DeMystifying the Trinity

[newbirth]

What could be worst than denying your Creator?






That Yahweh is Triune is taught all the way through the Holy Bible.

Certain people, such as yourself, missed it....but that's OK - you're one of the un-chosen many...







Neither do I...

Father and Son is taught all through scripture and whoso ever denies that is the Antichrist......
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

 

[Bowman]

Father and Son is taught all through scripture and whoso ever denies that is the Antichrist......
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

I wrote these things to you, the ones believing in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have everlasting life, and that you may believe in the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5.13)


The Name of the Son, is the Name of The Father, is the Name of The Holy Spirit.

The Trinity.

 

[newbirth]

I wrote these things to you, the ones believing in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have everlasting life, and that you may believe in the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5.13)


The Name of the Son, is the Name of The Father, is the Name of The Holy Spirit.

The Trinity.

I told you before ....Jesus is set above every name that is named...how can he have the same name as anyone else
Ephesians 1:20-22King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,


Philippians 2:8-10King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;


you keep denying Father and Son....and promoting father, son and spirit..you are antichrist...Father and Son is taught all through scripture and whoso ever denies that is the Antichrist......
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

 

[Bowman]

Keep denying...

I told you before ....Jesus is set above every name that is named...how can he have the same name as anyone else



Ephesians 1:20-22King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,


Philippians 2:8-10King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Jesus has the same one Name, Yahweh.

you keep denying Father and Son....and promoting father, son and spirit..you are antichrist...Father and Son is taught all through scripture and whoso ever denies that is the Antichrist......
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Learn to read and show context....as it shows Father, Son & Spirit.

 

[newbirth]

Re: Keep denying...

Jesus has the same one Name, Yahweh.

Learn to read and show context....as it shows Father, Son & Spirit.

now scripture have exposed you and your error...
you deny Father and Son and preach Father Son and Spirit ...that is doctrine of antichrist....scripture says so...
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

 

[Bowman]

Speaking of antichrist...

now scripture have exposed you and your error...
you deny Father and Son and preach Father Son and Spirit ...that is doctrine of antichrist....scripture says so...
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

If only you understood the simple concept of 'context', you could have saved yourself from looking obtuse..

And you have an anointing from The Holy One, and you know all things. I did not write to you because you do not know The Truth, but because you know Him, and because every lie is not of The Truth. Who is the liar, except the one denying, saying that Jesus is not the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one denying The Father and The Son.(1 John 2.20 -22)



Again, we have...

The Father

The Son

The Holy Spirit


The Trinity....Proclaimed loud and proud.

 

[Elin]

Re: Start thinking before replying...

Assuming this interpretation of prophecy is correct.

Others interpret it differently.

Only you have a private interpretation....which you cannot defend.

Jesus spoke in Greek, and His words were recorded in Greek.....but
you don't know ANY Greek...so how can His words 'settle it' for you...?

Show some respect and forethought...

Gaming. . .irrelevant.

Yes, He does...

Only you deny this....you're all alone....

Gaming. . .

Yes, God the Son has existed for all eternity.

God Incarnate has not.

Scripture...?

Your replies show that you have run out of gas.....

Gaming. . .irrelevant.

Gaming and mockery are the last refuge of a failed argument.

I'm thinkin' you're confused about who has run out of gas.

 

[Elin]

Then he was divine (deity) while on earth.

He was and still is, as the 2nd in command, not as God:

Act 7:56 And he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

I don't think they misunderstood him.

Only God can forgive sin.

Jesus, also, was permitted to do so (and still does it, as Lord).


Mat 9:6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"—he then said to the paralytic—"Rise, pick up your bed and go home."

Mark 2:7 "Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Read there)

Mar 2:10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"—he said to the paralytic—
Mar 2:11 "I say to you, rise, pick up your bed, and go home."
Mar 2:12 And he rose and immediately picked up his bed and went out before them all, so that they were all amazed and glorified God, saying, "We never saw anything like this!"

Luk 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to question, saying, "Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

Luk 5:24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"—he said to the man who was paralyzed—"I say to you, rise, pick up your bed and go home."

