6 Questions for Jehovah's Witnesses

[Alter2Ego]

What do you make of these verses?

I and the Father are one.

ALTER2EGO -to- GREEN N NICE:
You are cherry picking from John 10:30--which is a favorite verse for Trinitarians. You ignored all of the red flags in verse 29 and instead went straight for verse 30, because it satisfies what you've chosen to believe. I expand on this at Post 174, on Page 9 in my thread entitled: "Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?" To get there quickly, click the weblink below.


http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...le-teachings-traditions-men-9.html#post826453

 

[Alter2Ego]

in the place of honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies beneath your feet.'

English Standard Version (©2001) “‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet’?

New American Standard Bible (©1995) 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET "'?

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

International Standard Version (©2008) 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet."'?

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010) 'THE LORD JEHOVAH said to my Lord, 'sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet'?

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Take the highest position in heaven until I put your enemies under your control."'

King James 2000 Bible (©2003) The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit on my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool?

American King James Version The LORD said to my Lord, Sit you on my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool?

American Standard Version The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I put thine enemies underneath thy feet?

Douay-Rheims Bible The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool?

Darby Bible Translation The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand until I put thine enemies under thy feet?

English Revised Version The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I put thine enemies underneath thy feet?

Webster's Bible Translation The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thy enemies thy footstool?

Weymouth New Testament "'The Lord said to my Lord, sit at My right hand until I have put thy foes beneath thy feet'?

World English Bible 'The Lord said to my Lord, sit on my right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet?'

Young's Literal Translation The Lord said to my lord, Sit at my right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?

Geneva Study Bible

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

ALTER2EGO -to- GREEN N NICE:
I am trying to figure out why you are going to such lengths to debunk your beloved trinity by quoting Psalms 110:1. You quoted it repeatedly in this post from several different Bibles. The evidence is staring you right in the face, and you just can't see it.

According to that scripture, Jehovah is literally talking to himself. During the conversation with himself, Jehovah puts himself on his own right hand and refers to the enemy of the son (Jesus) as "your" enemy (indicating the enemy is Jesus' enemy and not Jehovah's), rather than using the possessive "our enemy" or "my enemy".

If your argument is that "right hand" is figurative, you are still debunked by the verse because it amounts to God promoting himself to a position of honor. And it still does not resolve the problem of Jehovah not only talking to himself but excluding himself when he told Jesus "I will make your enemies your footstool."


QUESTION #2 to GREEN N NICE: Since your position is that Jehovah and Jesus Christ are the same god in the trinity, how is it possible that, according to Psalms 110:1, the enemies are Jesus' enemies and not Jehovah's?

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...le-teachings-traditions-men-9.html#post826453

 

[Alter2Ego]

Jehovah's Witnesses who are they?

The Watchtower society is big money, being one of the top 40 New York City Corporations making nearly one billion dollars a year. That's just from one of their many corporations. Unlike in the case of Christians who are persecuted in other lands for talking about Jesus Christ, Jehovah's Witnesses are largely persecuted for following the teachings begun during the second presidency of the Watchtower, when Joseph Rutherford took over in a corporate flap and began changing doctrines quickly in the Watchtower belief system.

He claimed that angels directly conveyed truth to some of those in leadership. He coined the name Jehovah's Witnesses to make them stand out from being witnesses of Jesus, a typical evangelical expression (and a Biblical one).

Rutherford dumped holidays, birthdays and the 1874 date for the invisible return on Christ, and invented an earthly class of Witnesses, since only 144,000 can go to heaven in their teaching. The rest, meaning all 99.9% of Witnesses still alive, will live forever on a cleansed earth, under the rule of the Watchtower leaders in heaven, who will keep them in line by local elders known as 'Princes'.

