Christians are Israel

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63

Tell us. When did jesus come back in the clouds. destroy ALL kingdoms. consume them, and set up his own kingdom. I see many evil kingdoms roaming the earth now. and have seen many since Christ left this earth, You know. the time the disciples were told we would see Christ come back the same way he left, with power and glory


The OT prophesied this would happen.. It also prophesies after this time Isreal will be restored (after they repent)

Why is it so hard? Because it is not true. People are looking at their beliefs and not looking at the whole picture.

Those last passages you spoke of does not go with the prophesies. God will destroy every nation (has not happened) he will destroy those who have plundered his people (isreal) has not happened. All the world (every man woman and child alive) will see him return in glory, and know he is there God..(has not happened)

If this is the kingdom God promised, of peace. of love and joy.. Then I have to tell you. I do not think much of God. Look at all the evil we see. the rapes, the plunder, the mass murder, the disease, the sin and evil that is all over the world. God said he would wipe this out, and as the passage said, CRUSH IT when he sets up his kingdom.. Do you really believe all this has happened?

as you said. why is it so hard for you to understand?
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds

24He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weedsc among the wheat and went away. 26So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27And the servantsd of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. 41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It's actually worse than faulty. What it does is make people misunderstand the word "Israel" in relation to the end times. If the prophecy is "All nations will attack Israel, and I will defend Israel" then our understanding of the nature of "Israel" becomes critical to the understanding of the prophetic fulfillment of the words.
well the "I will defend Israel" idea would be in major area. according to scripture/ god defends her. and he is the one which stops the attack on her.

so again, try to figure out what people believe, we do not all believe in this false ideology that god needs us to defend anyone.


If we understand "Israel" as "that little strip of land in the Middle East that men call Israel" then prophecy would be fulfilled by a military attack on said strip of land.
well this is what God said will happen. do we mistrust god or call him a liar? how else can we interpret it?

If we understand "Israel" as "Christianity" then prophecy would be fulfilled by an attack on Christianity; and not necessarily a military attack.
well we can't do this. god says when he stops the attack. there will be so much dead flesh on the earth that birds will have their fill for days. this is not symbolic. it is physical. and it is armies.. and no it is not fulfilled. because their is no peace, and every nation on the earth and king of those nations are bowing to Christ, like it said they would after this attack is defeated.

Furthermore, with an incorrect understanding, deception by way of manipulation becomes a simple thing. For instance, suppose that "Israel" is intended by God to be understood as "Christianity" (as some here understand it). But Satan wants to deceive, so as ruler of the powers of this age, Satan arranges to gather a group of people (whom no one has any real assurance of carnal lineage) into the Middle East and affirms the name of "Israel" in his political courts. He then manipulates other people to "rise up against Israel" and it is done. He then appears in a display of "all power" over Jerusalem and calls down fire on the "invaders" utterly destroying their armies and "saving Israel" from "all her enemies"- he also appears with myraid angels and is claiming to be none other than "Jesus Christ returned" and, presto- Satan has "fulfilled prophecy" and tons of "Christians" start singing his praises and kissing his feet.
one must assume god owuld let this happen. the fallacy in all these beliefs is they deny the power of god to know who real isreal. and control history in a way this would not happen.

Jesus said when he returns we will see him in the clouds, we will see him destroy evil and all nations apposed to him, and there will be no doubt. If what you claim is true and may happen. it would not even matterl, god warned against this., he said if someone claims to be me, and does not appear as I said I would he is not me.


Now, this ruse only works if a person has misunderstood the nature of "Israel" through "dispensationalism" teachings (and would aid immensely if virtually everything they were taught was error). If a person knows that "Israel" means "Christianity" then Satan's little ruse- while visually impressive- does not fulfil prophecy (or, rather, not the prophecy he is attempting to deceive the Christians into believing he has fulfilled).

But thankfully, the scripture tells us exactly when these things are appointed to take place, so no one with knowledge of the scripture can actually ever be deceived. The attack on Christianity (Israel) will begin with the coming of the King of Confusion and all his host on the 10th day of the 10th month. There is a reason this date is the only date thrice recorded in the old covenant; there is also a reason this date is the one and only date commanded by God to be written down.

Eze 24:1 in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, write thee the name of the day, even of this same day: the king of Babylon set himself against Jerusalem this same day.

Almost everything everyone believes concerning prophecy is wrong. Fortunately for us, God is making this incredibly simple for His chosen by having written down the exact days of the months on which the events are to take place.

there is major problems with this issue.

1. That prophesy concerned babylon only
2. it assumes even satan could pull this off. and God would allow him to..
3. God told us what signs there would be (matt 24) but he would not tell us when the end would be, even he did not know the time of his return. thus your logic is seriously flawed.
4. it ignores ALL the things whihc was said would happen at this time, and trying to relegate these things to the church do not fit. because they have not happened unless we symbolise them away. Nostradamus is a god of figurative fulfillment.. god is a God of literal fulfiment. he uses this to prove he is God.

if you want to follow a God like nostrodomus, feel free. i will follow god who literal fulfills all things he claims he will do,,
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds

24He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weedsc among the wheat and went away. 26So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27And the servantsd of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. 41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
:rolleyes:

So this explains what i posted?? I should be offended. But I know your my sis, and maybe do not know any better.. but wow!!!!

That was in response to someone posting that this HAD HAPPENED ALREADY.. so this is your answer to how it happened already? I am confused


this is showing the end.. when all things are done.. Not something that happened in 70 AD, or at the death of christ
 
Dec 1, 2012
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Will ALL of Israel be saved as the scriptures declare? If so then who would be left seemingly as how Israel is saved no matter what?
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48

Tell us. When did jesus come back in the clouds. destroy ALL kingdoms. consume them, and set up his own kingdom. I see many evil kingdoms roaming the earth now. and have seen many since Christ left this earth, You know. the time the disciples were told we would see Christ come back the same way he left, with power and glory

The phrase coming on clouds does not always mean 2nd advent, it is judgmental language or language that describes the Lord's involvement with mankind. It's used all over the OT and you should know better. Even though it doesn't seem like Christ is ruling at times, and evil still abounds at times in this world, doesn't denote that Christ isn't in charge or ruling, for He is. It is Christ who allows these evil kingdoms to exist for His good reason, I would guess so that His grace and mercy can abound. Besides these earthly kingdoms don't last. Christ gives them authority, even if they are evil. Romans 13:1.