"And the Word was God. . .the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us." (Jn 1:1, 14)

Jesus of Nazareth was God the Son, the second person in the Triune Godhead
of three persons in one God, co-equal with God the Father (from whom he proceeds--Jn 8:42, 16:27,
17:8) and co-equal with God the Holy Spirit (who proceeds from both--Jn 15:26).

"Proceeds" (exelthon) in Jn 8:42, 16:28, 17:8 and (ekporeuetai) in Jn 15:26 mean
"to go forth, to go from or out of, to proceed from within".

Only God's own substance, Godhood, proceeds from within himself.

 

[williamjordan]

This is a very sensitive subject matter but I feel needs to be exposed - the Bible lets us know that "Holy men of God" were inspired by the Holy Ghost to write the Books that make up the Bible - I do not pretend to be one of them but ...I was born again (water and Spirit) 30 years ago and live my life in the doctrine of Jesus Christ - and I specify that because there are 2 doctrines - God's and man's interpretation(s) of God's - the latter, subject to the influences in our lives (parents, teachers, friends, environment etc.) - prompts the question: "How can we know what God's doctrine is?" Let me begin......there are also..... 2 "kinds" of Christians ...those that readily believe that God is ONE but....made up of 3 entities (no other way to put it) ....the Trinity....not found in the Bible...and in the time of Christ on earth not even conceived....that's why the disciples had no trouble believing what they'd been taught to believe all their lives, from infancy......told day after day..."Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is ONE Lord".....why do you think Jehovah had them say that to their children from the day they were born? Because He knew that the time would come, when man would believe a "man doctrine" that would teach that He was a triune entity.....and that day didn't come until 300 years after Christ was risen at a council in Nicea by a group of men (no mention that they were holy men of God)

It's been a while since I've used ChristianChat. I'm assuming my account was disabled after a brief period of time of inactivity (I previously went by the alias "GraceBeUntoYou"). I really hate to resurrect an old thread, but it's hard not to point out significant problems throughout this post. I will be the first to say that I have not read through any of the material posted in response to your material, so I apologize if I might object to points already raised by you or any other users.

Though you don't come out and say it here in this post, it does seem that you identify as Oneness (or Modalist) just due to the fact that it does seem that you hold to tenets of the UPCI, and have inherited some of its arguments.

It is painstaking, almost to point of eye-gouging, to read some of this material. You argue that Trinitarianism cannot be inferred from Scripture, and that during Christ’s time on earth that is was not even conceivable. However, you then proceed to counter that very statement by suggesting,

“…why do you think Jehovah had them say (referring to the Shema) that to their children from the day they were born? Because He knew that the time would come, when man would believe a ‘man doctrine’ that would teach that He was a triune entity.”

​

Really? How is it that you come to such conclusions about the Shema, when after all, Trinitarianism (according to you) is a foreign concept? It seems to me that you’re reading ideas into the text that just aren’t there. In light of the Shema, anyone could fabricate an argument in favor of their position.

(Cont'd...)

 

[williamjordan]

To argue that it wasn’t until Nicea that Trinitarianism was first introduced into the Church is being quite dishonest. As I've argued before,

The Council of Nicaea was convened because of an already ongoing dispute between Alexander, the Patriarch of Alexandria, and Arius, who was a presbyter under Alexander, which began approximately six years before the Council of Nicaea. In his letter to Eusebius of Nicodemia (not to be confused with the early church historian, Eusebius of Caesarea), dated around 321AD, just four years before Nicaea, Arius described at length the teaching of Alexander, namely, that the Son had eternally co-existed with the Father prior to the incarnation,

“Ammonius, my father, being about to depart for Nicomedia, I considered myself bound to salute you by him, and withal to inform that natural affection which you bear towards the brethren for the sake of God and His Christ, that the bishop greatly wastes and persecutes us, and leaves no stone unturned against us. He has driven us out of the city as atheists, because we do not concur in what he publicly preaches, namely, ‘God always, the Son always; as the Father so the Son; the Son co-exists unbegotten with God; He is everlasting; neither by thought nor by any interval does God precede the Son; always God, always Son; He is begotten of the unbegotten; the Son is of God Himself.’”
​

In 324AD Constantine began receiving reports that the bishops and churches in Egypt were in disarray. He had been told about the conflict between Alexander, and Arius, and recognized that a schism in the Christian church would be just one more destabilizing factor in his empire, and so he moved to solve the problem, and it is this that provoked the Council of Nicaea.

