Christians are Israel

[Bookends]

So you don't think you are Israel, huh?

Well, I ask you this; is the Lord Jesus your shepherd? If your answer is yes... then go read Matthew 2:6

 

[Abiding]

are you trying to go supernatural on us?

 

[Bookends]

are you trying to go supernatural on us?

Hey welcome back Abiding !!!!

 

[Abiding]

Hello excellent thread. Great intro also. And thankyou Bookends!

 

[Red33]

How many of you, when you hear the term 'twelve tribes' actually think of the church instead of thinking of the twelve tribes of Israel? When James wrote his letter, He addressed that letter to the 'twelve tribes' scattered abroad. How many of you think that James (a converted Jew) was addressing His letter to the 'twelve tribes' of Israel or to the 'twelve tribes' of the church? If you believe he was addressing the 'twelve tribes of the church, please explain who those 'twelve tribes' are referring to.

In (Mt 19:27) who is Jesus referring to , who will sit on twelve thrones judging the 'twelve tribes' of Israel. Are these 'twelve tribes' the church, the true Israel? If they are the church then which tribe or tribes do the Gentiles belong to?

Who are the 'twelve tribes' that Paul refers to in (Acts 26:7)?

In (Rev 21:10,11) that great city, holy Jerusalem, shall descend out of heaven, having twelve gates with the name of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel. Who are the 'twelve tribes' referred to here by name?

In (Rev 7:4-8) there are 'twelve tribes' of the children of Israel referred to by name that equal 144,000 men from these tribes. Are we to think of these men as part of the church that is made of both Jew and Gentile or are these all children of Israel who are Jews from birth?

Has God en-grafted Gentiles into the Jewish stock of these twelve tribes?

It is so clear and evident that Paul makes a distinction between those of Israel and those of the Gentiles. They are never commingled. God has made both one when both the Jew of Israel and the Gentile of the world believe upon the Son for salvation. They are not commingled but they are made one. The Gentile becomes a child of God and not a child of Israel. Paul never considered himself a Gentile the whole time he was an apostle to the Gentiles and he made that very clear. Peter went to the children of Israel and Paul went to the Gentiles. Never does a child of Israel become a Gentile nor a Gentile become a child of Israel.

Israel was God's elect people and the gospel was given to them and is of them as the Jews. Those of the Jews that believed became the remnant of the Jews that took the gospel to the Gentiles in all the world, but it was given to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles. The church is made of both Jew and Gentile who believe. The twelve tribes of the children of Israel have nothing to do with the church and never have no matter how much people try to make it so. The believing Jew is part of the church as well as the Gentile and there is no partiality or special privilege in being a Jew.

When Jesus came unto His own and His own received Him not, those that He came to were not the Gentiles, they were the Jews and they rejected Him as the Messiah and they crucified Him and Peter made that very clear when he preached at Pentecost.

 

[Abiding]

Wasnt there something about being grafted in? and the twain became one?
And....................................................ill stop there.

 

[peterT]

How many of you, when you hear the term 'twelve tribes' actually think of the church instead of thinking of the twelve tribes of Israel? When James wrote his letter, He addressed that letter to the 'twelve tribes' scattered abroad. How many of you think that James (a converted Jew) was addressing His letter to the 'twelve tribes' of Israel or to the 'twelve tribes' of the church? If you believe he was addressing the 'twelve tribes of the church, please explain who those 'twelve tribes' are referring to.

In (Mt 19:27) who is Jesus referring to , who will sit on twelve thrones judging the 'twelve tribes' of Israel. Are these 'twelve tribes' the church, the true Israel? If they are the church then which tribe or tribes do the Gentiles belong to?

Who are the 'twelve tribes' that Paul refers to in (Acts 26:7)?

In (Rev 21:10,11) that great city, holy Jerusalem, shall descend out of heaven, having twelve gates with the name of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel. Who are the 'twelve tribes' referred to here by name?

In (Rev 7:4-8) there are 'twelve tribes' of the children of Israel referred to by name that equal 144,000 men from these tribes. Are we to think of these men as part of the church that is made of both Jew and Gentile or are these all children of Israel who are Jews from birth?