Christ will come back with power and glory, with judgment for the wicked and His reward for the ones in His righteousness; The eternal state.
IMO, you put too much attention on the temporal.


The OT prophesied this would happen.. It also prophesies after this time Isreal will be restored (after they repent)

This is the final state. Old Israel is only the anti-type to the New Jerusalem, the whole earth restored, not just one little piece of land.



Why is it so hard? Because it is not true. People are looking at their beliefs and not looking at the whole picture.


Including you?

Those last passages you spoke of does not go with the prophesies. God will destroy every nation (has not happened) he will destroy those who have plundered his people (isreal) has not happened. All the world (every man woman and child alive) will see him return in glory, and know he is there God..(has not happened)

If this is the kingdom God promised, of peace. of love and joy.. Then I have to tell you. I do not think much of God. Look at all the evil we see. the rapes, the plunder, the mass murder, the disease, the sin and evil that is all over the world. God said he would wipe this out, and as the passage said, CRUSH IT when he sets up his kingdom.. Do you really believe all this has happened?

as you said. why is it so hard for you to understand?
Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome all have been destroyed. They do not exist today (as the Satanic worldly kingdom they were back then). Also, in order to have a revised Rome, it would have to be made of exactly the same area would it not? If you include Germany, Britain, France etc. that would make a new Roman empire, not a revised one.

We are not going to agree, so I'll just let you have the last word and be done. God Bless you EG.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
:rolleyes:

So this explains what i posted?? I should be offended. But I know your my sis, and maybe do not know any better.. but wow!!!!

That was in response to someone posting that this HAD HAPPENED ALREADY.. so this is your answer to how it happened already? I am confused


this is showing the end.. when all things are done.. Not something that happened in 70 AD, or at the death of christ
okay EG.
i'm glad you're not offended, because we're posting at cross purposes is all, from what i can see.
i posted this to show there's no future millennium.
if that's true, then what about the rest of the futurist hermeneutic?:confused::D
 
U

unclefester

Guest
This is too good not to post. Gonna attach a second part (post) that contains six commentaries by names we all know. I hope all following this thread takes the few minutes required to read it. God bless :)

The Israel of God
(Galatians 6:16)

by Michael Marlowe, Dec. 2004.

14 ἐμοὶ δὲ μὴ γένοιτο καυχᾶσθαι εἰ μὴ ἐν τῷ σταυρῷ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, δι᾽ οὗ ἐμοὶ κόσμος ἐσταύρωται κἀγὼ κόσμῳ. 15 οὔτε γὰρ περιτομή τί ἐστιν οὔτε ἀκροβυστία, ἀλλὰ καινὴ κτίσις. 16 καὶ ὅσοι τῷ κανόνι τούτῳ στοιχήσουσιν, εἰρήνη ἐπ᾽ αὐτοὺς καὶ ἔλεος, καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ.

