50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Maybe it hasn't occurred to you, but on a trip from heaven to earth, one has to pass through the atmosphere, where Jesus resurrects all the accompanying dead saints, and gathers up all the living believers and changes them. And THEN He continues on down to earth.

1) to where the "already-just-having-been raised" "dead in Christ" will be "caught up TOGETHER [at the same time" with the "still-living" of us [/'the Church which is His body']...

How can the "dead in Christ" be "caught up"? They CAME with Him. It's the living believers who are CAUGHT UP together with THEM (that would be Jesus Christ and the saints already in heaven).

1 Thess 4-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

If this isn't clear enough, I don't think there is any more than one can do for you.

btw, the phrase "dead in Christ will rise first" refers to the physical bodies being raised from the dirt. Their souls came with Jesus from heaven at the Second Advent.

 

[VCO]

The day and hour no man knows is the (Second Coming) not a (Pre-Trib Rapture) as many "falsely" teach

, where is a verse that tells us that Jesus will take raptured believers to heaven?
Where is the verse that tells us that from the air Jesus will take the raptured church right back to earth?
Why ask questions that have no answers? I can only guess you want to argue.

the tribulational martyrs will be in the FIRST resurrection. That totally knocks out your theory that there is a previous resurrection. It only shows you lack understanding this verse and term. In this context the Greek word behind "first" is not talking about TIME at all! It is talking about honor.

Question: of the two resurrections listed in Rev. 20, which was was Jesus own resurrection a part of?

So you have a problem. Which you cannot explain. There is no problem except in your own understanding and we have explained it over and over. The problem is not on the explaining end, it is on the understanding what is explained end. In other words, to keep this very simple, it is only you that have problems.

Sp when is "until the restoration of all things.?" When does or will this restoration begin? It cannot be after Jesus coming as shown in 1 Thes. 4.

You both are sincere, but are sincerely WRONG. The Appearing in the Clouds is a Separate prior incident, about 7 years Prior to the SECOND COMING, and I CAN PROVE IT; but I doubt if you will even READ IT. Your brainwashed thoughts, are NOT TRUTH.

THIS VERSE IS ABSOLUTE TRUTH:

Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come.


Yeshua SAID it, and YOU DOUBT IT, simply becauce YOU were taught different. That is PLAIN ENGLISH, and YOU proceed to DOUBT IT.

How many will not KNOW the Day or the Hour ? ? ?

Can't you see the Day or Hour is Known by ever combatant on the Armageddan Battle Field ? ? ?

Revelation 19:19 (NKJV)
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

They are their to try to stop JESUS CHRIST from coming back.


DON'T YOU SEE, THE ONLY WAY THEY WILL NOT will not know the at Least the DAY, is if it was Pretribulation ? ? ?

It would take at least two months to gather the world's Armies in the Valley of Megiddo and Jerusalem, and TWO MONTHS is a LONG TIME. But HIS APPEARING, the one Known AS the RAPTURE will be gathered in a flash, as quick as a lightning flash.

Matthew 24:27 (NKJV)
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (HCSB)
14 Since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
15 For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Here is the tradition Feasts of TRUMPETS, in a Massianic Christian Church

Leviticus 23:24 (NASB)
24 "Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'In the seventh month on the first of the month you shall have a rest, a reminder by blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation.

The LAST TRUMP HAS NOTHING to do with the TRUMPET JUDGEMENTS. It is Part of the FEAST OF TRUMPETS, the very LAST TRUMP, and is traditionally held extra long, and is Called in JUDAISM the LAST TRUMP.

Here is what it SOUNDS LIKE:

 

[FreeGrace2]

How do post tribbers reconcile this portion of Scripture to their opinion?

To be clear, our view isn't about opinion, as you opine. It's what the Word SAYS, unlike the pre-tribbers opinion, all without any rapture verse making clear that Jesus takes raptured believers up to heaven.

So why believe what isn't SAID in Scripture?

Clearly the tribulation has not yet reached its conclusion by this point.

Rev 11:12
And they (the two witnesses) heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

The parallelism is quite inescapable......

1 Thes 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

1 Cor 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Jas 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a KIND of firstfruits of His creation.

