Christians are Israel

[zone]

Paul did not say they were given 40 years. He said they were blinded in part until the fulness of the gentiles has come

news flash. the fulness of the gentiles has not come yet. They STILL control Jerusalem. And they STILL are the majority of the church.

You can keep saying no gap all you want. You will not convince me. you have shown absolutely no proof there is no gap. only speculation. And youi did not help yourself saying paul said they only had 40 years.

"Jerusalem got 40 years to repent. then she was leveled. just as prophesied."

i never said Paul said it.
that's what's they they got before Titus came.
just under 40 years.

total destruction.

today is a carnal counterfeit.
that land is covered with innocent blood.
the people who set up the State of Israel aren't ancient israelites.
they're Gog/Magog. and so are the helpers in America and Britian and Canada and everywhere else the Zionist agenda rules (thanks to Scofield and Dispensational heresy)
and they're just getting started.

Global Gulag coming.

 

[zone]

News flash. Isreal does not have to be pure blood.
In the old ways of customs. A child who was born of a father who was born of a father who could be traqced back to abraham isaac and jacob through jacobs 12 sons is a natural child of isreal.

jews today trace their jewishness through their mother.
not their father.

there are no records of lineage. all gone.

judaism has nothing to do with the OT.
it's Mystery, Babylon.

when Christianity became the True Faith, the True Fulfillment of authentic Judaism (Moses) when Jesus came, unbelieving jews fell into a ditch and followed Talmud, the oral Traditions, and it is a vile and dead end religion.
evil.

 

[jimmydiggs]

lol./ Like God. I am wishing that no one (jew, arab, or any other religion or culture) would perish

I sure hope you don't base it on culture/race/religion.

This guy is a little over the top, but for the most part... from what I have seen dispys say themselves, this guy is more right than wrong.


[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkOluULXTGw[/video]

 

[zone]

why do you have so much hate for these people?

what people?
what hate?

last time i checked it's not me passing hate laws and thought crime laws.
we're PC'd to death so that just being upfront about what the Bible says, what Jesus said is now hate.
and this is unfaithfulness on our part.

what disgusts me is that the church has bought into the most obvious sleight-of-hand and hoax in spite of the very warnings this would happen.

Beware the Leaven of the Pharisees.

we have set up a (false) people/country/false religion as the object of our devotion and faith, we have pushed Jesus and His church to the side as a BLIP in a fantasy scenario.
everything we have that should have gone to Christians first and the spreading of the Gospel has gone to a Fascist Racist country in the Middle East.

MILLIONS murdered! and millions more to go.

a straight and simple reading of the bible knows absolutely nothing of this dispensational nonsense.
it's not in there!

but it's written into the footnotes of counterfeit Bibles bought and paid for by a certain small cabal.
Untermeyer and Oxford paid Scofield to completely rewrite Redemptive History.

it's all BOGUS

 

[crossnote]

That country in the Middle East called Israel has plenty of Old Testament Scriptures prophesying their dispersal into the four corners of the earth, to be mistreated wherever they fled but in the latter days God would bring them back into their land and they would no longer be two nations but one. To these same people God said He would bless those who blessed Abraham and his seed and curse those who cursed them.
The Acts 1:6-7 passage, I see hasn't been answered, implying Israel being the center of an earthly Theocracy in the future. The disciples having just spent 3yrs. with Jesus would have known better not to ask this if it weren't a future event.
The early Church being predominately Jewish was Millennial in it's eschatology. It was as the Gentiles became the overwhelming populace in the Church. Increasingly Greek thought with it's Platonic influence played heavily in turning a literal view of Scripture into a playground of allegories and spiritualizing of the Text. Thus many OT prophecies literally pointing to Israel were spiritualized to include or worse to have the Church replace Israel. Unfortunately in this area the Church Fathers heavily influenced the Reformers like Luther and Zwingli and Calvin, especially the latter two.
It's funny that the Church willingly embraces the promises to Israel but not the curses.
Yes we have 'spiritual' Israel who by faith are believers in Yeshua and comprise both Jew and Gentile. Yet there still is a plan of God to deal with national Israel, including bringing them back into the Land, putting them through Jacob's trouble and revealing Himself plainly to them.
Consider this. Up to the time of Christ's first coming all of God's predictions had literal fulfillment, why all of a sudden they take on some kind of a spiritualized Gnostic fulfillment?

 

[Laodicea]

Jesus is the true Israel and those who are in Christ are a part of Israel. Any not in Christ are not part of true Israel.

 

[WolfInOxHide]

Christians are Israel

Such ideas will raise your old testament from the ashes.

(To zoom in a little more closely, most Christians are "Judah", a significant player of a much greater "Israel")

Ezekiel 4

 

[Abiding]

why get bogged down with the twelve tribes....call them Israel. Paul said only the believers were true Israel.
The believing remnant of Israel are on the vine with gentiles. one new man. Makes believing gentiles Israel.<-----------------thats a period

 

[crossnote]

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(Rom 11:1)

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
(Rom 11:11)

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
(Rom 11:18)

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(Rom 11:23)

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(Rom 11:25)

 

[Red33]

Wasnt there something about being grafted in? and the twain became one?
And....................................................ill stop there.