If you have been witnessed to by Jehovah's Witnesses and you reject their message, you will likely die shortly at Armageddon with all the other non-Witnesses, since theirs is the only true religion, and (if they can live up to all the rules) they are the only ones to inhabit this new earth. If you believe Witnesses seem rigid now, any non-conformist during the future cleansed earth will be directly destroyed by Jehovah. Even now a Witness will be disfellowshipped for any one of many gaffs, such as smoking, taking a blood transfusion, or even voting.

To even vocally question the teachings of the Watchtower will result in complete cutting off, with family and friends usually being forbidden to talk to them. The Watchtower is a truly Orwellian world, in a time when Orwellian societies are nearly obsolete.

Witnesses are shrinking in number in many Western countries,as the internet facilitates the spread of information (much of it critical of the Witnesses). Witnesses are cautioned against creating JW-related websites, largely to prevent their members from discovering the history and dirty laundry of this organization on other websites. (There are literally hundreds of former members pages in many languages.)

The Watchtower strives hard to control the flow of information to the individual Witness, and prefers that all instruction come through the magazines they carry door-to-door. Without this form of control, even as they themselves admit, they would believe just the same as other Bible believers.

My hope is that there will be a day in each of their lives when the Watchtower magazine is no longer needed, and they can go to college, vote for office, and contribute money and time to other, more vital causes in their community. More than likely they will then cease to be persecuted, except in a few societies more authoritarian than their own.


--- Danny Haszard
Watchtower Jehovah's Witness Whistleblower

ALTER2EGO -to- DANNY HASZARD:

What do you expect any worldwide ministry to run on? Water? As long as the money is acquired by honest means and is used for honorable purposes, why should it concern you? I challenge you to present the name of just one member of the Watchtower Society/Jehovah's Witnesses who is living in luxury off donated funds. Name just one. And be sure and present documentary evidence of this from credible sources.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Jehovah's Witnesses who are they?

The Watchtower society is big money, being one of the top 40 New York City Corporations making nearly one billion dollars a year. That's just from one of their many corporations. Unlike in the case of Christians who are persecuted in other lands for talking about Jesus Christ, Jehovah's Witnesses are largely persecuted for following the teachings begun during the second presidency of the Watchtower, when Joseph Rutherford took over in a corporate flap and began changing doctrines quickly in the Watchtower belief system.

ALTER2EGO -to- DANNY HASZARD:
I am waiting for you to present evidence--from credible sources--that Christians in other lands are persecuted for talking about Jesus Christ, but Jehovah's Witnesses are persecuted "for following the teachings of Joseph Rutherford."

Remember, now, I said credible sources. Downloading stuff from the usual JW bashing blogs that are spattered across the Internet does not resemble anything considered "credible." Especially since those types of blogs come a dime a dozen and are posted by people who have an axe to grind against Jehovah's Witnesses.

People with an axe to grind specialize in slinging mud, and they don't bother to check the accuracy of what they are regurgitating. You obviously have an axe to grind.


I will be watching for your credible sources.

 

[Alter2Ego]

In Jewish custom (and many more around the world) the "first born" was higher in rank, and would be the one to inherit the father's possessions.

The "first born of all creation" means, the highest in rank above all in heaven and in earth. It does not mean that he was made first, and then everyone else.

ALTER2EGO -to- FEED M3:
How do you get around the second part of the word "firstBORN"? I went into this in detail, more than a week ago, at Post 38 on Page 2 of my thread entitled: " Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?" The last two people I raised the issue with regarding the words "born" and "begotten" decided to evade my questions by disappearing from my thread.

I invite you to go take a look at what I said at Post 38 in my thread. Perhaps, by some miracle, you will be able to talk your way around the words "born" and "begotten" that I presented there, along with the two questions that are within the post. Below is the weblink that will get you there quickly.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...le-teachings-traditions-men-2.html#post809517

 

[Alter2Ego]

In Jewish custom (and many more around the world) the "first born" was higher in rank, and would be the one to inherit the father's possessions.

The "first born of all creation" means, the highest in rank above all in heaven and in earth. It does not mean that he was made first, and then everyone else.