14 But far be it from me to boast, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.



The proper interpretation and translation of the last phrase in Galatians 6:16 has become a matter of controversy in the past century or so. Formerly it was not a matter of controversy. With few exceptions, "The Israel of God" was understood as a name for the Church here. [1] The καὶ ("and") which precedes the phrase ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ ("upon the Israel of God") was understood as an explicative καὶ. This understanding of the grammar is reflected in the Revised Standard Version's "Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God," and in the New International Version's "even to the Israel of God." It is not necessary, however, to understand the καὶ as an explicative in order to get substantially the same sense. If it be regarded as an ordinary connective καὶ, as Marvin Vicent says, "The ὅσοι ['as many as'] will refer to the individual Christians, Jewish and Gentile, and Israel of God to the same Christians, regarded collectively, and forming the true messianic community." (Word Studies in the New Testament vol. 4, p. 180). So the rendering "and upon the Israel of God" (KJV and others) is acceptable enough, if it is not misunderstood. In any case, it seems clear that in this verse Paul cannot be pronouncing a benediction upon persons who are not included in the phrase "as many as shall walk by this rule" (the rule of boasting only in the cross). The entire argument of the epistle prevents any idea that here in 6:16 he would give a blessing to those who are not included in this group.
The phrase has become controversial because the traditional interpretation conflicts with principles of interpretation associated with Dispensationalism. Dispensationalists are interested in maintaining a sharp distinction between "Israel" and "the Church" across a whole range of theological matters pertaining to prophecy, ecclesiology, and soteriology. They are not comfortable with the idea that here Paul is using the phrase "Israel of God" in a sense that includes Gentiles, because this undermines their contention that "the Church" is always carefully distinguished from "Israel" in Scripture. This is a major tenet of dispensationalist hermeneutics. C.I. Scofield in his tract, Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth (New York, Loizeaux Brothers, 1888) wrote, "Comparing, then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, [a careful Bible student ] finds that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct, and future destiny--all is contrast." Likewise Charles Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism Today (Chicago, 1965) explained that the "basic premise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity." (pp. 44-45).
The traditional Protestant and Catholic approach to this matter is quite different, however, because in these traditions "Israel" is often interpreted typologically. The Church is understood to be a "Spiritual Israel," so that many things said in connection with Israel in Scripture are applied to the Church. For instance, the words of Psalm 122, "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee," are understood as in Matthew Henry's commentary: "The peace and welfare of the gospel church ... is to be earnestly desired and prayed for." This is in keeping with the method of the apostles, as for instance in Galatians 4:26, where the apostle Paul speaks of "the Jerusalem that is above." Therefore when Paul speaks of "the Israel of God" in 6:16, the meaning of this expression is readily grasped. Rather than seeing a contrast, a deeply meaningful typological relationship is perceived.
As a young Christian I attended a church where the Dispensationalist approach was taught, and I remember how it was frequently supported by the statement that in Scripture "the Church is never called Israel." Galatians 6:16 was explained as if the phrase "and upon the Israel of God" referred to a Jewish subset of those people who "walk by this rule," that is, the Christians of Jewish ethnic background as distinguished from those who are of non-Jewish background. Apparently this unqualified assertion that the Church is never spoken of as "Israel" continues to be important to dispensationalists, because in a recent article a prominent dispensationalist author calls it a "horrendous mistake" when "the Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 is understood to include Gentiles. [2] There does not seem to be any reason for this interpretation aside from the desire of dispensationalists to exclude all typological interpretations and to defend their contention that "the Church is never called Israel."
Aside from typological considerations, this dispensationalist explanation of the meaning of "The Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 seems contrary to the tenor of the epistle, in which it is said that "in Christ Jesus ... there is neither Jew nor Greek." This is the central idea of the epistle, as expressed in the third chapter: "you are all one in Christ Jesus ... if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring" (3:26-29). Scofield himself acknowledged this when he wrote, "In the Church the distinction of Jew and Gentile disappears." This raises several questions. If "in the Church the distinction of Jew and Gentile disappears," as Scofield says, then why would Paul make such a distinction in 6:16 ? And if it is true that the Church is never called Israel in Scripture, and "all is contrast" between the two, then in what sense can Christians of Jewish background be called "Israel" any longer, if they are in the Church? If someone in the Church is being called "Israel," then the all-important distinction between Israel and the Church has been breached. If it is said that people of Jewish background may still be called "Israel" after they have become Christians, then it must be admitted that the strict terminological distinction between "Israel" and "the Church" has broken down at this point. Further, if it is said that only persons of Jewish backgound can be so called, then we may rightly ask what has become of the teaching that "In the Church the distinction of Jew and Gentile disappears"? Do we have a separate class of "Jewish Christians" who alone are entitled to the name "Israel of God"? If so, what is the significance of this? Are there two types of Christianity, two Churches? My own experience of dispensationalist teaching suggests to me that in fact this is the view held by many dispensationalists today: the idea is that there is a "Jewish" Christianity and a "Gentile" Christianity, and in some sense the "Jewish" Christians are thought to be more important and especially favored by God. [3]
The older dispensationalist writers, such as Darby, Scofield, and Chafer, avoided some of these embarrassing questions and implications because their distinction between Israel and the Church was more consistent and more radical. Scofield believed that the Jews of the end times were to be saved according to the Law of Moses, with renewed animal sacrifices. His scheme of interpretation envisioned a time when the parenthetical "Church age" has ended and the Law of Moses is reinstituted for salvific purposes. After this change of "dispensations" people will be saved according to a different gospel, the "Gospel of the Kingdom." Paul's doctrine (called the "Gospel of the Grace of God") was no longer in effect. Paul's teaching on the unity of the Church did not apply because the Church has been "raptured" and is no longer in the earth, and God is no longer dealing with the Church. In this manner the distinction between "Israel" and "the Church" was upheld without denying the unity of the body of Christ. But it is difficult to speak of Scofield's "Israel" of the end-times as consisting of "Jewish Christians," because they are not in the Church, and they are not dealt with on the same terms as the Christians who are of the Church. They are "God's earthly people," according to Scofield, as distinguished from the Church, who are God's "heavenly people." They are the "wife of Jehovah" and not the "bride of Christ," and so forth. Such teachings of the classic dispensationalist theology rigorously maintained the distinction between "Israel" and "the Church." If this distinction is to be upheld in Galatians 6:16 then presumably the "Israel of God" must be taken as a reference to the eschatological Israel who are to be saved by a different gospel, after Paul's own gospel dispensation has ended. [4] But one rarely hears this kind of pure and radical dispensationalist teaching now. Today dispensationalists seem to be in a muddle, having moved away from consistency in distinguishing Israel and the Church. Israel may now be spoken of as a part of the Church, and so there is a special and privileged class of "Jewish Christians" within the body of Christ. [5]
These features of dispensationalism raise many serious theological problems which I will not go into here. My main purpose here has been to show what notions are being brought to the text when a dispensationalist says it is a "horrendous mistake" to interpret Paul's "Israel of God" as a way of referring to the Church in Galatians 6:16. The dispensationalist complaint against the traditional understanding of Galatians 6:16 is, in my opinion, an example of sectarian "end-times prophecy" baggage being brought to the text, and it does not represent a serious attempt to understand the phrase in its context.
Other agendas are at work among non-dispensationalist scholars who have argued against the traditional view. When I was a seminary student in the early 1990's one liberal professor's favorite topic was "anti-semitism" in the Church, and he was an outspoken opponent of evangelization of the Jews. This professor taught a course on the Pauline epistles in which he objected to the traditional interpretation on the grounds that it was anti-semitic. He maintained that in Galatians 6:16b Paul was blessing the nation of Israel, not appropriating the name "Israel" for the Church, nor even using the phrase "Israel of God" for Christians of Jewish background. In his opinion, Paul's statement should be read as an affirmation of the kind of religious pluralism that prevails in liberal circles. I am not aware of an exegetical commentary which adopts this very dubious view, but the HarperCollins Study Bible (1993) prepared by liberal scholars does have a note at Galatians 6:16 which reads, "Israel of God, the church as the true Israel ... or, alternately, the whole people of Israel." Although the annotator of Galatians here (indentified as Richard B. Hays of Duke University in the list of contributors) goes on to say "the argument of Galatians appears to support the former interpretation," the alternative he gives is not "Jewish Christians" but "the whole people of Israel." The pluralism and the opposition to Jewish evangelism I encountered at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary is probably one reason for this, and also one reason why the New Revised Standard Version (1989) revisers inserted the word "and" before the RSV's "upon the Israel of God." Here again a good deal of baggage is being brought to the text, consisting of ideas which are completely foreign to Paul's gospel.
It may be wondered whether some dispensationalists have also adopted the view that "the Israel of God" simply refers to Israel according to the flesh. As noted above, it would be entirely in keeping with the earlier dispensationalist writers to maintain that Paul is blessing Jews who are outside of the Church, as the "earthly people of God." The fascination with the secular state of Israel which is so characteristic of dispensationalists today has apparently led many of them to think that the restoration of the Jews as "God's people" has already occured, despite the fact that the Church has not been raptured and the Jews continue to reject Christ. Dispensationalists insist that this unbelieving Israel according to the flesh must be blessed by everyone. If this is the case, why indeed should Paul not be blessing them as the "Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16? But of course the premise is all wrong, because there is no blessing for those who reject Christ.
In conclusion, I will state my opinion that the attempt to limit the meaning of "Israel of God" to the carnal sons of Judah betrays a fundamentally wrong approach to biblical interpretation, and to New Testament theology in particular. I give below some excerpts from writers whom I believe to be more in touch with the meaning of Paul's expression. Even in these authors I find, however, an insufficient appreciation of Paul's expression. "Peace be ... upon the Israel of God" is not so much a polemical or ironic usage directed against the Judaizers (Luther and Calvin) as a positive blessing and affirmation of the Church as the true spiritual Israel. It is a mistake to see bitterness in this blessing.