Has God en-grafted Gentiles into the Jewish stock of these twelve tribes?

It is so clear and evident that Paul makes a distinction between those of Israel and those of the Gentiles. They are never commingled. God has made both one when both the Jew of Israel and the Gentile of the world believe upon the Son for salvation. They are not commingled but they are made one. The Gentile becomes a child of God and not a child of Israel. Paul never considered himself a Gentile the whole time he was an apostle to the Gentiles and he made that very clear. Peter went to the children of Israel and Paul went to the Gentiles. Never does a child of Israel become a Gentile nor a Gentile become a child of Israel.

Israel was God's elect people and the gospel was given to them and is of them as the Jews. Those of the Jews that believed became the remnant of the Jews that took the gospel to the Gentiles in all the world, but it was given to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles. The church is made of both Jew and Gentile who believe. The twelve tribes of the children of Israel have nothing to do with the church and never have no matter how much people try to make it so. The believing Jew is part of the church as well as the Gentile and there is no partiality or special privilege in being a Jew.

When Jesus came unto His own and His own received Him not, those that He came to were not the Gentiles, they were the Jews and they rejected Him as the Messiah and they crucified Him and Peter made that very clear when he preached at Pentecost.

Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth NOT 12 or 13 blood lines, just one blood of all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth.

When James was addressing the 12 tribes he was speaking to the church. 12 spiritual tribes

For flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God 1 Corinthians 15:50.

James would not be segregating Jewish Christians from none Jewish Christians, for James also teaches to have respect of persons is a sin.

James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

There is one body the church and one baptism and one spiritual drink and we are all made perfect in one.

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;
Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

And there is no Jew or Greek in Christ Jesus, just Christians.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[unclefester]

Does the Church Replace Israel?
by Dr. Arturo Azurdia III

"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." (Revelation 2:8)

... Poverty as a consequence of slander and accusations .... The source of their persecution: the Romans. Fomenting the Roman persecution was the inciting accusations of ethnic Israelites about whom Jesus here says are not worthy of that ancient and honorable name. "I know the slander [blasphemy] by those who say they are Jews and are not." My friends that is a profoundly important statement. When we watch the flow of redemptive history, the storyline of the Bible unfold and we move from the epic of promise into the epic of fulfillment, God's people are no longer defined genealogically, they are defined Christologically ... Christocentrically. You say "what do you mean?" True Jews are those who follow Jesus as their Messiah. They are characterized by a birth not of the flesh, but of the Spirit. They are marked out by a circumcision not of the flesh but of the heart. So who then are these people? These people who claim to be Jews by virtue of their bloodline, but according to Jesus himself, they are not. Jesus defines them for us: "They are a synagogue of Satan." It is like what Jesus says to the unbelieving Pharisees in John chapter 8, who claimed the paternity of Abraham. He says: "You are of your father the devil." You see beloved, this is why we need to think clearly at this point. This is what is so utterly wrong today when people refer to the Judeo-Christian God. [They say] "Christians and Jews really in the end worship the same God." NO! ...To reject Jesus Christ is to reject the full and final revelation of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The truth is there is no such thing as an orthodox Jew, beloved, unless he is a Christian because if the Jews really believed in the Old Testament they would believe in Jesus Christ. If a person does not believe in Jesus Christ then, according to John chapter 5, then he does not believe in Moses either. "Moses spoke of me," Jesus said. And so Paul says in Romans chapter 2 "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly nor is circumcision merely outward and physical", no "a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly and circumcision is circumcision of the heart by the Spirit not the written code."

Now friends, people often ask me, "Do you believe that the church replaces Israel. The answer is "no of course not!!!" The church does not replace Israel. The fact is, Jewish people who reject Jesus Christ are apostate from Israel. Following Jesus Christ is the ultimate expression of true Judaism. Everything in the Old Testament pointed to Him. Israel and the church, then, are not in radical discontinuity, rather, the later is the consummated expression of the former. Beloved, a failure to appreciate that has profoundly determined strange things in our [own] country. By virtue of the influence of American evangelicalism we say silly things like "Always side with Israel, no matter what Israel does always side with Israel. God will take care of America if we always side with Israel. They are God's people." [But] Jesus says they are a synagogue of Satan. And is there a reason then why American evangelicals are notoriously ineffective in their evangelism of Arabs?

