DeMystifying the Trinity

[Bowman]

Okay I already gave you the Lords Prayer which is directed to the Father, ...

Let me help you out since you are merely replying from your phone...

So, then, you should pray this way: Our Father who is in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name.(Mat 6.9)

The Father, Son & Spirit all have the same one name.....so the Lord's Prayer is to The Triune God.


Tell Elin that its called the 'Lord's Prayer'.....NOT that the term 'Lord' has exclusivity to Jesus.....

 

[Bowman]

Reference given.

I asked for scripture...NOT numbers...


Let me help you out...


But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that spoken to you by God, saying: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" God is not God of the dead, but of the living. (Mat 22.31 -32)



It says 'God'.....not The Father.

You were already clinic'ed in the fact that 'Theos' refers to Jesus, inherent to Greek grammar.

 

[Bowman]

in one swipe you have made yourself like Jesus and made me an unbeliever

You make yourself an unbeliever by denying scripture.

 

[Bowman]

it is so simple....each is the one God...how many each are there ...three...so there are three one Gods...that is logic...each is not the other,,,,,,,what you are asking is outside logic

3 Persons; 1 God.

Not 'Gods'....


Its amazing that you can bang-put quick replies when you don't have to explain scripture.

 

[Elin]

I asked for scripture...NOT numbers...
Let me help you out...
But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that spoken to you by God, saying: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" God is not God of the dead, but of the living. (Mat 22.31 -32)

It says 'God'.....not The Father.

Thanks. . .now all that remains is Jesus' use of the word "God."

Did he never use the word "God" to refer to himself, or the Holy Spirit?

If not, then his use of the word "God" means the Father,
and his use of it in Mt 22:31-32 means "the Father,"
and he said the Father was speaking in Ex 33-34.

It's not complicated when the Scriptures are used as the basis.

The Greek theos is God, it is not Lord.

And kurios never means God the Father.

 

[Bowman]

Thanks. . .now all that remains is Jesus' use of the word "God."

Did he never use the word "God" to refer to himself, or the Holy Spirit?

Of course.

If not, then his use of the word "God" means the Father,
and his use of it in Mt 22:31-32 means "the Father,"
and he said the Father was speaking in Ex 33-34.

You simply don't know scripture.

Jesus often quotes from the OT, referencing Himself as God.

Come on....

It's not complicated when the Scriptures are used as the basis.

You should try it sometime...

 

[secularhermit]

Thanks. . .now all that remains is Jesus' use of the word "God."

Did he never use the word "God" to refer to himself, or the Holy Spirit?

If not, then his use of the word "God" means the Father,
and his use of it in Mt 22:31-32 means "the Father,"
and he said the Father was speaking in Ex 33-34.

It's not complicated when the Scriptures are used as the basis.


The Greek theos is God, it is not Lord.

And kurios never means God the Father.

HI, Ellin!

Look at Jesus saying these:

Joh 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

Did GOD worshiped Himself? I´m sure Jesus is God´s Son.

Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.

Did Jesus ask that woman something else than water?

Was He seeking that woman to be worshiped?

Wow. Ellin!

The RCC is still ruling those who said are protestants and Christians.

 

[Elin]

The Hebrew word panim used here means both "presence" (Ge 3:8, 25:18, 41:46, Ex 10:11) and "face."

All the translators use "presence" in their translation of Ex 33:14-15,
including in my Bible where the translation was made by over
100 language scholars, including Hebrew and Aramaic.

Semantics.

You already acknowledged that it means the same thing.

Yes and no. . .

You use the word ("faces"), which the Hebrew scholars do not use in the various
translations of the Bible, to mistakenly assert that "faces" in Ex 33:14-15 is a
counterpart to 2Co 3:16-18, and therefore, kurios refers to God the Father.

However, kurios never means God the Father, which is the issue of this discussion.

This sets the stage for the end of Exo 33, where Moses is allowed to see the Glory of Yahweh (i.e., The Son & the Spirit).
The face of Yahweh the Father cannot be seen.

Please give chapter and verses where the meaning of "Yahweh, Yahweh" is stated to be the Son and the Spirit, or
give chapters and verses whose clear meanings connect to show that meaning.

This was already provided in Exo 33...

There is no statement in Ex 33 which states your meaning,
nor any clear connecting meanings which show your meaning.

1) Neither God the Father nor the Lord Jesus Christ are angels (Heb 1:4-14).
(Jesus said the LORD in Ex 3 was the Father, not an angel.)

2) There is no Biblical basis for the Lord Jesus Christ speaking at Sinai
or in the Holy of Holies.
(Your "two faces "of God are not a counterpart to the faces of believers in 2Co 3:16-18.
Nor did Jesus of Nazareth, the Lord Christ, exist before conceived in the womb of Mary.)

3) You have not shown that Ex 34 is a counterpart of 2Co 3:17, 18
and, therefore, that kurios means God the Father in 2Co 3:17, 18.

4) The word kurios never means God the Father in the NT.

 

[Bowman]

HI, Ellin!

Look at Jesus saying these:

Joh 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

Did GOD worshiped Himself? I´m sure Jesus is God´s Son.

Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.

Did Jesus ask that woman something else than water?

Was He seeking that woman to be worshiped?

Wow. Ellin!

The RCC is still ruling those who said are protestants and Christians.

In your Unitarian rush, You forgot to highlight Spirit & Truth.

All NT usages of The Truth have The Son as the subject.

Thus...this passages mandates worship of God as Father, Son, Spirit.

The Trinity.

 

[Elin]

HI, Ellin!

Look at Jesus saying these:
Joh 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Did GOD worshiped Himself? I´m sure Jesus is God´s Son.

Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.
Did Jesus ask that woman something else than water?

Was He seeking that woman to be worshiped?

Wow. Ellin!
The RCC is still ruling those who said are protestants and Christians.

Hi, guy,

Have you considered what else Jesus said, about himself?

• He came from heaven (Jn 3:13, 6:38, 42, 62)
• and was sent by God (Jn 5:36-40, 10:36, 13:3, 16:28)
• to die as a ransom for the sins of many (Mt 20:28, 26:28, Jn 10:11),
• with power to forgive sin (Mt 9:2-6),
• to conquer Satan (Jn 12:31; Lk 10:18; Mk 1:23-26, 5:6-13),
• to speak for God (Jn 7:16, 8:25-28, 12:44-45, 49-50, 14:10, Lk 9:35, 10:16),
• and to judge all mankind (Jn 5:22, 27, 8:26, 12:48, Mt 25:31-33),
• as the exclusive way to God (Jn 14:6; Ac 4:12) - excludes all other ways,
• the source of all truth and life (Jn 1:4, 5:25-26, 6:39-40),
• the decisive factor in the eternal destiny of every man (Jn 3:18-19, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 8:24-25),
• possessing all authority (power) in heaven and earth (Mt 26:64, 28:18; Lk 10:22, Jn 13:3, 13),
• equal with God (Jn 5:18, 8:19, 12:44-45, 14:7-9, 16:15, 17:10); i.e., doing what God does (Jn 5:19)
  • as the Father works, so the Son works (miracles) - (Jn 5:17)
  • as the Father gives life, so the Son gives life (Jn 5:21)
  • as the Father is Judge, so the Son is Judge (Jn 5:22)
  • as the Father is to be honored, so the Son is to be honored (Jn 5:23)
  • as the Father has (eternal) life in himself, so the Son has (eternal) life in himself (Jn 5:26)
  • as the Father sends with authority and power, so the Son sends with authority and power (Jn 20:21)
  • as the Father confers the kingdom, so the Son confers the kingdom (Lk 22:29)
  • as the Father is Lawgiver, so the Son is Lawgiver (Mt 5:23-47, 12:7-8, 19:9, 21:23-27, chp 23)
• empowering the apostles to speak for him, as well as for God (Lk 10:16, Jn 13:20)
• and to recall and understand all things correctly (Jn 14:26, 16:13-15, Lk 24:48-49).

And remember, Jesus said he was speaking exactly what God told him to say
when he made all these claims about himself (Jn 12:49).
And finally, his name is Emmanuel which is "God with us." (Mt 1:23)
Jesus is saying in these staggering claims that he is no less than God.

And that is precisely the way the Jews (who were there) understood him
(Mk 2:3-7; Jn 6:41-42, 10:30-33, 5:18, 8:58-59; 19:7), which is why they had him killed.

Remember, Jesus was also man, as well as God the Son.
In his human nature, he worshipped God the Father.
In his divine nature, he was God the Son.
Jesus was fully both, not part one and part the other.

 

[secularhermit]

Yes, He is and was divine but, as long as He was here, He wasn´t God, but his Son. He also was God´s temple, His messenger... But not God the Father.

http://christianchat.com/blogs/secularhermit/4142-my-faith-unmasked.html

 

[secularhermit]

The thing with oneness is who did Jesus pray to?

He prayed to the Father, the ONE who sent Jesus.

 

[Bowman]

You have issues...

Yes and no. . .

You use the word ("faces"), which the Hebrew scholars do not use in the various
translations of the Bible, to mistakenly assert that "faces" in Ex 33:14-15 is a
counterpart to 2Co 3:16-18, and therefore, kurios refers to God the Father.

Nope.

Only YOU made that assertion.

I have to wonder....do you have a reading disorder...as you keep making assertions that simply never exist in the first place....you do this with not only my replies to you but with things which do not appear in scripture....and then you OCD on them, repetitively.

However, kurios never means God the Father, which is the issue of this discussion.

Scripture shows otherwise.

But...keep denying with only your assertion backing you up...

1) Neither God the Father nor the Lord Jesus Christ are angels (Heb 1:4-14).

Only you have ever made this assertion.

(Jesus said the LORD in Ex 3 was the Father, not an angel.)

God The Father is never directly mentioned....nor can you show that He was...

Simple fact...

2) There is no Biblical basis for the Lord Jesus Christ speaking at Sinai

or in the Holy of Holies.

Stephen stated that the Malek in the burning bush, WHO SPOKE TO MOSES, was both Lord and God (Act 7.30 – 33, 35, 38).