The Israel of God (Galatians 6:16)
 
U

unclefester

Guest
Commentaries attached :

Justin Martyr on "the true spiritual Israel" [6]

Jesus Christ ... is the new law, and the new covenant, and the expectation of those who out of every people wait for the good things of God. For the true spiritual Israel, and the descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ.

John Chrysostom on Galatians 6:15-16 [7]

Observe the power of the Cross, to what a pitch it hath raised him! not only hath it put to death for him all mundane affairs, but hath set him far above the Old Dispensation. What can be comparable to this power? for the Cross hath persuaded him, who was willing to be slain and to slay others for the sake of circumcision, to leave it on a level with uncircumcision, and to seek for things strange and marvellous and above the heavens. This our rule of life he calls "a new creature," both on account of what is past, and of what is to come; of what is past, because our soul, which had grown old with the oldness of sin, hath been all at once renewed by baptism, as if it had been created again. Wherefore we require a new and heavenly rule of life. And of things to come, because both the heaven and the earth, and all the creation, shall with our bodies be translated into incorruption. Tell me not then, he says, of circumcision, which now availeth nothing; (for how shall it appear, when all things have undergone such a change?) but seek the new things of grace. For they who pursue these things shall enjoy peace and amity, and may properly be called by the name of "Israel." While they who hold contrary sentiments, although they be descended from him and bear his appellation, have yet fallen away from all these things, both the relationship and the name itself. But it is in their power to be true Israelites, who keep this rule, who desist from the old ways, and follow after grace.

Martin Luther on Galatians 6:16

Lectures on Galatians, 1519.[8] "Walk" is the same verb that is used above (5:25). "Walk," that is, go, by this rule. By what rule? It is this rule, that they are new creatures in Christ, that they shine with the true righteousness and holiness which come from faith, and that they do not deceive themselves and others with the hypocritical righteousness and holiness which come from the Law. Upon the latter there will be wrath and tribulation, and upon the former will rest peace and mercy. Paul adds the words "upon the Israel of God." He distinguishes this Israel from the Israel after the flesh, just as in 1 Cor. 10:18 he speaks of those who are the Israel of the flesh, not the Israel of God. Therefore peace is upon Gentiles and Jews, provided that they go by the rule of faith and the Spirit.

Lectures on Galatians, 1535.[9] "Upon the Israel of God." Here Paul attacks the false apostles and the Jews, who boasted about their fathers, their election, the Law, etc. (Rom. 9:4-5). It is as though he were saying: "The Israel of God are not the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel but those who, with Abraham the believer (3:9), believe in the promises of God now disclosed in Christ, whether they are Jews or Gentiles."

John Calvin on Galatians 6:16 [10]

Upon the Israel of God. This is an indirect ridicule of the vain boasting of the false apostles, who vaunted of being the descendants of Abraham according to the flesh. There are two classes who bear this name, a pretended Israel, which appears to be so in the sight of men, and the Israel of God. Circumcision was a disguise before men, but regeneration is a truth before God. In a word, he gives the appellation of the Israel of God to those whom he formerly denominated the children of Abraham by faith (Galatians 3:29), and thus includes all believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were united into one church.

William Hendriksen on Galatians 6:16 [11]