PeterT says this...

'When James was addressing the 12 tribes he was speaking to the church, 12 spiritual tribes'

Abiding and Zone do you both agree with PeterT's assessment that these twelve tribes James was addressing were 12 spiritual tribes of the church? Don't be bashful and speak right up so we can all hear you plainly.

 

[Red33]

Galatians 3:7
Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 6:16
And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

~

Israel of God-not the Israel after the flesh, among whom those teachers wish to enrol you; but the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith (Ga 3:9, 29; Ro 2:28, 29; Php 3:3).
JFBBC

And upon the Israel of God - The true church of God; all who are his true worshippers; see the note at Romans 2:28-29; Romans 9:6, note.
Barnes

The Israel of God - The true Christians, called here the Israel of God, to distinguish them from Israel according to the flesh. See the notes on Romans 2:29; Romans 4:12 (note).
Clarke

and upon the Israel of God; which is a further description of the persons, for whom he prays for these blessings; and is not to be understood by way of distinction from them, but as an amplification of their character; and as pointing out the Israel, by way of emphasis, the Israel, or Israelites indeed, the spiritual Israel, as distinct from Israel according to the flesh; see 1 Corinthians 10:18. The "Israel of God", or as the Arabic version reads it, "Israel the propriety of God"
Henry

And upon the Israel of God

The &#954;&#945;&#8054; and may be simply collective, in which case the Israel of God may be different from as many as walk, etc., and may mean truly converted Jews. Or the &#954;&#945;&#8054; may be explicative, in which case the Israel of God will define and emphasize as many as, etc., and will mean the whole body of Christians, Jewish and Gentile. In other words, they who walk according to this rule form the true Israel of God. The explicative &#954;&#945;&#8054; is at best doubtful here, and is rather forced, although clear instances of it may be found in 1 Corinthians 3:5; 1 Corinthians 15:38. It seems better to regard it as simply connective. Then &#8005;&#963;&#959;&#953; will refer to the individual Christians, Jewish and Gentile, and Israel of God to the same Christians, regarded collectively, and forming the true messianic community.
Vincent

Upon the true Israel, whose praise is from God and not from men; Ro 2:29.
Geneva

6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule - Glorying only in the cross of Christ. Being crucified to the world. And, Created anew. Peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel, that is, the Church, of God - Which consists of all those, and those only, of every nation and kindred, who walk by this rule.
Wesley

"I'm not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith," he said. "There is nothing in the Night to honor Israel' that does that." In fact, trying to convert Jews is a "waste of time," he said. "The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They (already) have a faith structure." Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha'i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity, he says.
John Hagee
Houston Chronicle

Does this response mean that you believe those references to the (12) tribes are only spiritually symbolic and are not literal in any way and are meant to be taken as spiritual Israel made of both the belieivng Jew and Gentile? Let's get to the nitty gritty and say it plainly so that we can all know the truth that you believe.

 

[Red33]

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(Rom 11:1)

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
(Rom 11:11)

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
(Rom 11:18)

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(Rom 11:23)

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(Rom 11:25)

These verses of scripture are a plague to the 'amillennialist' and they want nothing to do with the real meaning and what they speak to concerning the nation and people of Israel who have been set aside in unbelief. They have a fit with them and they can do nothing but spirtualize some contrived meaning for the sake of their own sanity in what they believe. If they could they would deem them uninspired and reject them as something added to God's whole counsel, but they can't do that and they come up with some half cocked explanation that leaves the average believer shaking their head in bewilderment, as if to say 'what in the world are you talking about and what planet are you from'?

Paul is very clear in what he is communicating, but these 'amillennialist' don't want any part of it and they stay away from this chapter in (Rom 11). There is no other conclusion to make except that they treat this passage of (Rom 11) in a deceitful manner (reading from others who do the same) and there are motives involved in that treatment that they don't want you to know, secret stuff that they keep hidden in the chamber of their imaginations along with the liberty of a few adult beverages to go with it. You just don't see any 'cutsie' pictures flashing of these things on this site.

 

[zone]

Red, as mentioned previously, but apparently it bears repeating again: i have absolutely nothing to say to you, at any time.
you can post directly to me by name, you can publicize your desire for calamity to fall upon me so you can laugh; you can call me every name in your book of names; you can say anything your heart desires about me (as you have, and will).
i am not in dialogue with you, at all.
just so you know for certain.
not interested, don't care.
okay?

 

[Red33]

Red, what is the significance of the number twelve? Do you think that numbers in the scriptures have significance? 12 tribes, 12 apostles, 12 gates, 12 foundations... The very fact that James was addressing Christians in His letter and calling them the 12 tribes speaks truth that the Christian church is a continuation of God's People, an not a (parenthetical) age, in which you would call plan B.

Let me take the liberty to enlighten you that the number 12 has symbolic meaning, it stands for God's divine government in which He the king and ruler of. But perhaps you are unteachable.

