When does the rapture occur?

[PlainWord]

Sure, but you if are NOT just hunting for something else that you can scoff at; you can either read all of my previous posts, or search for it in the Scriptures yourself. Seek and yee shall find.

The Lamb Standing on Mount Zion is when he first sets foot on Earth at His Second Coming, AFTER the 7 year Covenant the Antichrist makes with Israel is finished. The 144,000 are all Jews with the seal of GOD in their foreheads, while Christians all have the Seal of the Holy Spirit in their hearts. The Antichrist will behead every Christian or Jew who refuses to bow to him as god the latter half of his 7 year Covenant with Israel. The Great Tribulation will be the largest mass murder of Believers (Jews and Christians) the world has ever known, and it will make the 6,000,000 Jews killed in WWII, look small in comparison. I believe the 144,000 Messiah Believing Jews will be the only surviving mortal Believers to enter the Kingdom in their mortal bodies. All other Christians and Messianic Jews will enter His 1000 Year Earthly Kingdom in their immortal Bodies. The rest you can look up.

Scoff? Sounds like a reference to 2 Peter 3 to me.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, [SUP]4 [/SUP]and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming?

Firstly, I am not walking according to my lusts, not for awhile now anyway. Secondly, I do not scoff at the idea that the Lord will return, I believe that He will with all my heart. I scoff at the idea that the Lord returns before the Tribulation and removes the Church alive. I scoff at that idea because it is not taught anywhere, it is instead based 100% on conjecture and no clear teaching.

As for the Lamb on Mount Zion, you have the timing correct, it is His Second Coming. AS for the mass slaughter of Jews and Christians, you have that right as well. For us to be slaughtered, we have to be here. There is no teaching of a post Rapture return followed by a great revival then followed by the appearance of the AntiChrist. In fact, Paul teaches a Falling Away before the Man of Sin is revealed. Paul teaches this in 2 Thes 2 if you want to look it up.

If there is a falling away before the Man of Sin is revealed then where do all the Christians come from?

 

[PlainWord]

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation 3:10 (NKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. {If it is coming upon the WHOLE WORLD, we have be somewhere else, than ON THIS WORLD.}

Revelation 6:15-17 (NIV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

Revelation 16:1 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."
Revelation 16:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

Revelation 15:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.

Revelation 7:13-14 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 6:9-11 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


NOW, tell me again how you come to the conclusion that the events of the Great Tribulation described in the book of Revelation have nothing to do with the Wrath of GOD?

YES, all genuine believers will be Called Out when Christ come for HIS BRIDE. But the Holy Spirit does not stop doing what what HE does best, when HE is taken out of the way. HE continues to convict and convert MANY during the Great Tribulation. He had NO PROBLEM doing that before the Day of Pentecost, and HE will have no problem continuing to do that AFTER He is taken out of the way.

One other point, MANY who call themselves Christians, NEVER KNEW HIM in reality. They settled for something far less that an inner person LOVE relationship with HIM as LORD, meaning submitting to HIM as MASTER.


Matthew 7:20-23 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

NOW, tell me again how you come to the conclusion that the events of the Great Tribulation described in the book of Revelation have nothing to do with the Wrath of GOD?

I can tell you that!! The events of the Great Tribulation have NOTHING to do with the Wrath of God (other than really anger God and cause His retaliatory wrath). The Wrath of God comes after the Great Tribulation. The Wrath of God is compared to Noah's Flood. Most of the "bad stuff" in Revelation where God is punishing is after the Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is the wrath of Satan against the church and Israel.

Try to follow the sequence from Mat 24.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
So, is the Tribulation over before the below events? We are told above that it is.

Sun and Moon darkened
Stars will fall from heaven
Powers of the heavens will be shaken

Now compare to Rev 6:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

Sun and Moon turn dark
Star of heaven fall
Shaken like a fig tree in a mighty wind.

Guess what, the Tribulation is over by this point. Why can't people accept that clear teaching? That means everything after this point is...

