding supper in heaven.
Where he is now building mansions

 

[Runningman]

So you are believing the Beast will be revealed first
And at the same time Jesus returning first..

I understand....

No you really don't understand because I didn't say "at the same time" and neither does the scripture in 2 Thessalonians 2.

The anti-Christ will be revealed. By the time Jesus comes the AC will already be using power, signs, lying wonders. He will be exalting himself above all the is God, calling himself God, and sitting in the temple of God.

Jesus will destroy all of that at the brightness of His coming. Read the scriptures.

 

[lamad]

Nah you're definitely misunderstanding the scripture. Paul says the gathering to Jesus occurs after the man of sin is revealed in 2 Thess. 2:1-4. Paul doesn't reverse his position on this at any point. You're failure to comprehend this ruins your exegesis of the scripture.

Yes, my point was the the 'restrainer being taken out of the way" prior to the great tribulation is most likely not the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit can be proven to still be present in saints during the great tribulation as I've already shown.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-9
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

The restrainer being taken out of the way, referred to as a he, is something that must happen before Jesus returns and destroys the anti-Christ. So it's something holding back God's wrath which comes after the great tribulation.

The 6th seal must be taken out of the way by Someone to open the scroll:

Revelation 6:16-17
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This corresponds to the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15-19 and 7th vial in Revelation 16:17-21 which are harbingers of the wrath of God against the anti-Christ at the return of Christ.

I don't suspect you'll be able to accept these truths, but in any case here they are anyway.

Nah you're definitely misunderstanding the scripture. No, that is on your side.

Paul doesn't reverse his position on this at any point. Good point: Paul is pretrib in his first letter and pretrib here too.

Paul says the gathering to Jesus occurs after the man of sin is revealed No, that is not what Paul said. You think you know, when in fact you don't.

is most likely not the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit can be proven to still be present in saints during the great tribulation as I've already shown. you really don't get it. The Holy Spirit is inside every believer, and when they are "taken out of the way" HE is "taken out of the way" IN THEM. But HE is still very much on earth for the millions that will turn to Him during the 70th week - for example, the 144,000.

The restrainer being taken out of the way, referred to as a he, is something that must happen before Jesus returns You amaze me: that is not at all the intent of this passage. The taking out of the way is so that the man of sin can be revealed! The restraining power is PREVENTING the revealing of the man of sin before the proper time - and ONLY GOD knows that time. Which is one good reason why GOD is the retraining force.

The 6th seal must be taken out of the way by Someone to open the scroll: Now you are showing us how little you understand of this passage or even the 6th seal. Someone? Jesus opens the seals. But the seals have ZERO to do with this restraining power being taken out of the way. Is this a red herring?

So it's something holding back God's wrath You are so far out in left field (as they say) you have left the entire stadium. Why not just believe the text instead of making something up?

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [restrains] will let [will continue to resrtrain or hold back the revealing], until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

Paul is talking about the man of sin, "that wicked" man of sin. He would want to be revealed TOMORROW, but God knows the proper time for him to be revealed. It MUST happen at the midpoint of the 70th week.

This [6th seal] corresponds to the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15-19 and 7th vial in Revelation 16:17-21 Any time someone tries to rearrange John's God given chronology, I know their theory will be proven wrong.

 

[VCO]

I suppose you've asked all of them?

You do not have to ask all of them, as we have a Core of Beliefs that we ascribe to. Such as this:

The Return of Jesus
We believe that there are two future comings of Jesus. The first will be the rapture, where the Lord comes back for His own people—the church. This could happen at any time. The other will be His second coming, where Jesus will physically and visibly return to the earth to establish His kingdom for His one thousand-year Millennial reign.
(John 14:1-4; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 19:11-16; Revelation 20:4-6)


You see if we do not agree with the entire Statemement of Faith, we need to find a different Church that teaches what we can totally agree with. It is not pleasing to GOD if we just go in to stir up trouble or argue.

 

[lamad]

No you really don't understand because I didn't say "at the same time" and neither does the scripture in 2 Thessalonians 2.

