"Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

[Ariel82]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

every since eve sinned in the beginning women has no authority over a man

Men in general do not have authority over women.

The only men who have authority over Christian women are those who have submitted themselves to God's authority.

If a man is a drunkard who wants to beat and rape women, than he has NOT submitted to God and women are NOT obligated to submit to such treatment.

If the man is a hypocrite who twists the bible to make up rules about what should or should not be done but does not follow them himself, then that man is NOT representing God and should not be followed.

There are other examples.

I've seen arguments for and against having women preachers, and still haven't been convinced of either side.

I want to ask those who are against women preachers, how do they interact with those women who do preach behind the pulpit?

The line is drawn differently for different people.

Some exclude women from any decision making in the church at all.

some exclude women from preaching but not teaching Sunday school classes.

some allow women to preach as long as they are under a head male pastor.

Where is your line?

Are women allowed to be missionaries?

Teach Sunday school as long as the class is only made up of women and small children?

Or can a woman lead a class of mixed gender?

Can a woman preach as long as its under a male head pastor?

Can a woman be a head pastor of a church?

which ministries in the body of Christ do you believe are open or closed to women?

 

[NiceneCreed]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

it took the faith of a woman to give birth to Jesus. would you tell Jesus that his mother isn't allowed to speak in church? would mary have anything to teach us about faith only to be told in church she isn't allowed to speak?

it seems to me that for how people try to interpret those passages say more about them than it does about the passage. they don't accept any context that doesn't agree with what they want it to mean. they will just regurgitate bible versus they feel support their argument. would you learn about Christ as a child from your mother, only to one day tell her she may not speak in the church about what she has taught you? a church she may have even helped build?

many men who claim authority have no understanding of what they are trying to teach. pray for them, for their judgement will be more harsh. the instructions in the letter from paul to timothy are many, and on this topic under discussion, seems clear, during the service the congregation should be silent until prompted to participate.

duewell
mark 4 v 11-13

You know, that is an excellent point that 'Complementarianists' don't want to admit to. Incidentally, it was women who were present not only at the birth, but also at the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Why is it Jesus chose servants who were not credible to testify before men about what they had witnessed? Perhaps Jesus trusted women a little bit more with serious matters than some people would like to think.

 

[NiceneCreed]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Where is the scripture to show that Adam was standing NEXT to Eve? How do you know this? The Garden had many avenues and many trees. They didn't necessarily have to always be together. Anyway, it doesn't matter, because Adam had that choice as well. When Eve offered it to him, Adam said YES... when he could have, or should have said NO. Nobody forced him. Adam was deceived as well, whether by Eve or the serpent.... sin deceived Adam.

Might you reread Genesis 3 if you have any doubts as to whether or not Adam was with Eve at the time she was tempted by the serpent?

The Fall

3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. [SUP]5 [/SUP]“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.


Anyway, the verse I highlighted in Cyan is how I know Adam was with Eve when she was tempted. Furthermore, in an earlier post, you blamed Eve for the entire "Fall," citing that she was deceived, thereby causing Adam to be deceived. Now you are saying something a tad bit different. I just want to make certain I am not confused about where your beliefs lie. Please don't take this as a retort, but sometimes I feel you go back and forth with what it is you say pertaining to this particular topic. And you are correct, nobody forced Adam to eat of the 'Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil;' Adam had a free choice in the matter. However, I don't see what makes Adam so different from Eve that men were supposedly given authority over women. As I stated in at least two previous comments within this post, when looking at Genesis 3:16, it is evident God is not giving a mandate that men are to rule over women; rather, He is merely describing how events will unfold because of "The Fall."

 

[psychomom]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

P.S. put nicely, I just think men need to lovingly lead, both in the home and the church, and women should be happy to have men being the spiritual leaders both in the home and the church, and should appreciate men leading the family and the church, taking on the responsibility to lead those under their care to follow Jesus -- that's a wonderful thing

I can't count the number of tearful ladies I've met with, weeping over the fact their husbands wouldn't take spiritual control of their families.
We talk a lot about what women should be doing on these boards...but I wonder of the opposite topic might also be fruitful?