Does the Church Replace Israel

 

[zone]

So you don't think you are Israel, huh?

Well, I ask you this; is the Lord Jesus your shepherd? If your answer is yes... then go read Matthew 2:6

Galatians 3:7
Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 6:16
And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

~

Israel of God-not the Israel after the flesh, among whom those teachers wish to enrol you; but the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith (Ga 3:9, 29; Ro 2:28, 29; Php 3:3).
JFBBC

And upon the Israel of God - The true church of God; all who are his true worshippers; see the note at Romans 2:28-29; Romans 9:6, note.
Barnes

The Israel of God - The true Christians, called here the Israel of God, to distinguish them from Israel according to the flesh. See the notes on Romans 2:29; Romans 4:12 (note).
Clarke

and upon the Israel of God; which is a further description of the persons, for whom he prays for these blessings; and is not to be understood by way of distinction from them, but as an amplification of their character; and as pointing out the Israel, by way of emphasis, the Israel, or Israelites indeed, the spiritual Israel, as distinct from Israel according to the flesh; see 1 Corinthians 10:18. The "Israel of God", or as the Arabic version reads it, "Israel the propriety of God"
Henry

And upon the Israel of God

The καὶ and may be simply collective, in which case the Israel of God may be different from as many as walk, etc., and may mean truly converted Jews. Or the καὶ may be explicative, in which case the Israel of God will define and emphasize as many as, etc., and will mean the whole body of Christians, Jewish and Gentile. In other words, they who walk according to this rule form the true Israel of God. The explicative καὶ is at best doubtful here, and is rather forced, although clear instances of it may be found in 1 Corinthians 3:5; 1 Corinthians 15:38. It seems better to regard it as simply connective. Then ὅσοι will refer to the individual Christians, Jewish and Gentile, and Israel of God to the same Christians, regarded collectively, and forming the true messianic community.
Vincent

Upon the true Israel, whose praise is from God and not from men; Ro 2:29.
Geneva

6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule - Glorying only in the cross of Christ. Being crucified to the world. And, Created anew. Peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel, that is, the Church, of God - Which consists of all those, and those only, of every nation and kindred, who walk by this rule.
Wesley

"I'm not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith," he said. "There is nothing in the Night to honor Israel' that does that." In fact, trying to convert Jews is a "waste of time," he said. "The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They (already) have a faith structure." Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha'i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity, he says.
John Hagee
Houston Chronicle

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you don't think you are Israel, huh?

Well, I ask you this; is the Lord Jesus your shepherd? If your answer is yes... then go read Matthew 2:6

No I don't. for in Christ there is niether jew or Gentile, free or slave. male or female. their is the body of Christ.

As for matt 2: 6, would it not be better to go to the origional quote to get the context?

Micah 5:
Now gather yourself in troops, O daughter of troops; He has laid siege against us; They will strike the judge of Israel with a rod on the cheek. The Coming Messiah

2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.”

3 Therefore He shall give them up,
Until the time that she who is in labor has given birth;
Then the remnant of His brethren
Shall return to the children of Israel.
4 And He shall stand and feed His flock
In the strength of the Lord,
In the majesty of the name of the Lord His God;
And they shall abide,
For now He shall be great
To the ends of the earth;
5 And this One shall be peace.

Judgment on Israel’s Enemies

When the Assyrian comes into our land,
And when he treads in our palaces,
Then we will raise against him
Seven shepherds and eight princely men.
6 They shall waste with the sword the land of Assyria,
And the land of Nimrod at its entrances;
Thus He shall deliver us from the Assyrian,
When he comes into our land
And when he treads within our borders.