Paul continues: 16. And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace (be) upon them and mercy, even upon the Israel of God. According to the preceding context, this rule is the one by which before God only this is of consequence, that a person places his complete trust in Christ crucified, and that, therefore, he regulates his life by this principle. This will mean that his life will be one of gratitude and Christian service out of love for his wonderful Savior. Upon those — all those and only those — who are governed by this rule peace and mercy are pronounced. Peace is the serenity of heart that is the portion of all those who have been justified by faith (Rom. 5:1). In the midst of the storms of life they are safe because they have found shelter in the cleft of the rock. In the day of wrath, wasteness, and desolation God "hides" all those who take refuge in him (Zeph. 1:2 ff.; 2:3; 3:12). See on 1:3. Hence, peace is spiritual wholeness and prosperity. Peace and mercy are inseparable. Had not the mercy of God been shown to his people they would not have enjoyed peace. God's mercy is his love directed toward sinners viewed in their wretchedness and need. See N.T.C. on Philippians, p. 142, for a list of over one hundred Old and New Testament passages in which this divine attribute is described.
So far the interpretation runs smoothly. A difficulty arises because of the last phrase of this verse. That last phrase is: "kai upon the Israel of God." Now, varying with the specific context in which this conjunction kai occurs, it can be rendered: and, and so, also, likewise, even, nevertheless, and yet, but, etc. Sometimes it is best left untranslated. Now when this conjunction is rendered and (as in A.V., A.R.V., N.E.B.), it yields this result, that after having pronounced God's blessing upon all those who place their trust exclusively in Christ Crucified, the apostle pronounces an additional blessing upon "the Israel of God," which is then interpreted to mean "the Jews," or "all such Jews as would in the future be converted to Christ," etc.
Now this interpretation tends to make Paul contradict his whole line of reasoning in this epistle. Over against the Judaizers' perversion of the gospel he has emphasized the fact that "the blessing of Abraham" now rests upon all those, and only those, "who are of faith" (3:9); that all those, and only those, "who belong to Christ" are "heirs according to the promise" (3:29). These are the very people who "walk by the Spirit" (5:16), and "are led by the Spirit" (5:18). Moreover, to make his meaning very clear, the apostle has even called special attention to the fact that God bestows his blessings on all true believers, regardless of nationality, race, social position, or sex: "There can be neither Jew nor Greek; there can be neither slave nor freeman; there can be no male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (3:28). By means of an allegory (4:21-31) he has re-emphasized this truth. And would he now, at the very close of the letter, undo all this by first of all pronouncing a blessing on "as many as" (or: "all") who walk by the rule of glorying in the cross, be they Jew or Gentile by birth, and then pronouncing a blessing upon those who do not (or: do not yet) walk by that rule? I refuse to accept that explanation. Appeals to the well-known "Eighteen petition prayer of the Jews," [12] to the meaning of the word Israel in other New Testament passages, etc., cannot rescue this interpretation. As to the former, Gal. 6:16 must be interpreted in accordance with its own specific context and in the light of the entire argument of this particular epistle. And as to the latter, it is very clear that in his epistles the apostle employs the term Israel in more than one sense. In fact, in the small compass of a single verse (Rom. 9:6) he uses it in two different senses. Each passage in which that term occurs must therefore be explained in the light of its context. Besides, Paul uses the term "the Israel of God" only in the present passage, nowhere else.
What, then, is the solution? In harmony with all of Paul's teaching in this epistle (and see aslo Eph. 2:14-22), and also in harmony with the broad, all-inclusive statement at the beginning of the present passage, where the apostle pronounces God's blessing of peace and mercy upon "as many as" shall walk by this rule, an object from which nothing can be subtracted and to which nothing can be added, it is my firm belief that those many translators and interpreters are right who have decided that kai, as here used, must be rendered even, or (with equal effect) must be left untranslated. Hence, what the apostle says is this: "And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace (be) upon them and mercy, even upon the Israel of God." Cf. Psalm 125:5. Upon all of God's true Israel, Jew or Gentile, all who truly glory in the cross, the blessing is pronounced.

O. Palmer Robertson on the Israel of God [13]

The recognition of a distinctive people who are the recipients of God’s redemptive blessings and yet who have a separate existence apart from the church of Jesus Christ creates insuperable theological problems. Jesus Christ has only one body and only one bride, one people that he claims as his own, which is the true Israel of God. This one people is made up of Jews and Gentiles who believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah.
 
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peterT

Guest
Forgive me brother, but I feel but you have no understanding in these matters. You're all over the place. Just my personal opinion. So I'm not going to respond and make things worse...BTW, I'm Bookends, not Zone. Peace out w the Lord!
I thought you were Zone Woops.

Still there are 5 kingdoms in Daniel2 not 4

Notes your words “Legs and feet” but it says
legs of iron 33His legs of iron
feet and toes 41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes.

Not legs and feet, 2 different kingdoms there not one

Looks like it’s you that has no understanding in these matters, but don’t worry it’s just a matter of time before the scales fall from your eyes, and you have to remember God has not revealed these things to the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes
 
A

Abiding

Guest

Hi all! Hope yur enjoying yur day!
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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This is too good not to post. Gonna attach a second part (post) that contains six commentaries by names we all know. I hope all following this thread takes the few minutes required to read it. God bless :)

The Israel of God
(Galatians 6:16)

by Michael Marlowe, Dec. 2004.

14 ἐμοὶ δὲ μὴ γένοιτο καυχᾶσθαι εἰ μὴ ἐν τῷ σταυρῷ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, δι᾽ οὗ ἐμοὶ κόσμος ἐσταύρωται κἀγὼ κόσμῳ. 15 οὔτε γὰρ περιτομή τί ἐστιν οὔτε ἀκροβυστία, ἀλλὰ καινὴ κτίσις. 16 καὶ ὅσοι τῷ κανόνι τούτῳ στοιχήσουσιν, εἰρήνη ἐπ᾽ αὐτοὺς καὶ ἔλεος, καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ.

14 But far be it from me to boast, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.



The proper interpretation and translation of the last phrase in Galatians 6:16 has become a matter of controversy in the past century or so. Formerly it was not a matter of controversy. With few exceptions, "The Israel of God" was understood as a name for the Church here. [1] The καὶ ("and") which precedes the phrase ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ ("upon the Israel of God") was understood as an explicative καὶ. This understanding of the grammar is reflected in the Revised Standard Version's "Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God," and in the New International Version's "even to the Israel of God." It is not necessary, however, to understand the καὶ as an explicative in order to get substantially the same sense. If it be regarded as an ordinary connective καὶ, as Marvin Vicent says, "The ὅσοι ['as many as'] will refer to the individual Christians, Jewish and Gentile, and Israel of God to the same Christians, regarded collectively, and forming the true messianic community." (Word Studies in the New Testament vol. 4, p. 180). So the rendering "and upon the Israel of God" (KJV and others) is acceptable enough, if it is not misunderstood. In any case, it seems clear that in this verse Paul cannot be pronouncing a benediction upon persons who are not included in the phrase "as many as shall walk by this rule" (the rule of boasting only in the cross). The entire argument of the epistle prevents any idea that here in 6:16 he would give a blessing to those who are not included in this group.