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Two events:

Great Tribulation = BAD, CAUSED BY SATAN AGAINST GOD'S PEOPLE
Wrath of God = GOOD, CAUSED BY GOD/CHRIST AGAINST THE WICKED

Is anyone still having problems grasping the above two concepts?

 

[popeye]

Escape Verses? Please enlighten me. What escape verses for the church do you find?

The church in heaven??? Where is the "raptured" church in heaven found? I've got to see this. I see a slaughtered Great Multitude who came out of Great Tribulation, the very one you insist we are to avoid. But, no raptured church is shown in heaven.

This is exactly what I mean .

You do not even know they exist.
What edited copy of the bible is that? Yours?

 

[PlainWord]

This is exactly what I mean .

You do not even know they exist.
What edited copy of the bible is that? Yours?

I use NKJV. What do you use? Give me the passages you use in your version. Show me a "raptured" Church in heaven. I dare you. I double dare you.

 

[PlainWord]

This is the Tribulation:

Fourth Seal:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Fifth Seal:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Where is the Raptured Church found in any of the seals?

 

[popeye]

I use NKJV. What do you use? Give me the passages you use in your version. Show me a "raptured" Church in heaven. I dare you. I double dare you.

1) there is NO BELIEVERS on the planet at the end of the GT.
2) harvest is 4 part
3)The OT patriarchs are already resurrected and in heaven along with Jesus himself.
4)main harvest has not yet happened,but your rev 20 anahilation of the 1st resurrection PROVES you can not reconcile your doctrine.
5) "escape" is a provision for his people. Please try to grasp this NEW concept to postribs.
6) You have no place to go with the bride/groom dimension,or the 'times of the gentiles finished 'concept.
7) 1 thes 4 ONLY FITS pretrib.
Oh,you need to see the church in heaven ? Rev 19 should do,and that scene is DURING THE GT.

 

[popeye]

This is the Tribulation:

Fourth Seal:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Fifth Seal:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Where is the Raptured Church found in any of the seals?

here;
rev 3;10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

 

[VCO]

Escape Verses? Please enlighten me. What escape verses for the church do you find?

The church in heaven??? Where is the "raptured" church in heaven found? I've got to see this. I see a slaughtered Great Multitude who came out of Great Tribulation, the very one you insist we are to avoid. But, no raptured church is shown in heaven.

I you read the Chapter 6 & 7 of Revelation, with the Holy Spirit in you; it as plain as the nose on your face.

The Tribulation Saints are martyred, the 144,000 Jews chosen by GOD are sealed on their foreheads by GOD from harm to their mortal bodies, AND the ENTIRE Assembly that Jesus Christ has been building throughout the OT times and the Church-age is present in heaven:


Revelation 7:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] After this I looked, and there was a vast multitude from every nation, tribe, people, and language, which no one could number, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were robed in white with palm branches in their hands.

 

[SilverFanng]

The stench of sin is great in america,however,the remnant believers are in the way of judgement,(see abraham's dialog concerning the sodomite's city).
This is WHY the church and HS must be removed. It goes to God's testimony/purposes.

If you connect the dots,we have The ac revealed,the church and HS removed,the times of the gentiles completed with the slaughter of the left behind ones,and the time of Jacob's/Israel's /(Jewish) trouble beginning.

Now,,if it starts this year,then THAT is what God means,(by removing his hand this year)not that the sin dimension is the only factor

Congratulations. You just quoted the plot to left behind. I am questioning whether or not you have actually applied critical thinking and questioned what you learned over time before accepting it as gospel. It is sounding like someone told you these things, therefore they must be true. No offense.

 

[SilverFanng]

So the question becomes:

If it doesn't occur by the end of the year,

who do you think "revealed" this to you?

and what are you going to do about it?

That's what I worry about every single day. I've said it here before: my greatest fear is if God shows me I am a false witness.