Many of those who were present at the Council had suffered for their faith under the Diocletianic Persecution (299-313AD). In his Ecclesiastical History, Theodoret of Cyrus describes those present at the Council as those who “bore in their bodies the marks of the Lord Jesus Christ,” some of which “had had the right eye dug out, others had lost the right arm” -- they altogether “looked like an assembled army of martyrs.”

“At this period many individuals were richly endowed with apostolical gifts; and many, like the holy apostle, bore in their bodies the marks of the Lord Jesus Christ. James, bishop of Antioch, a city of Mygdonia, which is called Nisibis by the Syrians and Assyrians, raised the dead and restored them to life, and performed many other wonders which it would be superfluous to mention again in detail in this history, as I have already given an account of them in my work, entitled ‘Philotheus.’ Paul, bishop of Neo-Caesarea, a fortress situated on the banks of the Euphrates, had suffered from the frantic rage of Licinius. He had been deprived of the use of both hands by the application of a red-hot iron, by which the nerves which give motion to the muscles had been contracted and rendered dead. Some had had the right eye dug out, others had lost the right arm. Among these was Paphnutius of Egypt. In short, the Council looked like an assembled army of martyrs.”
​

One cannot even remotely suggest that Constantine somehow “forced” Trinitarianism upon the Church at the Council. How is it that he forced them? With their lives? It is difficult to imagine the men that were willing to suffer for the faith during the Diocletian Persecution would then blatantly turn around and betray it only twelve years later.

 

[williamjordan]

In addition, many of those present at the council were from many different geographic locales. Does it not seem strange to you that if Trinitarianism had first been introduced in 325AD, why is it that we did not see more opposition to it? This shows that Trinitarianism was at the time (prior to 325AD) a catholic (in the global sense) doctrine.

 

[williamjordan]

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]In 1 Corinthians 8-10 Paul has set up monotheism as this relational, loving commitment to the one God of Israel over against idolatry. According to Paul, the person who “loves God” (1 Cor 8.3) knows that “there is no God but one” (1 Cor 8.4). These statements made by Paul clearly encapsulate the monotheistic essence of Judaism, the Shema (“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might,” Deuteronomy 6.4-5). The allusions made to idolatry, to loving God, and believing that God is one disposes of any uncertainty that Paul is drawing here on the Shema.

Paul picks up on this very point in v. 6, “to us there is but one God, the Father from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” But it is here at v. 6 that Unitarians argue for some kind of ontological distinction between the “one God” (v. 6a), and the “one Lord” (v. 6b), but the nature of that distinction is of some debate between sectarian groups.

On one end of the spectrum, the Witnesses argue that though pagans had “many gods and many lords” (v. 5), lords were considered secondary deities in relationship to the gods, and so Paul is borrowing from that idea in his comparison of Christ the “one Lord,” and the Father who is the “one God.” On the other, Socinians argue that v. 5 distinguishes “gods” as heavenly figures from “lords,” who are their earthly representatives, and that v. 6 likewise distinguishes between the Father as God in contrast to Christ, who is His representative Lord.

It seems particularly odd that the Witnesses would even attempt to argue that “lords” are deities second to the “gods,” particularly in light of their position of Christ as “a god.” Likewise, it also seems awkward that the Socinian would argue for a distinction of “gods” as heavenly figures, and “lords” as their earthly representatives in light of the Unitarian proposition that Jesus did not become “Lord” until his exaltation to the right hand of the Father in heaven.

Further, in v. 5 Paul refers to the “gods” as being both in heaven and on earth (“For although there may be so-called *gods in heaven or on earth*”), which ultimately undermines the Socinian interpretation by showing that Paul was not distinguishing between “gods” in heaven, and “lords” on earth.