The phrase has become controversial because the traditional interpretation conflicts with principles of interpretation associated with Dispensationalism. Dispensationalists are interested in maintaining a sharp distinction between "Israel" and "the Church" across a whole range of theological matters pertaining to prophecy, ecclesiology, and soteriology. They are not comfortable with the idea that here Paul is using the phrase "Israel of God" in a sense that includes Gentiles, because this undermines their contention that "the Church" is always carefully distinguished from "Israel" in Scripture. This is a major tenet of dispensationalist hermeneutics. C.I. Scofield in his tract, Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth (New York, Loizeaux Brothers, 1888) wrote, "Comparing, then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, [a careful Bible student ] finds that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct, and future destiny--all is contrast." Likewise Charles Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism Today (Chicago, 1965) explained that the "basic premise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity." (pp. 44-45).

The traditional Protestant and Catholic approach to this matter is quite different, however, because in these traditions "Israel" is often interpreted typologically. The Church is understood to be a "Spiritual Israel," so that many things said in connection with Israel in Scripture are applied to the Church. For instance, the words of Psalm 122, "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee," are understood as in Matthew Henry's commentary: "The peace and welfare of the gospel church ... is to be earnestly desired and prayed for." This is in keeping with the method of the apostles, as for instance in Galatians 4:26, where the apostle Paul speaks of "the Jerusalem that is above." Therefore when Paul speaks of "the Israel of God" in 6:16, the meaning of this expression is readily grasped. Rather than seeing a contrast, a deeply meaningful typological relationship is perceived.

As a young Christian I attended a church where the Dispensationalist approach was taught, and I remember how it was frequently supported by the statement that in Scripture "the Church is never called Israel." Galatians 6:16 was explained as if the phrase "and upon the Israel of God" referred to a Jewish subset of those people who "walk by this rule," that is, the Christians of Jewish ethnic background as distinguished from those who are of non-Jewish background. Apparently this unqualified assertion that the Church is never spoken of as "Israel" continues to be important to dispensationalists, because in a recent article a prominent dispensationalist author calls it a "horrendous mistake" when "the Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 is understood to include Gentiles. [2] There does not seem to be any reason for this interpretation aside from the desire of dispensationalists to exclude all typological interpretations and to defend their contention that "the Church is never called Israel."

Aside from typological considerations, this dispensationalist explanation of the meaning of "The Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 seems contrary to the tenor of the epistle, in which it is said that "in Christ Jesus ... there is neither Jew nor Greek." This is the central idea of the epistle, as expressed in the third chapter: "you are all one in Christ Jesus ... if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring" (3:26-29). Scofield himself acknowledged this when he wrote, "In the Church the distinction of Jew and Gentile disappears." This raises several questions. If "in the Church the distinction of Jew and Gentile disappears," as Scofield says, then why would Paul make such a distinction in 6:16 ? And if it is true that the Church is never called Israel in Scripture, and "all is contrast" between the two, then in what sense can Christians of Jewish background be called "Israel" any longer, if they are in the Church? If someone in the Church is being called "Israel," then the all-important distinction between Israel and the Church has been breached. If it is said that people of Jewish background may still be called "Israel" after they have become Christians, then it must be admitted that the strict terminological distinction between "Israel" and "the Church" has broken down at this point.

Further, if it is said that only persons of Jewish backgound can be so called, then we may rightly ask what has become of the teaching that "In the Church the distinction of Jew and Gentile disappears"? Do we have a separate class of "Jewish Christians" who alone are entitled to the name "Israel of God"? If so, what is the significance of this? Are there two types of Christianity, two Churches? My own experience of dispensationalist teaching suggests to me that in fact this is the view held by many dispensationalists today: the idea is that there is a "Jewish" Christianity and a "Gentile" Christianity, and in some sense the "Jewish" Christians are thought to be more important and especially favored by God. [3]

The older dispensationalist writers, such as Darby, Scofield, and Chafer, avoided some of these embarrassing questions and implications because their distinction between Israel and the Church was more consistent and more radical. Scofield believed that the Jews of the end times were to be saved according to the Law of Moses, with renewed animal sacrifices. His scheme of interpretation envisioned a time when the parenthetical "Church age" has ended and the Law of Moses is reinstituted for salvific purposes. After this change of "dispensations" people will be saved according to a different gospel, the "Gospel of the Kingdom."

Paul's doctrine (called the "Gospel of the Grace of God") was no longer in effect. Paul's teaching on the unity of the Church did not apply because the Church has been "raptured" and is no longer in the earth, and God is no longer dealing with the Church. In this manner the distinction between "Israel" and "the Church" was upheld without denying the unity of the body of Christ.
But it is difficult to speak of Scofield's "Israel" of the end-times as consisting of "Jewish Christians," because they are not in the Church, and they are not dealt with on the same terms as the Christians who are of the Church. They are "God's earthly people," according to Scofield, as distinguished from the Church, who are God's "heavenly people." They are the "wife of Jehovah" and not the "bride of Christ," and so forth. Such teachings of the classic dispensationalist theology rigorously maintained the distinction between "Israel" and "the Church."

If this distinction is to be upheld in Galatians 6:16 then presumably the "Israel of God" must be taken as a reference to the eschatological Israel who are to be saved by a different gospel,
after Paul's own gospel dispensation has ended. [4] But one rarely hears this kind of pure and radical dispensationalist teaching now. Today dispensationalists seem to be in a muddle, having moved away from consistency in distinguishing Israel and the Church. Israel may now be spoken of as a part of the Church, and so there is a special and privileged class of "Jewish Christians" within the body of Christ. [5]

These features of dispensationalism raise many serious theological problems which I will not go into here. My main purpose here has been to show what notions are being brought to the text when a dispensationalist says it is a "horrendous mistake" to interpret Paul's "Israel of God" as a way of referring to the Church in Galatians 6:16. The dispensationalist complaint against the traditional understanding of Galatians 6:16 is, in my opinion, an example of sectarian "end-times prophecy" baggage being brought to the text, and it does not represent a serious attempt to understand the phrase in its context.