7 Then the remnant of Jacob
Shall be in the midst of many peoples,
Like dew from the Lord,
Like showers on the grass,
That tarry for no man
Nor wait for the sons of men.
8 And the remnant of Jacob
Shall be among the Gentiles,
In the midst of many peoples,
Like a lion among the beasts of the forest,
Like a young lion among flocks of sheep,
Who, if he passes through,
Both treads down and tears in pieces,
And none can deliver.
9 Your hand shall be lifted against your adversaries,
And all your enemies shall be cut off.

10 “And it shall be in that day,” says the Lord,
“That I will cut off your horses from your midst
And destroy your chariots.
11 I will cut off the cities of your land
And throw down all your strongholds.
12 I will cut off sorceries from your hand,
And you shall have no soothsayers.
13 Your carved images I will also cut off,
And your sacred pillars from your midst;
You shall no more worship the work of your hands;
14 I will pluck your wooden images[a] from your midst;
Thus I will destroy your cities.
15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and furyOn the nations that have not heard.”[b]

seems pretyclear two events are happening here.

1. The messiah comming and being killed

2. the future return of the messiah to bring the remnant of the children of Jacob back. and the setting up of his kingdom. after he has judged the gentile nations for their sins against his people. the same time in which he will set up his rulership IN ISREAL.

 

[zone]

by Dr. Arturo Azurdia III

"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." (Revelation 2:8)

... Poverty as a consequence of slander and accusations .... The source of their persecution: the Romans. Fomenting the Roman persecution was the inciting accusations of ethnic Israelites about whom Jesus here says are not worthy of that ancient and honorable name. "I know the slander [blasphemy] by those who say they are Jews and are not." My friends that is a profoundly important statement. When we watch the flow of redemptive history, the storyline of the Bible unfold and we move from the epic of promise into the epic of fulfillment, God's people are no longer defined genealogically, they are defined Christologically ... Christocentrically. You say "what do you mean?" True Jews are those who follow Jesus as their Messiah. They are characterized by a birth not of the flesh, but of the Spirit. They are marked out by a circumcision not of the flesh but of the heart. So who then are these people? These people who claim to be Jews by virtue of their bloodline, but according to Jesus himself, they are not. Jesus defines them for us: "They are a synagogue of Satan." It is like what Jesus says to the unbelieving Pharisees in John chapter 8, who claimed the paternity of Abraham. He says: "You are of your father the devil." You see beloved, this is why we need to think clearly at this point. This is what is so utterly wrong today when people refer to the Judeo-Christian God. [They say] "Christians and Jews really in the end worship the same God." NO! ...To reject Jesus Christ is to reject the full and final revelation of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The truth is there is no such thing as an orthodox Jew, beloved, unless he is a Christian because if the Jews really believed in the Old Testament they would believe in Jesus Christ. If a person does not believe in Jesus Christ then, according to John chapter 5, then he does not believe in Moses either. "Moses spoke of me," Jesus said. And so Paul says in Romans chapter 2 "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly nor is circumcision merely outward and physical", no "a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly and circumcision is circumcision of the heart by the Spirit not the written code."

Now friends, people often ask me, "Do you believe that the church replaces Israel. The answer is "no of course not!!!" The church does not replace Israel. The fact is, Jewish people who reject Jesus Christ are apostate from Israel. Following Jesus Christ is the ultimate expression of true Judaism. Everything in the Old Testament pointed to Him. Israel and the church, then, are not in radical discontinuity, rather, the later is the consummated expression of the former. Beloved, a failure to appreciate that has profoundly determined strange things in our [own] country. By virtue of the influence of American evangelicalism we say silly things like "Always side with Israel, no matter what Israel does always side with Israel. God will take care of America if we always side with Israel. They are God's people." [But] Jesus says they are a synagogue of Satan. And is there a reason then why American evangelicals are notoriously ineffective in their evangelism of Arabs?

Does the Church Replace Israel[/SIZE]

 

[Bookends]

How many of you, when you hear the term 'twelve tribes' actually think of the church instead of thinking of the twelve tribes of Israel? When James wrote his letter, He addressed that letter to the 'twelve tribes' scattered abroad. How many of you think that James (a converted Jew) was addressing His letter to the 'twelve tribes' of Israel or to the 'twelve tribes' of the church? If you believe he was addressing the 'twelve tribes of the church, please explain who those 'twelve tribes' are referring to.