(Your "two faces "of God are not a counterpart to the faces of believers in 2Co 3:16-18.

Only you have ever made this assertion.

Nor did Jesus of Nazareth, the Lord Christ, exist before conceived in the womb of Mary.)

Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.
Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!

(John 8.56 – 58)

3) You have not shown that Ex 34 is a counterpart of 2Co 3:17, 18

and, therefore, that kurios

means God the Father in 2Co 3:17, 18.

Keep clicking those heels together...Dorothy...

4) The word kurios never means God the Father in the NT.

Would dyslexia be what you have working...?

 

[Elin]

Jesus often quotes from the OT, referencing Himself as God.

Jesus does not state that he is God, nor use the word "God" of himself.

Do we have our evidence for an accountable Christian?

 

[Elin]

Yes, He is and was divine but, as long as He was here, He wasn´t God, but his Son. He also was God´s temple, His messenger... But not God the Father.

The NT testifies that the Jews who were there were positive he was claiming to be God,
and had him killed for the blasphemy of it.

I don't think we are in a position to override what they understood him to be saying.

 

[Bowman]

Jesus does not state that he is God, nor use the word "God" of himself.

Wrong.

Again.



ο νικων κληρονομησει ταυτα και εσομαι αυτω θεος και αυτος εσται μοι υιος

o nikōnklēronomēsei tauta kai esomai auto theos kai autos estai moi uios


The one overcoming will inherit all things, and I will be God to him, and he will be the son to Me. (Rev 21.7)




Observe that “Theos” is in the nominative case, indicating that Jesus is the subject of the verb “esomai” establishing Him as God.

Further, observe that Jesus establishes that His deity is directly interchangeable with the Father, making the ones overcoming, the sons to Him.


You have nothing......

 

[secularhermit]

The NT testifies that the Jews who were there were positive he was claiming to be God,
and had him killed for the blasphemy of it.

I don't think we are in a position to override what they understood him to be saying.

OT Jews were obeying the law, in that case (Exo 23:13, Jdg 2:12, 2Ki_17:35) and assumed it properly: If I said I´m a child of God, I should be also divine... Yet He came down from Heaven and was with God, in the beginning.

 

[secularhermit]

Does God change? Is His own personal zeal changing?

Exo 34:14 (for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),


He hasn´t lied when sending Jesus. By the way, Jesus gave that example, when he came:

Luk 20:9 And he began to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard and let it out to tenants and went into another country for a long while.
Luk 20:10 When the time came, he sent a servant to the tenants, so that they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed.
Luk 20:11 And he sent another servant. But they also beat and treated him shamefully, and sent him away empty-handed.
Luk 20:12 And he sent yet a third. This one also they wounded and cast out.
Luk 20:13 Then the owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; perhaps they will respect him.'
Luk 20:14 But when the tenants saw him, they said to themselves, 'This is the heir. Let us kill him, so that the inheritance may be ours.'
Luk 20:15 And they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them?
Luk 20:16 He will come and destroy those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When they heard this, they said, "Surely not!"

 

[Elin]

Yes and no. . .

You use the word ("faces"), which the Hebrew scholars do not use in the various
translations of the Bible, to mistakenly assert that "faces" in Ex 33:14-15 is a
counterpart to 2Co 3:16-18, and therefore, kurios refers to God the Father.

Nope.

Only YOU made that assertion.

Good. . .glad to know I did not understand you.

However,kurios never means God the Father, which is the issue of this discussion.

Scripture shows otherwise.

But...keep denying with only your assertion backing you up...

As is your denial here.

Jesus said the LORD in Ex 3 was the Father, not an angel.

God The Father is never directly mentioned....nor can you show that He was...

Jesus words in Mt 22:31-32 settle it for me.

2) There is n Biblical basis for the Lord Jesus Christ speaking at Sinai or in the Holy of Holies.

Stephen stated that the Malek in the burning bush, WHO SPOKE TO MOSES, was both Lord and God (Act 7.30 – 33, 35, 38).

Read it again. . .Stephen does not state they are the same person.

Nor did Jesus of Nazareth, the Lord Christ, exist before conceived in the womb of Mary.

Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.
Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!

(John 8.56 – 58)

Yes, God the Son has existed for all eternity.

God Incarnate has not.

Our evidence regarding an accountable Christian is now conclusive.

 

[Elin]

Jesus does not state that he is God, nor use the word "God" of himself.

Wrong. Again.
ο νικων κληρονομησει ταυτα και εσομαι αυτω θεος και αυτος εσται μοι υιος

o nikōnklēronomēsei tauta kai esomai auto theos kai autos estai moi uios

The one overcoming will inherit all things, and I will be God to him, and he will be the son to Me. (Rev 21.7)

Observe that “Theos” is in the nominative case, indicating that Jesus is the subject of the verb “esomai” establishing Him as God.

Further, observe that Jesus establishes that His deity is directly interchangeable with the Father, making the ones overcoming, the sons to Him.

Assuming this interpretation of prophecy is correct.

Others interpret it differently.