Other agendas are at work among non-dispensationalist scholars who have argued against the traditional view. When I was a seminary student in the early 1990's one liberal professor's favorite topic was "anti-semitism" in the Church, and he was an outspoken opponent of evangelization of the Jews. This professor taught a course on the Pauline epistles in which he objected to the traditional interpretation on the grounds that it was anti-semitic. He maintained that in Galatians 6:16b Paul was blessing the nation of Israel, not appropriating the name "Israel" for the Church, nor even using the phrase "Israel of God" for Christians of Jewish background. In his opinion, Paul's statement should be read as an affirmation of the kind of religious pluralism that prevails in liberal circles.

I am not aware of an exegetical commentary which adopts this very dubious view, but the HarperCollins Study Bible (1993) prepared by liberal scholars does have a note at Galatians 6:16 which reads, "Israel of God, the church as the true Israel ... or, alternately, the whole people of Israel." Although the annotator of Galatians here (indentified as Richard B. Hays of Duke University in the list of contributors) goes on to say "the argument of Galatians appears to support the former interpretation," the alternative he gives is not "Jewish Christians" but "the whole people of Israel." The pluralism and the opposition to Jewish evangelism I encountered at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary is probably one reason for this, and also one reason why the New Revised Standard Version (1989) revisers inserted the word "and" before the RSV's "upon the Israel of God." Here again a good deal of baggage is being brought to the text, consisting of ideas which are completely foreign to Paul's gospel.

It may be wondered whether some dispensationalists have also adopted the view that "the Israel of God" simply refers to Israel according to the flesh. As noted above, it would be entirely in keeping with the earlier dispensationalist writers to maintain that Paul is blessing Jews who are outside of the Church, as the "earthly people of God." The fascination with the secular state of Israel which is so characteristic of dispensationalists today has apparently led many of them to think that the restoration of the Jews as "God's people" has already occured, despite the fact that the Church has not been raptured and the Jews continue to reject Christ. Dispensationalists insist that this unbelieving Israel according to the flesh must be blessed by everyone. If this is the case, why indeed should Paul not be blessing them as the "Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16? But of course the premise is all wrong, because there is no blessing for those who reject Christ.

In conclusion, I will state my opinion that the attempt to limit the meaning of "Israel of God" to the carnal sons of Judah betrays a fundamentally wrong approach to biblical interpretation, and to New Testament theology in particular. I give below some excerpts from writers whom I believe to be more in touch with the meaning of Paul's expression. Even in these authors I find, however, an insufficient appreciation of Paul's expression. "Peace be ... upon the Israel of God" is not so much a polemical or ironic usage directed against the Judaizers (Luther and Calvin) as a positive blessing and affirmation of the Church as the true spiritual Israel. It is a mistake to see bitterness in this blessing.

The Israel of God (Galatians 6:16)
outstanding article, Uncle.
*saves to files*

Dr. John H. Gerstner
Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth
A Book Review
by
Dr. Stanford E. Murrell, Pastor

A Great Challenge
The challenge to dispensational thinking is to consider that the true Israel of God is not
racial but spiritual. Romans 9:6 “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:” The true
“Israel” consists of those who have the faith of Abraham, whether Jew or Gentile. Galatians 3:7
“ Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.”

http://m.b5z.net/i/u/6125685/i/stanmurrell.com_wrongly_dividing_the_word_of_truth.pdf < click
 
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psychomom

Guest
Light bulb? what light bulb. Zone decieved you by saying the one covenant I spoke of was the law, or mosaic covenant. That law is dead. And not the one I was speaking of..

Although MUCH of dispensational doctrine is based on fairy tales un untruths. it does not mean its main premise (end times) is faulty.

and saying I am wrong because she misunderstands what i said does not help..
First I just have to say I would never, ever argue a point with you, EG. :)
When I think of you, I call you 'Paul' in my mind. You are knowledgeable, like Paul. And you're passionate, like Paul. And you have a great love for God, like Paul. You just remind me of the former Saul of Tarsus. &#9829;
As such, you're waaayyy too good at debating...and I'm kinda lousy at it. :eek:

But right there, I didn't mean end times doctrine...I still have too much to learn (or unlearn? :confused: ) before I'm ready to talk about all that. I just meant that we've always been taught the whole dispensational deal, and till I came here I didn't even know there was another way to think.
(I know, but try to be merciful? Six children, homeschooling each through high school...kept me a little busy. :rolleyes: )

I didn't mean to say you're wrong, not at all...it was just a light bulb for me in terms of some of the stuff we've been taught. More like Zone's right than you're wrong, if that makes sense?
My problem with 'giving up' one disp. viewpoint is that God IS a covenant keeper! No matter how we break our promises, He keeps His. &#9829;
But...I'm just beginning to see that He has kept His promise to Abraham. And that comment about the Law...well, it just lit up a whole bunch of scripture for me. It's hard to explain...it's even halting verbally, and I'm better speaking and poorer typing. (globviously! lol)

As God reveals the Truth to me, I'll try to come back to this at some point. I called Mark at work yesterday to talk about some of this, and I hope this weekend we'll be able to carve out some time for more. Maybe after that I'll be able to be coherent?

We live in hope, right? (hope I'll be coherent, that is) :)

love,
ellie
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds

24He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weedsc among the wheat and went away. 26So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27And the servantsd of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. 41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Matthew 3:12
12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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It's hard to explain...it's even halting verbally, and I'm better speaking and poorer typing. (globviously! lol)
ellie....i think you're getting the right EMFASSIS on the right CILABBLE:D
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest

The phrase coming on clouds does not always mean 2nd advent, it is judgmental language or language that describes the Lord's involvement with mankind. It's used all over the OT and you should know better.