It is the same message Paul gives in Philippians:

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

ALTER2EGO -to- FEED M3:
So you're telling this forum that God exalted himself? Because that's what it amounts to, since you are arguing that Jehovah and Jesus Christ are the same god within the fabricated "Godhead."

The term is used to covey preeminence. In the same chapter Col we have the phrase he is the "firstborn of the dead".

ALTER2EGO -to- FEED M3:
Right. And Jehovah made his own self preeminent, being that he and Jesus Christ are supposedly two of the persons within the fabricated "Godhead." Now, please explain what sense that makes.

 

[Alter2Ego]

The term is used to convey preeminence. In the same chapter Col we have the phrase he is the "firstborn of the dead".

ALTER2EGO -to- FEED M3:
A word to the wise. If you are going to argue trinity, do not debunk it by quoting scripture that says Jesus Christ died. In fact, I strongly advise that you dodge every verse of scripture in the Judeo-Christian Bible having to do with Jesus' death.

For my elaboration on this, see Post 175 on Page 9 of my thread entitled: "Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?" After the presentation therein, I posed two questions to you. Below is the weblink that will get you there quickly.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...le-teachings-traditions-men-9.html#post826549

 

[TJ12]

Hello loveme1,

Sorry I missed this earlier.

Do the JW's deny that Yahshua the Messiah is the son of Yahvah God?

Jehovah's Witnesses agree with Paul who wrote: "Faithful is Yahvah, through Whom ye have been called into the fellowship of His Son Yahshua the Messiah our Master." (1 Cor. 1:9; Restoration of the Original Sacred Name Bible)

P.S. It's not often I get to cite that Bible version in these types of discussions.

 

[loveme1]

Luke 23

44And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. 45And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. 46And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. 47Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man. 48And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned. 49And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.

Something to consider.

 

[loveme1]

Hello loveme1,

Sorry I missed this earlier.


Jehovah's Witnesses agree with Paul who wrote: "Faithful is Yahvah, through Whom ye have been called into the fellowship of His Son Yahshua the Messiah our Master." (1 Cor. 1:9; Restoration of the Original Sacred Name Bible)

P.S. It's not often I get to cite that Bible version in these types of discussions.

Thank you for your reply.

Is there a Bible with that variation of spelling of Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah?

 

[TJ12]

Is there a Bible with that variation of spelling of Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah?

Why yes indeed. It's called the Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, based on the Rotherham translation. There's also a New Testament based on the KJV called the Restoration of Original Sacred Name New Testament; King James Version. The ones I have have the following address printed inside, "Bible Ministry; 806 RSCR 3330; Emory, TX 75440 USA".

 

[loveme1]

Why yes indeed. It's called the Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, based on the Rotherham translation. There's also a New Testament based on the KJV called the Restoration of Original Sacred Name New Testament; King James Version. The ones I have have the following address printed inside, "Bible Ministry; 806 RSCR 3330; Emory, TX 75440 USA".

You learn something every day

 

[feedm3]

ALTER2EGO -to- FEED M3:
So you're telling this forum that God exalted himself? Because that's what it amounts to, since you are arguing that Jehovah and Jesus Christ are the same god within the fabricated "Godhead."

I see you feel if one gets tired of going in circles with you, that you must have them where you want them - lol.

This also shows you are assuming what I believe, and must not have paid attention to what I said.

I do not argue that Jesus is the Father. He is the same class as the Father, and because He was willing to come here and die for you and me, God has exalted his name above all.

That's easy enough isnt?

You are arguing that Jesus was a god like Moses (sounds like Islam), and that he came here, allowed himself to be worshiped (I know doesnt mean that in it's normal sense), allowed himself to be called "MY God" (I know Thomas meant My god, if fact he may have said OMG).

Then you believe he was before ALL things,

He was the firstborn of the dead, meaning he was the first to be raised to Eternal life.

He is the everlasting Father, but not eternal God, just created god.