What you said...it's not just wonderful (and it IS!).
But to women raising a posse of little ones, it's a huge relief!

My friend Claudia's hubby asked her at least once a week how she was doing spiritually whilst she was doing the primary work of raising and home schooling their eight children. He felt a responsibility to her spiritual growth.
That's love. ♥

 

[GreenNnice]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Can there be a distinction between 'a woman' as both 1 Corinthinans 14:34-35 state and 1 Timothy 2:12, AND, what would be where we have to just have faith that God is being God, that His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, that His ways are different than our ways, and, 'a pastor' who is a woman .

There are not many Scriptures that speak of a woman leading a church, and, the word 'servant,' or, 'deacon,' regarding Phoebe in Romans 16:1 is unclear just what Paul meant by her great work she did. Others, too, as, individual-wise, I think, I would have to re-read the chapter, but, there are more women mentioned in servanthood roles of Paul's helpers than men.
Not that this means nothing, just saying....

but, the 'woman' and the 'pastor' could mean something. Call me pentecostal, LOL (I am), or, whatever, but, it seems MORE foolish to me to not believe God can do things through a woman in a CERTAIN church than a man. Remember, we make our own personal choices to choose Christ in our life and follow His 'narrow' way or our own wide way in life. One leads to 'life,' and, one leads to 'death,' pure and simple Scripture there, right?

Therefore, we should have faith in Him for our own individual lives, and, truly, I see the situation where a woman is to pastor over a man few and far between. And, if you look at church pastors today of whole congregations there are probably 19/20 more men than women who pastor a church. So, let's put a rough number up of 20,000 pastors in the USA and 1,0000 of those are women, so ,, 19,000 are men.

I, personally, think a woman can come up beside her man and pastor, but, she can't do it alone, I think this would be a great calling in the world, if both a husband and wife, together could pastor a church, but, the woman, who is a 'pastor,' too, ordained, is under her husband's authority. Of course, the man, who is a pastor, is under God's authority.

Call me different, that's fine, the Lord leads, but, I do not mettle with thinking I can know God's thoughts and ways and those two verses I mentioned at the beginning do speak of 'woman,' but they do not speak of a 'woman' who God has CALLED to be a pastor.

Those who think they know what Scripture says, that a woman is never to have authority over a man and that a woman is supposed to stay silen in a church are correct, the bible does not lie, it is God's Word and it is Truth. But,God is getting things done in His way and through His thoughts, not our thoughts. We do have the 'mind of Christ,' 1 Cor. 2 tells us, but, it also tells us we do not know what God is thinking.


Just my thoughts as I, hope, pray, He leads me. The Lord leads. "...you follow Me." John 21:22

Verses for reference:

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.Cross References
Psalm 16:11
You make known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.

Isaiah 35:8
And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness; it will be for those who walk on that Way. The unclean will not journey on it; wicked fools will not go about on it.

 

[RickShafer]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

The whole point is not as it seems today.
In middle eastern cultures, the men and women sat in segregated places. (Men on one side, women on the other)
- (Call it what you will....that's the way it was)
All that Paul was saying is not for a woman to yell a question across the room to her husband - "What did he mean by that", "What does that mean", and so on.
Plus, there might have been some 'catching up' with the other women.
You know....cackling. - "Oh, how's your young one?" - "Oh, let me tell you...", and so on.
So Paul said........let the women hold their peace and listen......if they have any questions they can ask the speaker afterwards;....also, that is a good time to catch up on the goings on of their prospective households,.....after the service.

That's all he meant.

 

[psychomom]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

The whole point is not as it seems today.
In middle eastern cultures, the men and women sat in segregated places. (Men on one side, women on the other)
- (Call it what you will....that's the way it was)
All that Paul was saying is not for a woman to yell a question across the room to her husband - "What did he mean by that", "What does that mean", and so on.
Plus, there might have been some 'catching up' with the other women.
You know....cackling. - "Oh, how's your young one?" - "Oh, let me tell you...", and so on.
So Paul said........let the women hold their peace and listen......if they have any questions they can ask the speaker afterwards;....also, that is a good time to catch up on the goings on of their prospective households,.....after the service.