In (Mt 19:27) who is Jesus referring to , who will sit on twelve thrones judging the 'twelve tribes' of Israel. Are these 'twelve tribes' the church, the true Israel? If they are the church then which tribe or tribes do the Gentiles belong to?

Who are the 'twelve tribes' that Paul refers to in (Acts 26:7)?

In (Rev 21:10,11) that great city, holy Jerusalem, shall descend out of heaven, having twelve gates with the name of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel. Who are the 'twelve tribes' referred to here by name?

In (Rev 7:4-8) there are 'twelve tribes' of the children of Israel referred to by name that equal 144,000 men from these tribes. Are we to think of these men as part of the church that is made of both Jew and Gentile or are these all children of Israel who are Jews from birth?

Has God en-grafted Gentiles into the Jewish stock of these twelve tribes?

It is so clear and evident that Paul makes a distinction between those of Israel and those of the Gentiles. They are never commingled. God has made both one when both the Jew of Israel and the Gentile of the world believe upon the Son for salvation. They are not commingled but they are made one. The Gentile becomes a child of God and not a child of Israel. Paul never considered himself a Gentile the whole time he was an apostle to the Gentiles and he made that very clear. Peter went to the children of Israel and Paul went to the Gentiles. Never does a child of Israel become a Gentile nor a Gentile become a child of Israel.

Israel was God's elect people and the gospel was given to them and is of them as the Jews. Those of the Jews that believed became the remnant of the Jews that took the gospel to the Gentiles in all the world, but it was given to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles. The church is made of both Jew and Gentile who believe. The twelve tribes of the children of Israel have nothing to do with the church and never have no matter how much people try to make it so. The believing Jew is part of the church as well as the Gentile and there is no partiality or special privilege in being a Jew.

When Jesus came unto His own and His own received Him not, those that He came to were not the Gentiles, they were the Jews and they rejected Him as the Messiah and they crucified Him and Peter made that very clear when he preached at Pentecost.

Red, what is the significance of the number twelve? Do you think that numbers in the scriptures have significance? 12 tribes, 12 apostles, 12 gates, 12 foundations... The very fact that James was addressing Christians in His letter and calling them the 12 tribes speaks truth that the Christian church is a continuation of God's People, an not a (parenthetical) age, in which you would call plan B.

Let me take the liberty to enlighten you that the number 12 has symbolic meaning, it stands for God's divine government in which He the king and ruler of. But perhaps you are unteachable.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Red, what is the significance of the number twelve? Do you think that numbers in the scriptures have significance? 12 tribes, 12 apostles, 12 gates, 12 foundations... The very fact that James was addressing Christians in His letter and calling them the 12 tribes speaks truth that the Christian church is a continuation of God's People, an not a (parenthetical) age, in which you would call plan B.

Let me take the liberty to enlighten you that the number 12 has symbolic meaning, it stands for God's divine government in which He the king and ruler of. But perhaps you are unteachable.

just a comment bro.

1. James was an apostle to the Jews, with Peter.
2. His ministry was in Jerusalem
3. Like the book of Hebrews, which was written specifically to Israel. but is very useful to us. James is writing to his people (12 tribes) or his natural brethren. Although what he said, as in the case of Hebrews, speaks directly to us also. But we were not his origional audience. He was writing a special letter to his brethren. there was no symbolic reference when he said to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. That was his general audience.

 

[Bookends]

In (Rev 21:10,11) that great city, holy Jerusalem, shall descend out of heaven, having twelve gates with the name of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel. Who are the 'twelve tribes' referred to here by name?

In (Rev 7:4-8) there are 'twelve tribes' of the children of Israel referred to by name that equal 144,000 men from these tribes. Are we to think of these men as part of the church that is made of both Jew and Gentile or are these all children of Israel who are Jews from birth?

.