Please dont feel like because you can out talk me that means you have me stumped or something.

IT's gets boring when no matter what passage your shown, they all have different meanings.

Thats what happens when allow a book full of errors to be your authority over the Bible.

I am not saying that in a mocking way either. I can argue for years that Every instance of Jesus healing someone was not really him because their is another named Jesus in scripture, and it does not say it was not him.

I can Isolate passages and ask you to prove to me this Jesus that was healing was called every time the Son of GOd, and if you cant show me then that means you cant believe he was.

See what I am getting at? Just because you have answer for everything, does not mean they are right.

You haven't backed me in a corner, stumped me, nor proved anything on your side, so get over yourself, and when someone says they dont want to continue, just accept it.

You have won in out talking me, I'll give you that.

 

[Alter2Ego]

[FONT=&quot]I see you feel if one gets tired of going in circles [/FONT]with you[FONT=&quot], that you must have them where you want them - lol.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]ALTER2EGO -to- FEED M3:
When you say "going in circles with you," which "you" are you referring to? Until yesterday, I hadn't posted anything to you since joining this forum a couple weeks ago. I believe you are confusing me with someone else.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[Alter2Ego]

This also shows you are assuming what I believe, and must not have paid attention to what I said.

I do not argue that Jesus is the Father. He is the same class as the Father, and because He was willing to come here and die for you and me, God has exalted his name above all.

That's easy enough isnt?"

ALTER2EGO -to- FEED M3:
The reality is that that is exactly what you are arguing. Every single verse of scripture you've posted in this thread is an argument for trinity. According to the trinity dogma which was dreamed up by the Catholic Church and became official church doctrine in the 4th century AD, Jesus the son is also Jehovah the Father.

At another forum where I debate, another Trinitarian came up with a different twist. He insisted he does not believe in the Trinity, mind you. But he kept using the same cherry picked verses that you've posted, during which he informed me that he believes God is presented in three vehicles. Your version has the three "persons" as being in the same class.


QUESTION #3 to FEED M3: Putting people in the same class indicates they are on equal par. Are you telling this forum that Jesus and Jehovah are equal?[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[Alter2Ego]

You are arguing that Jesus was a god like Moses (sounds like Islam), and that he came here, allowed himself to be worshiped (I know doesnt mean that in it's normal sense), allowed himself to be called "MY God" (I know Thomas meant My god, if fact he may have said OMG).

ALTER2EGO -to- FEED M3:
And there you go again arguing that Jesus is also the Father. What happened with your previous retraction above in which you claimed he is not the Father but he is the same "class" as the Father? So why are you cherry picking a verse (John 10:28) where Thomas referred to Jesus as "My lord and my God"?

For my elaboration on this, see Post 176 on Page 9 of my thread entitled: "Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?" Below is the weblink that will get you there quickly.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...le-teachings-traditions-men-9.html#post826807

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is jesus omnipresent? Jesus said he would be with us wherever we go. Did he lie?

Satan, the most powerful of all angels, Can not do this. so How can jesus?

 

[Alter2Ego]

You are arguing that Jesus was a god like Moses (sounds like Islam), and that he came here, allowed himself to be worshiped (I know doesnt mean that in it's normal sense), allowed himself to be called "MY God" (I know Thomas meant My god, if fact he may have said OMG).

ALTER2EGO -to- FEED M3:
Islam has never believed Jesus is any type of god. They claim he's a mere prophet and deny that he came from heaven, much less do they acknowledge him as the Mediator and Messiah. I have debated Muslims at several other websites, so I know what I'm talking about.


Jehovah's Witnesses recognize Jesus as the one and only mediator between Jehovah God and humans, as stated at 1 Timothy 2:5-6. They recognize him as the master worker who assisted Almighty God during the Genesis creation, as stated at Proverbs 8:22-31 and Colossians 1:15-17. They recognize him as the reigning king over Jehovah's heavenly kingdom/government, as stated at Daniel 2:44 and John 18:36. Compare that to Islam which claims Jesus is a second-rate prophet not even on equal par with their false prophet, Muhammad. You need to get your comparisons straight.