The anti-Christ will be revealed. By the time Jesus comes the AC will already be using power, signs, lying wonders. He will be exalting himself above all the is God, calling himself God, and sitting in the temple of God.

Jesus will destroy all of that at the brightness of His coming. Read the scriptures.

So what you are really saying is, IF Jesus came tonight for His bride, it would catch you NOT LOOKING for Him - because you believe other things must come first.

I DO understand.

 

[VCO]

That is delusional.


Of course I do. By His Word.


Yes, through His Word.


That's what I said.


so you're hearing voices, are you?

OH MY, the you do not believe is listening to GOD either. WOW, no wonder you do not believe.

He speaks to my hear VERY FREQUENTLY, and three times I heard the audable voice of CHRIST. One time he YELLED AT ME as I passed a hitch hiker on the interstate, to: PICK HIM UP!

HE scared the daylights out of me. I was traveling 65 mph, and INSTANTLY had all for wheels SCREAMING to a dead stop. I witnessed to him for the next 300 miles. Yes, He will be in heaven with me.

You show me a person who listens to CHRIST regularly either non-verbally in his heart or verbally, and I wll show you a REAL CHRISTIAN.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's run over this again: there is no verse ANYWHERE in scripture that proves a pretrib, a posttrib, a midtrib or a prewrath rapture. NONE!

2Thess 2:1 proves that the gathering (rapture to you) follows the coming of Christ. Not really difficult to understand.

We don't form doctrine from an isolated verse. Why they do you insist on one?

What I'm asking for is easy. Just quote one verse that says that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven. And I'll believe it.

If you have a boatload of such verses, great. Share them as well. I'm trying to be easy on you. So all I ask is for 1 verse. And I'm letting YOU pick the very best and most clear verse that teaches that raptured believers are taken to heaven.

Is that your kind of exegesis?

My exegesis is what the Bible SAYS. Yours appears to be what the Bible doesn't say.

If we take ALL the end times scriptures posttrib is proven as impossible.

You haven't shown that.

If that is true, are you able to summarize concisely to prove your claim?

Does John 14 mention heaven? You know it does. Why argue then?

A lot of verses mention heaven. What does that prove? Nothing.

What verse shows and teaches that raptured believers are taken to heaven when raptured?

That is the singular issue here. Quit the dancing around and either provide one or admit you don't have any.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It takes far more assumption to imagine John 14 is history!

It takes NO assumption at all to KNOW that John 14 is history. It records what Jesus told His 11 disciples. Why do you have to assume or imagine?

Have you seen your mansion? I have certainly not seen mine.

Was Jesus talking to you around 33 AD?

No one I know personally has seen his or hers.

That's nice.

I do know of someone that has seen theirs and came back to testify. In fact, I know of two such people. I have read books of many more.

Cite your sources, please. If you are referring to biblical people, where did they mention their "mansions", which, in the Greek, means "rooms".

 

[FreeGrace2]

We as pretribbers over the years have left the door WIDE OPEN for criticism. For example, trying to say the rapture is in Rev. 4:1. Even a beginning reader could tell that was JOHN caught up, not the church.

I want to close all doors to criticism. Anything that has been classical pretrib that was in error we must correct. One of the big errors of classical pretrib thought is that the seals are a part of the 70th week. They are not and that can be proven with good bible exegesis.

Actually, the ONLY WAY to correct your error is to PROVE that your claim about raptured believers are taken to heaven.

And that requires a verse that makes that clear. Note I am not asking for any specific words, but definitely specific teaching.

Can you do it?

 

[FreeGrace2]

And your reasoning that it cannot be the Holy Spirit is faulty as I have shown.

Prove it from Scripture, not your speculations.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Now combine it with this;
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

I wish you were kidding. What makes you think they haven't been drinking wine since the 1st Century?

That is specifically pointing to the wedding supper in heaven.

You have a very nice imagination. Sure, wine is served at weddings, but it's drunk at other times as well.

Where he is now building mansions

No Scripture says "mansions". The Greek word means "rooms". And why do you assume He is now building them?

If that were true, the 11 disciples and ALL the believers from Christ's crucifixion on are still waiting for their housing.

Why don't you make better sense?