God has significance in all things He does and yes, even with numbers, but just for the sake of being practical in our understanding Jesus did call and hand pick (12) apostles (disciples). It was not (11) or (10) but it was (12) and they were literal human beings of the flesh from the children of Israel that walked with Christ on planet earth, who had to eat and keep themselves clean and get their sleep for the work they were called to do. By the same token we have the (12) tribes of the children of Israel and concerning that great city that will come down from heaven, the new Jerusalem, we have (12) literal gates that represent (12) literal tribes from the children of Israel with (12) literal foundations that represent the (12) literal apostles from the children of Israel, who were called by the grace of God. It is a spiritual city alright with spiritual people living in that city with a spiritual bride who are all literally alive and glorified.

What does Paul discuss in (Rom 11) concerning his people?

 

[zone]

hi crossnote.
you've been here at CC a relatively short time, and may not be aware all the questions and concerns about OT fulfillments; who is israel; the hebrew language, etc....have been addressed here at CC by non-millennialists, and New Covenant theology believers for years. in detail, point by point.

and have been addressed by non-millennialists (including Jesus) for 2000 years. He never at any time spoke of a future, temporary physical 1,000 year reign on this earth.

addressing the subject of a future 1,000 year earthly kingdom, addressing a third temple (Ezekiel's?), and what has to happen in this future 1,000 years can begin to reveal the truth of the matter in reasonably short order.

if there's no future 1,000 years...the rest comes undone quite quickly.

there are lots of threads addressing all the concerns. no one should be basing an entire theological (and soteriological) system around a few verses in Romans 11...or at least, let's see what they REALLY say.
zone

 

[zone]

it will be in a thread such as this that the true colors of some are revealed.
the matter will stand or fall on its own merits, based on the scriptures.

some people, when it comes to dispensationalism will abandon any previous facade of brotherly love; unity of the body and so on.
it will be seen that they not only consider amillennialists and covenant theologians not saved christians (and usually devils and/or murderers, etc), but through their own rantings will be revealed the very heart of the fallacies and corruption of dispensational theology.

sometimes the best witnesses against dispensationalism are the dispensational fanatics themselves.

i do wish virtually all deceived by dispensationalism and/or millennialism the best, hoping they eventually see it for the unfortunate disaster it has become.
but painful repentance would be needed...forgiveness and cleasning by the blood for all that false teaching. and amends made to all those bulldozed by dispy fanaticism.
so it will be difficult. many refuse to consider they have been wrong.
some do though. their testimonies are everywhere. they explain how they reasoned through scripture. how it took them years to purge their beliefs of the stronghold of dispensationalism.
their work can be quite beneficial to those still caught in dispensationalism and christian zionism.

to each their own.

the op is:

Re: Christians are Israel

and yes....Christians are Israel.

the State of Israel in the Middle East; or people called Israelis have nothing to do with Biblical Israel (either the ancient unbelieving cut-off; or the believing who became Christians).

 

[Red33]

Red, as mentioned previously, but apparently it bears repeating again: i have absolutely nothing to say to you, at any time.
you can post directly to me by name, you can publicize your desire for calamity to fall upon me so you can laugh; you can call me every name in your book of names; you can say anything your heart desires about me (as you have, and will).
i am not in dialogue with you, at all.
just so you know for certain.
not interested, don't care.
okay?

I hope you don't mind if I continue to respond to some of the things that you post so that others can see the contrast in what you believe about the church and Israel and what we have been given in the scriptures. It is your tongue and you are the one that controls it and what comes out of it and it is the same for all of us, isn't that right? You only have one name but what you believe about Israel and the church is quite abstract. You will be receiving an email from an old friend soon if not already. I hope it brightens your day and on your outlook on the future. Maybe this picture will find you wanting.

 

[zone]

whatever you say Red.
try to refrain from being childish in your attempts to verify dispensationalism.
try to refrain from expressing your paranoia about a little cult here who is against you personally, who gets together on some island getting drunk because amillennialism is true and dispensationalism isn't.
just state your case and leave me out of it...i know you can't, your hatred (and resentment) runs so deep.

but i'll make every effort not to take offense and to forgive you in advance - you're going to need it.
if the old friend who will be emailing is you, please don't.
i won't read it, and will block you from any possible contact.
you have nothing to teach me, aside from gratitude that i do not believe what you do.

do you understand yet?
i am not for you.
thanks for your cooperation on this particular matter.

 

[spirit1st]

Christains are Not *Israel ! But we are grafted into the New Priest tribe ! As jews and have the tribe of judah ! Salvation is only of the jews !

Joh_4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Heb_7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rev_1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev_5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Joh_10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Rom_15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

1Co_12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Abiding]

PeterT says this...

'When James was addressing the 12 tribes he was speaking to the church, 12 spiritual tribes'

Abiding and Zone do you both agree with PeterT's assessment that these twelve tribes James was addressing were 12 spiritual tribes of the church? Don't be bashful and speak right up so we can all hear you plainly.

Appears to me that those addressed are the twelve tribes of Israel scattered abroad. Doesnt say
whether they were in the church or not. Whats your point? why the theatrics?