He was the firstborn of the dead, meaning he was the first to be raised to Eternal life.

ALTER2EGO -to- FEED M3:
For my response to this, see Post 175 on Page 9 of my thread entitled: "Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?" After the presentation therein, I posed two questions to you. Below is the weblink that will get you there quickly.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...le-teachings-traditions-men-9.html#post826549

 

[Alter2Ego]

I see you feel if one gets tired of going in circles with you, that you must have them where you want them - lol.

This also shows you are assuming what I believe, and must not have paid attention to what I said.

I do not argue that Jesus is the Father. He is the same class as the Father, and because He was willing to come here and die for you and me, God has exalted his name above all.

That's easy enough isnt?

You are arguing that Jesus was a god like Moses (sounds like Islam), and that he came here, allowed himself to be worshiped (I know doesnt mean that in it's normal sense), allowed himself to be called "MY God" (I know Thomas meant My god, if fact he may have said OMG).

Then you believe he was before ALL things,

He was the firstborn of the dead, meaning he was the first to be raised to Eternal life.

He is the everlasting Father, but not eternal God, just created god.

ALTER2EGO -to- FEED M3:
Isaiah 9:6 isn't helping your case. For my detailed response to that portion of your quotation, see Post 177 on Page 9 of my thread entitled: "Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?" After the presentation therein, I posed two questions. Consider them as rhetorical questions, as I don't intend to read anything else you post and I don't intend to communicate with you again after this post. Not after what you said in the portion bolded in red below.


http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...le-teachings-traditions-men-9.html#post826874

Please dont feel like because you can out talk me that means you have me stumped or something.

IT's gets boring when no matter what passage your shown, they all have different meanings.

Thats what happens when allow a book full of errors to be your authority over the Bible.

I am not saying that in a mocking way either. I can argue for years that Every instance of Jesus healing someone was not really him because their is another named Jesus in scripture, and it does not say it was not him.

I can Isolate passages and ask you to prove to me this Jesus that was healing was called every time the Son of GOd, and if you cant show me then that means you cant believe he was.

See what I am getting at? Just because you have answer for everything, does not mean they are right.

You haven't backed me in a corner, stumped me, nor proved anything on your side, so get over yourself, and when someone says they dont want to continue, just accept it.

You have won in out talking me, I'll give you that.

ALTER2EGO -to- FEED M3:
Is that what this is about? A contest in which people out-talk each other, as opposed to a platform for people to see what the Bible really says? Unfortunately, I only just noticed the portion of your post that I bolded in red in which you are now asking me to back off. I say "unfortunately," because it's impossible for me to go back and delete the posts that I presented in this thread, written after you posted the above. The computer here does not permit deletions after several minutes have elapsed.

You started up this bait thread entitled "6 Questions for Jehovah's Witnesses," when clearly you weren't interested in any of their answers from the get-go. When various ones showed up presenting you with answers to questions, you made it clear by your attitude that you're not interested in any answer that doesn't line up with what you've chosen to believe.

Now that your bait thread has backfired, you are now telling me to leave you alone. I will respect that and permanently end all further contact with you on this website as of now. I am also permanently out of your thread.

 

[TJ12]

IT's gets boring when no matter what passage your shown, they all have different meanings.

The thing is, you don't really respond to clear counter-examples to your logic. You just get frustrated and scoff at us like above. The example I've pointed you to a few times already is the account at Judges 13:20-22. If that's Jesus there instead of the angel, this would be, to you, totally obvious proof that he's God and you'd be here scoffing at us for saying it has a "different meaning." We're being consistent because we interpret it the same regardless of whom the account is about; you're only consistent insofar as you consistently interpret the meaning in accordance with the beliefs you bring to the Bible.

I could show many more examples of this, but you've seemed to have had enough.