However, neither of these arguments really seem to consider, and for obvious reasons, that κύριος (“Lord”) is the divine title emphasized in the Shema, “The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” And in light of the overall context, Paul gives us the Christian self-understanding of how the monotheism of the Jewish Scriptures is to be interpreted in light of the incarnation of Jesus the Messiah, the “one Lord.”

In this passage Paul draws upon the monotheistic concept that God alone created the universe. To steal the words of Richard Bauckham (God Crucified: Monotheism & Christology, 38-39), “that God is not only the agent or efficient cause of creation ('from him are all things') and the final cause or goal of all things ('to him are all things'), but also the instrumental cause ('through him are all things') well expresses the typical Jewish monotheistic concern that God used no one else to carry out his work of creation. By Paul's reformulation in 1 Corinthians 8:6, he includes Christ in this exclusively divine work of creation by giving to him the role of instrumental cause.” What Paul seems to be doing here is including Christ in the divine identity by attributing to Christ a role in creation which Jews would commonly attribute to God.

Throughout this argument posed against idolatry in 1 Corinthians 8-10, Paul does not go on to speak about, as one would perhaps expect, the relationship between the Corinthians, and the “one God the Father” over and against idolatry. No, but rather the argument is about the relationship between the Corinthians, and the “one Lord” Jesus over against idolatry (10.19-22),

“You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?” (1 Corinthians 10.21-22 c.f. Deuteronomy 32.21, Malachi 1.7-12)
​

The “Lord” that is spoken of here is most naturally taken to refer to Jesus for various reasons:

(a) Up to this point in Paul’s letter it is only Jesus that is referred to as Lord (i.e., “one Lord,” “the Lord of glory,” et al).

(b) Paul uses this language of “the cup of the Lord” later in his letter to the Corinthians where it is Jesus who is the referent (1 Corinthians 11.27-28 c.f. 1 Corinthians 10.16-17, 2 Corinthians 6.15-16).


​

​

Complimenting this is Paul’s utilization of κύριος (“Lord”) for Jesus repeatedly throughout 1 Corinthians which alludes to Old Testament texts involving the Divine Name (1 Corinthians 1.2 [c.f. Joel 2.32]; 1 Corinthians 2.16 [c.f. Isaiah 40.13]; 1 Corinthians 6.11 [c.f. Isaiah 45.23]). Paul even goes on to affirm in this very letter that,

“We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents” (1 Corinthians 10.9)
​

This is utmost intriguing, because it seems that Paul is alluding to Deuteronomy 6.16 (“You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested Him at Massah”), a text found only twelve verses from the Shema (Deuteronomy 6.4).

In a number of occasions throughout this discourse Paul places God, and "the Lord of glory" (1 Cor 2.8) side-by-side, attributing functions to, and describing Christ in such a way that would identify Him as the Lord of the OT.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[jackmoore]

As one of my good trinitarian friends once said, "In speaking of God as one. There is a being whom the Bible calls the Father, and the Father is designated as God the Father (Galatians 1:1)
The Bible talks about a person named Jesus or the son. Jesus was, ' Calling God his own Father.'
There is a third thing mentioned in the scriptures called the Holy Spirit, this thing is different from the Father and the Son, 'Ananias why has satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?'
The facts of the biblical teaching are these: There is one God. This one God has a singular nature. This one God is called the Father. We are therefore led to the fact that the Father one God, this is the doctrine of God, His son, and His power.

 

[Elin]

As one of my good trinitarian friends once said, "In speaking of God as one. There is a being whom the Bible calls the Father, and the Father is designated as God the Father (Galatians 1:1)
The Bible talks about a person named Jesus or the son. Jesus was, ' Calling God his own Father.'
There is a third thing mentioned in the scriptures called the Holy Spirit, this thing is different from the Father and the Son, 'Ananias why has satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?'
The facts of the biblical teaching are these: There is one God. This one God has a singular nature. This one God is called the Father. We are therefore led to the fact that the Father one God,
this is the doctrine of God, His son, and His power.