12 tribes (OT days) x 12 disciples (apostles of the NT age) x 1000 ( symbolic meaning which is the whole, or completeness of something, a multitude. This is the 144, 000 thousand, the whole Church of God from the beginning of time.

» G5507 «

#5507 χίλιοι chilioi {khil'-ee-oy} plural of uncertain affinity; TDNT - 9:466,1316; adj
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) a thousand
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand:—thousand.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

• #5507.
• χι´λιοι
• chilioi; a prim. word; a thousand:—
• NASB - one thousand(1), thousand(8), twelve hundred*(1).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

12 tribes (OT days) x 12 disciples (apostles of the NT age) x 1000 ( symbolic meaning which is the whole, or completeness of something, a multitude. This is the 144, 000 thousand, the whole Church of God from the beginning of time.

» G5507 «

#5507 χίλιοι chilioi {khil'-ee-oy} plural of uncertain affinity; TDNT - 9:466,1316; adj
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) a thousand
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand:—thousand.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

• #5507.
• χι´λιοι
• chilioi; a prim. word; a thousand:—
• NASB - one thousand(1), thousand(8), twelve hundred*(1).

I think this is pushing it a little. If this were so. the 12 children would not be mentioned. He would have just been told 144000. there would be no need to separate the 12 children. I doubt anyone who would have read Johns letter in the 1st century would have though he was speaking about the whole church throughout all time.

 

[Bookends]

just a comment bro.

1. James was an apostle to the Jews, with Peter.
2. His ministry was in Jerusalem
3. Like the book of Hebrews, which was written specifically to Israel. but is very useful to us. James is writing to his people (12 tribes) or his natural brethren. Although what he said, as in the case of Hebrews, speaks directly to us also. But we were not his origional audience. He was writing a special letter to his brethren. there was no symbolic reference when he said to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. That was his general audience.

Yes, this maybe true, but, he wasn't writing to unbelieving Jews, he was writing to Jews who became Christians. You guys keep put up this wall between us and them...augh!

 

[Bookends]

I think this is pushing it a little. If this were so. the 12 children would not be mentioned. He would have just been told 144000. there would be no need to separate the 12 children. I doubt anyone who would have read Johns letter in the 1st century would have though he was speaking about the whole church throughout all time.

I doubt that most of what John wrote is understood in a 21st Century mind set. And this is why the Church goes in so many different directions. How would you know how much they understood in the 1st century (pure speculation).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I doubt that most of what John wrote is understood in a 21st Century mind set. And this is why the Church goes in so many different directions. How would you know how much they understood in the 1st century (pure speculation).

I think we would know by the way they thought in the day. Everyone knew what Isreal was. Everyone knew what it meant to be 12 tribes. and everyone would have understood things from this perspective.

It was not until much later that the church got away from using these terms and started to take them as symbols rather than taking them literally. (remember also. John, being of the 12 tribes, would have understood this also. He was brought up with OT theology so this is how he would have based things.

I also think it is pure speculation to think otherwise..or as you believe, that John meant it not in a literal sense. but symbolic sense. so I guess it could go both ways correct?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, this maybe true, but, he wasn't writing to unbelieving Jews, he was writing to Jews who became Christians. You guys keep put up this wall between us and them...augh!

I never said he was writing to unbelieving Jews, so why would you speculate I did? I am not putting up a wall of anything. he is writing to those of the 12 tribes who were scattered abroad who were believing jews and part of a church.

it is not us who are putting up a barrier. it is you guys.. assuming we are talking about all jews. and not just saved ones.

 

[zone]

I think we would know by the way they thought in the day. Everyone knew what Isreal was. Everyone knew what it meant to be 12 tribes. and everyone would have understood things from this perspective.

It was not until much later that the church got away from using these terms and started to take them as symbols rather than taking them literally. (remember also. John, being of the 12 tribes, would have understood this also. He was brought up with OT theology so this is how he would have based things.

I also think it is pure speculation to think otherwise..or as you believe, that John meant it not in a literal sense. but symbolic sense. so I guess it could go both ways correct?

John was a Christian, EG.