How silly. Why would anyone equate this to a "rapture". These men were raised from the dead, just like the many during Jesus' day who were raised from the dead, but later died again. The body they INITIALLY had when they were transported to heaven is STILL the same body they preached in and were called back to heaven. No sweat.

However, they will accompany Jesus and the rest of the heavenly crowd when Jesus returns at the Second Advent to receive their own changed to immortal bodies, like everyone else.

Now, prove me wrong. With Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is beyond obvious the 10 virgin parable is the rapture

It is beyond obvious that NO parable teaches the rapture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Left behind are the carnal nominal believers.

And where is that found in the Bible?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The only relevant question is how the faith of pre-tribbers will be tested if they live to see the trib.

You guys are so dug in, and without any solid evidence by way of a verse saying that raptured believers go to heaven, I can only imagine how much reality will shake your faith.

That is only half the equasion

Your "math" is bad. There is no "other equation".

How will posttribbers feel when they are left behind because they had no faith in His imminent coming?

It seems you are saying that believing that Christ comes post trib will be left behind??? Where in the world did you get that piece of heresy??

It seems you might possibly be Arminian. You know, the crowd who believes that salvation can be lost.

Well, if salvation can be lost, then what Jesus said in John 10:28, plus a bunch more verses, is a lie. Is that the basis of your opinion?

If the rapture/resurrection occurs before the end of the Trib, He'll still take EVERYONE who has been given eternal life.

Especially for posttribbers who have no solid scriptural evidence for a posttrib rapture.

Ha. Said the guy who has no solid Scriptural evidence for the pre-trib rapture.

In fact, there IS solid evidence for the fact that the rapture occurs AT the Second Coming. You've been shown, so now it on you to believe or reject it.

2 Thess 2:1 places the Second Coming (coming of our Lord) just before His gathering of believers (rapture).

Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Trib martyrs as the FIRST resurrection.

1 Cor 15:23 describes the resurrection as Christ the first fruits, and THEN "those who belong to Him". All in one breath.

Why anyone keep trying to break up this single resurrection into several parts is puzzling, since there is NO Scripture to support it.

Which "rapture verse" clearly shows raptured believers going to heaven? None at all. So quit kicking your dead horse.

Wow. Talk about "no evidence". Your view takes the cake.

 

[FreeGrace2]

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
1 thes 4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
It fits 1 Thes 4. They are sister verses. Both are for a pretrib rapture. So your proof is no proof at all - it is only in your imagination.

The above is what I posted, but lamad doesn't know how to format quotes from others. The blue statements that follow are also mine, to which he attaches his comments.

The words themselves prove which occurs first No one has EVER argued against His coming before the catching up! What are you getting at?

Simply that the "catching up" is the rapture.

How does this order: coming first, gathering next prove ANYTHING?

Please read more carefully. I never said "coming first". The words "coming of the Lord" refers to the SECOND advent. THen the rapture.

Is this a red herring, meant to draw away from the real issue?

You seem not to even grasp the real issue here.

Read carefully, all pretribbers believe HIS COMING happens first, then the gathering after.

To be clear and accurate, it is His SECOND coming that occurs just before the gathering.

The question people have is, WHEN in relation to all the events in the book of Revelation. You have not proved WHEN. WHEN is His coming as shown in this verse? All you have proved is, "just before the gathering!"

Actually, the next few verses tell us precisely WHEN His Second Advent occurs.

Keep in mind that the Second Advent begins the DOTL.

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

So this proves that the DOTL, which begins with Jesus coming back to earth (Second Advent) "will not come UNTIL the rebellion occurs (Tribulation) and the man of lawlessness (Beast #1, aka AC) is revealed.

Jesus' first coming was around 3-4 BC as a baby. So He does come only once again. I would say 2 BC, but that is not the timing we are questioning. We are talking about when He will come NEXT. I say pretrib. You say posttrib. I have been trying to get you to prove it.

I just did. Again. How many times do you need to be refuted?

How do you know He only comes once again. That is part of your proof for a posttrib rapture. So WHERE is your proof?

See above. Again.

Paul tells of a coming in 1 Thes. 4 and in 2 Thes 2. And John shows a coming in Rev. 19. So perhaps there are THREE more comings?

Don't be silly. Of course several authors can mention the SAME event.