"And the Word was God. . .The Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us." (Jn 1:1, 14).

 

[Elected]

Dear Eagleridge,

Are you really interested to learn from the Bible about the Trinity? I am not interested in arguing! Let us start off what historical Christianity has taught.

We believe:

‘Within the nature of the one true God, there are three eternal, distinct Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three persons are the one God ‘

This is statement (above) is accepted by all segments of the historic Church, including Eastern, Roman, Protestant and Orthodox Christianity.

Here are only a few of the earliest references to the creedal doctrine of the Trinity from the early Church:

• The Didache (35-60): “baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

• Irenaeus (115-190): “The Church . . . . [ believes ] in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God . . . and in the Holy Spirit.”

• Tertullian (190-200): “Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are one essence, not one Person.”

The word Trinity is not found in the Bible!

The Bible never uses such words as Trinity, eternal Son, coequal, consubstantial, and three persons. These are theological terms not biblical ones. By ‘theological’ we mean that these are terms which best expresses what we believe the Bible teaches. By ‘not biblical’ we mean that the words itself is never used in Scripture. However, it is of course pure biblical teaching!

Let me make a clear statement early: ‘It is really naïve to object to the word itself is not found in the Scripture if the concept is found in Scripture and is taught in Scripture.’

The Early Church History Creedal Beliefs: Monothestic!

The Trinity is monotheistic! Monotheism conveys the idea that there is only one God. (Again see, Exodus 3:14; Deuteronomy 6:4; John 17:3)

• Exodus 3:14 (ISV) And God said unto Moses, “I Am That I Am.” And He said, “Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, ‘I Am hath sent me unto you.’”

• Deuteronomy 6:4 (NIV) Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

• John 17:3 (ISV) And this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent—Jesus the Messiah.

The Bible teaches that there will never be any other uncreated, eternal, true God or God(s) to come into existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6-8; 1 Kings 8:59-60; Romans 3:29-30; 1 Corinthians 8:4-6; Galatians 4:8).

• Isaiah 43:10 (ISV) “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and trust me and understand that I am the One. Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me.
• Isaiah 44:6-8 (ISV) (6) This is what the Lord says, the King of Israel and its Redeemer—the Lord of the Heavenly Armies is his name—[a] “I am the first and I am the last, and apart from me there is no God. (7) Who is like me? Let him proclaim and declare it, and lay it out for himself— since he made[c] an ancient people. And let him speak[d] future events; let them tell him what[e] will happen. (8) Don’t tremble, and don’t be afraid.[f] Didn’t I tell you and announce it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? There is no other Rock-- don’t know of any.”
  [*]1 Kings 8:59-60 (ISV) And may what I’ve had to say to the Lord remain with the Lord our God both day and night, so that he may defend the cause of his servant and the cause of his people Israel, as the need of the day may require it, 60 so that, in turn,[a] all the people of the earth may know that the Lord is God—there is no one else.
  [*]Romans 3;29-30 (ISV) (29) Is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not the God of the gentiles, too? Yes, of the gentiles, too, (30) since there is only one God who will justify the circumcised on the basis of faith and the uncircumcised by that same faith.
  

• 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 (ISV) (4) Now concerning eating food offered to idols: We know that no idol is real in this world and that there is only one God. (5) For even if there are “gods” in heaven and on earth (as indeed there are many so-called “gods” and “lords”), (6) yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom everything came into being and for whom we live. And there is only one Lord, Jesus the Messiah,[a] through whom everything came into being and through whom we live.

• Galatians 4:8(ISV) However, In the past, when you did not know God, you were slaves to things that are not really gods at all.[a]

After all this reference from the Bible. Why do I believe in the Trinity? Do you want to understand? I don't believe because of the historical creeds. I believe because the Bible spells it out from Scripture. The men who wrote the creeds believed the Bible taught the Trinity. Why? I don't want to waste your time or mine if you are not open to understanding this Bible truth. I have outline that Christians are first Monothestic. Are we in agreement?

Your brother in Christ,

Jerry