 

[SilverFanng]

1) there is NO BELIEVERS on the planet at the end of the GT.
2) harvest is 4 part
3)The OT patriarchs are already resurrected and in heaven along with Jesus himself.
4)main harvest has not yet happened,but your rev 20 anahilation of the 1st resurrection PROVES you can not reconcile your doctrine.
5) "escape" is a provision for his people. Please try to grasp this NEW concept to postribs.
6) You have no place to go with the bride/groom dimension,or the 'times of the gentiles finished 'concept.
7) 1 thes 4 ONLY FITS pretrib.
Oh,you need to see the church in heaven ? Rev 19 should do,and that scene is DURING THE GT.

If the two witnesses of the great tribulation are a representation of the church, then that means the reason there aren't any believers on earth at the end of the great tribulation is because we are all dead at that point.

I'm not saying that's what they represent. I've heard several good theories and believe we may never know until it's hindsight what that part represents.

 

[Called4Christ]

Lately I've felt called or spiritually stirred (whichever you prefer to think of it as) regarding the end times. It started when I was sitting in front of my fireplace, shaking and in tears because I was telling God I felt like I had no idea who He was. I wanted to trust what I was being taught, but I didn't know if I could trust man's interpretation of His word, nor could I feel like I could trust myself. I told Him I desperatly wanted Him there so I could know Him. I cried about it really hard....
After about twenty minutes of this, I felt "struck" by this sudden realization.

Jesus couldn't physically come to see me because He couldn't physically return until His second coming. However, He was coming very soon... And not in the "another 100 years or more" or so, kind of soon...

I'm still learning to study the bible. I've read some great studies on the end times so far, but ultimately I know I have to trust God to give me understanding. I'm afraid of trying to form or proclaim solid beliefs about my findings in the event that I'm wrong and I accidentally lead someone in the wrong direction.


Even in making this "proclamation" ( concerning less than 100 years), feels uncomfortable.

 

[VCO]

I can tell you that!! The events of the Great Tribulation have NOTHING to do with the Wrath of God (other than really anger God and cause His retaliatory wrath). The Wrath of God comes after the Great Tribulation. The Wrath of God is compared to Noah's Flood. Most of the "bad stuff" in Revelation where God is punishing is after the Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is the wrath of Satan against the church and Israel.

Try to follow the sequence from Mat 24.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
So, is the Tribulation over before the below events? We are told above that it is.

Sun and Moon darkened
Stars will fall from heaven
Powers of the heavens will be shaken

Now compare to Rev 6:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

Sun and Moon turn dark
Star of heaven fall
Shaken like a fig tree in a mighty wind.

Guess what, the Tribulation is over by this point. Why can't people accept that clear teaching? That means everything after this point is...

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Two events:

Great Tribulation = BAD, CAUSED BY SATAN AGAINST GOD'S PEOPLE
Wrath of God = GOOD, CAUSED BY GOD/CHRIST AGAINST THE WICKED

Is anyone still having problems grasping the above two concepts?

Plainword,

This is getting TOTALLY Ridiculous. You are dragging up old posts just to desperately try to keep the heated debate going. You are PRESENTING YOUR PERSONAL terminology definitions, and pretending they are gospel, and Presenting "NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN." Almost ALL of the mainline Christian Denominations accept the definition of the Great Tribulation as referring Both to the Evil committed by the Antichrist, and the Wrath of GOD and the Lamb being poured out on the whole earth throughout at least the last half of the Antichrist's reign.

Frankly it appears to me that you have some kind of sic desire to keep this particular worn-out, stalemated subject in a heated debate forever. What is it, your only form of entertainment?

We really do not care that you have a strangely different way of looking at nearly every verse. You are welcome to keep your strange beliefs, which are between you and GOD, and have almost nothing to do with what the Holy Spirit has led us to believe. Why does it BOTHER YOU so much that we will always believe differently than you? Keep it up and I will just have to put you back on my IGNORE list where I had you for over a year before.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Let it come for I won't be left behind.

 

[TMS]

It's great that you have been stirred, and that you have gone to God rather than man. There are so many interpretations of prophesy and everyone thinks their right. Revelation isn't easy to understand but don't accept anything that contradicts the rest of the bible and use the rest of the bible as a key to understand it. Can i just say that there are 3 main ways to view prophesy, PRETERISM, FUTURISM and HISTORICISM. Take some time to research each of these systems of interpretation and where they came from.
Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Yes, i believe He is coming very soon and i'm not going to miss it because every eye shall see Him coming in clouds.