No, Paul's two verses are about ONE coming. It remains up to you to prove this coming FOR His saints is the very same coming as shown in Rev 19. I am out of time

No, you are out of ammo. You have zero verses that show that raptured believers go to heaven.

You don't believe 2 Thess 2. That's on you. I've proven my view. Unlike yourself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""If you had any scripture that showed that the church would be raptured pretrib, we would have something to talk about."""

Jesus used noah.

You used noah in the OPPOSITE dynamic.

You have Noah and Lot REMOVED AFTER the flood and sodom destroyed.

You guys crack me up.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ... speaking of which...

TheDivineWatermark said:
Well, let me ask you this... do you believe what you'd put in your Post #1157, or not:

Not a real smart question. Why would anyone not believe what they put in writing?

What I also said what that the Second Advent is the beginning of the DOTL. How can you disagree with that?

How are you saying that "the DOTL" *ARRIVES* (in its INITIAL MOMENTS) at both SEAL #1 [Rev6] *and* Armageddon [Rev19]??... pick one.

[hilarious!]





[perhaps I am just completely misunderstanding you...]


____________

I believe "the DOTL" *ARRIVES* (to unfold upon the earth over time) at SEAL #1 (not at the Armageddon time-slot / Christ's Second Coming to the earth point-in-time Rev19)

 

[FreeGrace2]

^ ... speaking of which...
How are you saying that "the DOTL" *ARRIVES* (in its INITIAL MOMENTS) at both SEAL #1 [Rev6] *and* Armageddon [Rev19]??... pick one.

I don't try to connect dots. I just read the words of Scripture. Very simple and clear.

Once again, the DOTL actually does "arrive" at some point in time, right? And it begins with the Second advent. Are you able to comprehend this, or do I need to be even more clear?

[hilarious!]

Go ahead and prove that the DOTL begins at the first seal. That should prove very hilarious. I have never said the DOTL begins at the beginning of the trib. It begins with the restoration of all things. Per Acts 3:21.

To be clear, I believe that the Second Advent of Christ begins the DOTL.

But go ahead and prove me wrong with Scripture. That should be interesting.

It still amazes me that you would prefer to make up your own "story" by spiritualizing Rev 20.

[perhaps I am just completely misunderstanding you...]

You are completely misunderstanding a whole lot of things.

I believe "the DOTL" *ARRIVES* (to unfold upon the earth over time) at SEAL #1 (not at the Armageddon time-slot / Christ's Second Coming to the earth point-in-time Rev19)

So prove it with Scripture.

 

[cv5]

Look at Matthew 24. The Noah analogy is set post tribulation. In I Thessalonians 1, we see the church is here when Jesus returns to execute vengeance on them that believe not.

<<<If you had any scripture that showed that the church would be raptured pretrib, we would have something to talk about.>>>

Here you go.....
Rev 3:10
“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

No problem for the raptured elders (The Church) shown in Revelation 4-5 who dwell in heaven at the time of the tribulation.

(Trial) peirasmos
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3986&t=NKJV

 

[Nehemiah6]

I don't try to connect dots. I just read the words of Scripture. Very simple and clear.

But unless you connect the dots you will always be at sea without a compass.

 

[Nehemiah6]

It is beyond obvious that NO parable teaches the rapture.

You are totally mistaken. The Parable of the Ten Virgins teaches the Rapture of the Church. Christ comes for His Church as a Bridegroom comes for His Bride.

 

[cv5]

^ ... speaking of which...


How are you saying that "the DOTL" *ARRIVES* (in its INITIAL MOMENTS) at both SEAL #1 [Rev6] *and* Armageddon [Rev19]??... pick one.

[hilarious!]





[perhaps I am just completely misunderstanding you...]


____________

I believe "the DOTL" *ARRIVES* (to unfold upon the earth over time) at SEAL #1 (not at the Armageddon time-slot / Christ's Second Coming to the earth point-in-time Rev19)

Agree....DOTL arrives on the earth at seal #1. But I think it actually begins in heaven when the Lamb stands to take to scroll Rev 5:6-7.

I'm pretty sure you have mentioned this several times in the past......

Rev 5:6: histēmi.......Standing to judge.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2476&t=NKJV

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
Well, let me ask you this... do you believe what you'd put in your Post #1157, or not:

Not a real smart question. Why would anyone not believe what they put in writing?