1. As the old saying goes. Just because it CAN mean something, does not mean it does.

2. The only place I see this in the OT is in dan 7. Now take this with Matt 24. Mark 13, Acts 1 and rev 19..Which speak of Jesus literally returning in the clouds. how can we say they should be symbolically interpreted?


and do we not see a common theme? Even though it doesn't seem like Christ is ruling at times, and evil still abounds at times in this world, doesn't denote that Christ isn't in charge or ruling, for He is. It is Christ who allows these evil kingdoms to exist for His good reason, I would guess so that His grace and mercy can abound. Besides these earthly kingdoms don't last. Christ gives them authority, even if they are evil. Romans 13:1.


Yes. But scripture specifically says although he gives them power by allowing them to rule. he will destroy them, and eradicate all evil. This is what we are looking for is it not?

Christ will come back with power and glory, with judgment for the wicked and His reward for the ones in His righteousness; The eternal state.
IMO, you put too much attention on the temporal.
Ok. I can honor this belief. But what I am putting emphasis on is God keeping his word and his prophesies..

This is the final state. Old Israel is only the anti-type to the New Jerusalem, the whole earth restored, not just one little piece of land.
This is not what it says though. He says he will return them, to the land he GAVE their fathers.. God promised ALL his children who have been saved by his son the eternal Jerusalem. He only promised a group of people this specific land.. I think it is dangerous to try to combine them,

Including you?
Thus we see why it is a falacious argument to use this to support ones view.. Agree?? And yet we see both sides using this argument ;)


Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome all have been destroyed. They do not exist today (as the Satanic worldly kingdom they were back then). Also, in order to have a revised Rome, it would have to be made of exactly the same area would it not? If you include Germany, Britain, France etc. that would make a new Roman empire, not a revised one.


Yet we see by the toes, and the iron and clay. it is the same but it is different.. would you not agree??

We are not going to agree, so I'll just let you have the last word and be done. God Bless you EG.


lol, we both love discussing it. I do not think it is bad to have honest open discussion. We do not have to agree do we?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
okay EG.
i'm glad you're not offended, because we're posting at cross purposes is all, from what i can see.
i posted this to show there's no future millennium.
if that's true, then what about the rest of the futurist hermeneutic?:confused::D
well. That passage does not show this, for it can not be said from this passage if there is one or not.

People will be saved from the time Christ arose, until the end (mellinnium or not) So the interpretation would fit both pre, and post or A millinnial beliefs
;)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
First I just have to say I would never, ever argue a point with you, EG. :)
When I think of you, I call you 'Paul' in my mind. You are knowledgeable, like Paul. And you're passionate, like Paul. And you have a great love for God, like Paul. You just remind me of the former Saul of Tarsus. &#9829;
As such, you're waaayyy too good at debating...and I'm kinda lousy at it. :eek:


I am not here to make someone look lousy, or appear lousy.. I pray you do not think this. we are here to learn from each other I hope.. do you not agree??

But right there, I didn't mean end times doctrine...I still have too much to learn (or unlearn? :confused: ) before I'm ready to talk about all that. I just meant that we've always been taught the whole dispensational deal, and till I came here I didn't even know there was another way to think.
Just remember. Like there are many aspects of calvanism.. and even arminianism. There are many aspects of dispensationalsim. We do not all agree.. So if we study just terms. we risk learning a general view of what might be believed. and miss out on what someone really believes.

As I told uncle fess in email a few days ago concerning the article he posted.. I have read many books. but even the ones I really like. i do not agree with everything they say..

(I know, but try to be merciful? Six children, homeschooling each through high school...kept me a little busy. :rolleyes: )

I didn't mean to say you're wrong, not at all...it was just a light bulb for me in terms of some of the stuff we've been taught. More like Zone's right than you're wrong, if that makes sense?
My problem with 'giving up' one disp. viewpoint is that God IS a covenant keeper! No matter how we break our promises, He keeps His. &#9829;
But...I'm just beginning to see that He has kept His promise to Abraham. And that comment about the Law...well, it just lit up a whole bunch of scripture for me. It's hard to explain...it's even halting verbally, and I'm better speaking and poorer typing. (globviously! lol)
well just remember. God covenant with abraham was an eternal covenant. Even if he fulfilled it all in giving what he promised. it would not mean it is fulfilled. Because eternal is forever. which is my contention.

And I think I see what your saying, so forgive me.. I just wanted you to see it was not the law I was talking about when I said two covenants are still in affect. I am speaking of the two eternal covenants. Not the one which was only a conditional and temporaty covenant, which the law was.


As God reveals the Truth to me, I'll try to come back to this at some point. I called Mark at work yesterday to talk about some of this, and I hope this weekend we'll be able to carve out some time for more. Maybe after that I'll be able to be coherent?

We live in hope, right? (hope I'll be coherent, that is) :)

love,
ellie
lol.. I have been studying this for 30 years. and I AM STILL LEARNING.. (like the fact Unclefester is going to get me to relook at the church of Isreal in the passage) We should never think we know it all. And not be frustrated if we do not figure it all out in one weekend. Don;t be discouraged if you don't.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Matthew 3:12
12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Baptism of the HS and fire :)
 
C

Crazy4GODword

Guest
So you don't think you are Israel, huh?

Well, I ask you this; is the Lord Jesus your shepherd? If your answer is yes... then go read
Matthew 2:6
Im pretty sure we aren't Israel. In Matthew 8:11-12 Jesus spoke about the both the believers (Church, gentile converts) and those who will not convert from Judiasm (Israel, Jewish unbelievers). Israel will be saved in the end though because God has not forgotten them (Romans 11:25-27, 2 Corinthians 3:13-16)
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
Im pretty sure we aren't Israel. In Matthew 8:11-12 Jesus spoke about the both the believers (Church, gentile converts) and those who will not convert from Judiasm (Israel, Jewish unbelievers). Israel will be saved in the end though because God has not forgotten them (Romans 11:25-27, 2 Corinthians 3:13-16)
I never said God forgotten them, they are grafted back in the cultivated olive tree the same way we are.