 

[TMS]

It's great that you (called4Christ) have been stirred, and that you have gone to God rather than man. There are so many interpretations of prophesy and everyone thinks their right. Revelation isn't easy to understand but don't accept anything that contradicts the rest of the bible and use the rest of the bible as a key to understand it. Can i just say that there are 3 main ways to view prophesy, PRETERISM, FUTURISM and HISTORICISM. Take some time to research each of these systems of interpretation and where they came from.
Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Yes, i believe He is coming very soon and i'm not going to miss it because every eye shall see Him coming in clouds.

 

[popeye]

If the two witnesses of the great tribulation are a representation of the church, then that means the reason there aren't any believers on earth at the end of the great tribulation is because we are all dead at that point.

I'm not saying that's what they represent. I've heard several good theories and believe we may never know until it's hindsight what that part represents.

2 witnesses Interpretation should include fire devouring enemies,dead bodies and resurrection,then ascention.
The reason some say it is the church is they need an "out".

Question; When is the time of the gentiles complete? That is the missing ingredient for the anti-pretrib.

 

[popeye]

Congratulations. You just quoted the plot to left behind. I am questioning whether or not you have actually applied critical thinking and questioned what you learned over time before accepting it as gospel. It is sounding like someone told you these things, therefore they must be true. No offense.

From where i sit,you have zero idea what you are talking about.

Show me where "left behind" connects Abraham with God's testimony????

You should think twice and post once.

I can quite handily defend my position with my bible.

I am questioning whether or not you have actually applied critical thinking and questioned what you learned over time before accepting it as gospel. It is sounding like someone told you these things, therefore they must be true.

Ok,go.
I will wait.

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by SilverFanng

Congratulations. You just quoted the plot to left behind. I am questioning whether or not you have actually applied critical thinking and questioned what you learned over time before accepting it as gospel. It is sounding like someone told you these things, therefore they must be true. No offense.

The quote below would be a good starting place for you.Show me the groom/bride dimension in "left behind"

1) there is NO BELIEVERS on the planet at the end of the GT.

2) harvest is 4 part
3)The OT patriarchs are already resurrected and in heaven along with Jesus himself.
4)main harvest has not yet happened,but your rev 20 anahilation of the 1st resurrection PROVES you can not reconcile your doctrine.
5) "escape" is a provision for his people. Please try to grasp this NEW concept to postribs.
6) You have no place to go with the bride/groom dimension,or the 'times of the gentiles finished 'concept.
7) 1 thes 4 ONLY FITS pretrib.
Oh,you need to see the church in heaven ? Rev 19 should do,and that scene is DURING THE GT.

 

[GaryA]

Almost ALL of the mainline Christian Denominations accept the definition of the Great Tribulation as referring Both to the Evil committed by the Antichrist, and the Wrath of GOD and the Lamb being poured out on the whole earth throughout at least the last half of the Antichrist's reign.

And THAT is the "fatal flaw" which prevents so many people from seeing the truth of the scriptures regarding the End Times Scenario.

For as long as a person refuses to use the biblical event-based definition to shape their understanding, they will "miss the obvious" because they are "blinded" by the [ Satan-inspired ] man-made definition.

The idea illustrated in the quote bubble does NOT correctly define the Great Tribulation according to the scriptures. These verses DO:


Matthew 24:

[SUP]21[/SUP] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Using [ only ] the biblical event-based definition as a foundation for the study of the End Times Scenario will yield a proper result...


The Bible tells us when the Great Tribulation begins and when it ends. Careful study, based on the proper [ biblical ] definition, will show that the 'Wrath of God' occurs AFTER the END of the Great Tribulation ( with 'events' in between, in fact -- namely, the "two witnesses" / "trumpet events" - which are also not part of the Great Tribulation as defined in biblical 'event' terms ).