TDW: I believe "the DOTL" *ARRIVES* (to unfold upon the earth over time) at SEAL #1 (not at the Armageddon time-slot / Christ's Second Coming to the earth point-in-time Rev19)

So prove it with Scripture.

1) why am I supposed to "prove it" to someone who's already stated that they themselves believe this to be the case? (at least, in this ONE post [referenced above; your Post #1157]... for the moment... but not in other posts that have been made by this same one );

2) I've already said this very thing throughout this thread, numerous time, using Scripture references to show it


... so either you're just messin' with me, or you are one confused dude.

 

[VCO]

I do not want anyone who is Dead Set AGAINST Pretribulation to watch this Video. You will only Scoff.

This video is a sermon that an evangelical Pastor taught a few years ago. It is one of the BEST Sermons that I have ever heard, all about the RAPTURE. If you can listen to this objectively, with Joy in your heart. Then this message is for You. I was Blessed by this Message, and I am sure you will be too:

 

[lamad]

Well, off the top of my head, I know I made at least ONE post in THIS thread, on that Subject (not a thorough treatment, mind you, but brief comments on it):

Post #79 (page 4) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4530368


However, apart from their grasping the "chronology" issues (such as Luke 21:12 saying that the 70ad events must come "BEFORE ALL" of "the beginning of birth pangS" [same point being made in Matt22:7, then v.8 [Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 (7:3)], etc...], then it can be difficult for a person to see that ALL of Matthew 24 (+) is talking about what FOLLOWS "our Rapture"... but you're welcome to view that post of mine (however brief it was), and see if any of it helps "clear the vision," so to speak...

It's on the topic of the "LAMPS LIT" for the "IN THE NIGHT [/NIGHT WATCHES]" time-period (i.e. trib yrs), and related to the Matt24:14 / 26:13 verses (but if a person is in the mindset that Matt24:14 [/26:13] is what is taking place [/being preached] NOW [rather than IN the FUTURE TRIB yrs, per context], it can be difficult to wrench such a thing from their mindset...)



[I've made many other posts on that Subject you're asking about... will try to Search out some...]

Good answer. So many people read right past "the end is not yet, and then the next several verses starting with a preposition tying them right back to "the end is not yet. Jesus is talking about "church age" until He finally mentions "the end" I think in verse 14. Then He jumps right over the first half of the week and lands at the mipoint abomination.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It still amazes me that you would prefer to make up your own "story" by spiritualizing Rev 20.

It's not ME who "spiritualizes" Rev20... You're thinking of T7t7 (or possibly Runningman), who DO do this.

Not me.




[*I* believe there will be a LITERAL, future, earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19]


Get some rest, bro...

 

[lamad]

Agree....DOTL arrives on the earth at seal #1. But I think it actually begins in heaven when the Lamb stands to take to scroll Rev 5:6-7.

I'm pretty sure you have mentioned this several times in the past......

Rev 5:6: histēmi.......Standing to judge.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2476&t=NKJV

My on my. Why can't we just follow the TEXT? John TELLS US when the DAY begins: it is at the 6th seal. John calls it the Day of His wrath. It is the same day. It starts at the 6th seal, and the 70th week starts at the 7th seal. That proves the entire 70th week comes with God's wrath.

 

[lamad]

I don't try to connect dots. I just read the words of Scripture. Very simple and clear.

Once again, the DOTL actually does "arrive" at some point in time, right? And it begins with the Second advent. Are you able to comprehend this, or do I need to be even more clear?


Go ahead and prove that the DOTL begins at the first seal. That should prove very hilarious. I have never said the DOTL begins at the beginning of the trib. It begins with the restoration of all things. Per Acts 3:21.

To be clear, I believe that the Second Advent of Christ begins the DOTL.

But go ahead and prove me wrong with Scripture. That should be interesting.

It still amazes me that you would prefer to make up your own "story" by spiritualizing Rev 20.


You are completely misunderstanding a whole lot of things.


So prove it with Scripture.

Please! Please can we just follow the script?

12 And I beheld when He opened the 6th seal...
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Why would anyone try to imagine some other time when John GIVES US the time: the 6th seal. Can you explain why you don't believe John and imagine you know better?