That's all he meant.

Respectfully, doesn't that imply God didn't know cultures would change, and thus wasn't more specific?
Mightn't He instead have said something like, "As long as families don't sit together..."?

 

[1still_waters]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

If this were just about women not shouting across the room to ask questions, it would have simply said women shouldn't ask questions. It goes further and says it's even a shame for women to speak in church. This is about preaching from the pulpit.

 

[NiceneCreed]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Respectfully, doesn't that imply God didn't know cultures would change, and thus wasn't more specific?
Mightn't He instead have said something like, "As long as families don't sit together..."?

You know, there are many cultural differences contained within the Bible. The point of having an understanding of historical-cultural context is to exegetically interpret God's Word. So, yes. Our understanding the Bible, at least some passages more than others, highly depends on our understanding of historical-cultural context. That said, I would have to agree with Rick Schafer on this one.

 

[NiceneCreed]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

If this were just about women not shouting across the room to ask questions, it would have simply said women shouldn't ask questions. It goes further and says it's even a shame for women to speak in church. This is about preaching from the pulpit.

It would be a shame for anyone to not be respectful of church services, by being disruptive as the sermon is being preached.

 

[1still_waters]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

It would be a shame for anyone to not be respectful of church services, by being disruptive as the sermon is being preached.

If that was the point he was trying to make he wouldn't have distinguished between men and women.

 

[GreenNnice]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

We are to be where Jesus is, and Scripture says we will be where He wants us to be. Maybe, He wants a woman to pastor a church. Again, I don't think that this is very often happening, I put a rough number of a 1,000 women pastors currently in the USA leading congregations, but, I think, that number is lower than that, probably take off a '0' even, more like, a 100 woman pastors. But, God wants us to follow Him and the word 'called' is quite a word, for it means God has called someone--'anyone'-- to serve Him, to 'follow Me.' Can a woman be called to pastor a church? She can, but it's not likely and it will be from the Lord's leading that 'servant' to do so.

Anyone who wants to be my disciple must follow me, because my servants must be where I am. And the Father will honor anyone who serves me. John 12:26

This verse, to me, speaks of a faith in Him, to follow Him, to go where He calls us to go into all the world, and, women, as well as men, can be called by God to pastor a church. But, I agree 100% with the fact that women are to be in submission to their husbands and church is no exception, however, legalism is not something that I am into, at all, and, if a woman asks her husband a question in church that's OK. But, why does she need to? Just write down the thought perplexing and ask your husband at home, and, 'course, this goes both ways, as, some wives are more schooled than their husbands and understand sermon messages better than their husbands, so, the husband, therefore, should write down a question of a sermon part he does not understand by the pastor.

I think , the biggest reason that a woman would become pastor of a church is that no man steps up and does the job, by faith, just like Abraham was to lead the Israelites in voice, too, but, got cold feet, didn't have faith, and, so, God, quickly, brought Aaron into the picture, to be Moses' spokesperson to the people. Now, this is man substituted for man, but, it could also be woman substituted for man, regarding church pastoring.

Most often an equally qualified man to a woman will be available to pastor a church, but, I'm guessing, not always, by the fact that there are women pastors out there, in the USA, anyway, that pastor entire congregations, I know, a Lutheran pastor friend (ordained) who goes from church to church in that denomination, stays at one church around 6 months before going to another church.

Can God call women to seminary to be pastors? Yes. Anyone But, I think too, best case scenario is she pastoring with her husband in authority over her, as they co-pastor a church. This seems like a beautiful arrangement to me, too.

Again, Scripture is clear, no confusion:, a woman of a man is to be under his authority in a church setting and in a life setting. What is not clear is if a 'woman' of 1 Cor. 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:12 is including a woman who is become a 'pastor' of her church; can this 'woman' be different from the woman who is to 'learn in submission' and to ask her husband at home about the morning's message of the church service?
​

 

[1still_waters]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Another thing, some keep saying women back then were uneducated, but then they turn right around and point to scriptures of educated women whom they claim were in leadership over men positions. If women back then were uneducated, how in the world could they be in these supposed leadership over men positions?

 

[psychomom]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

For a '50s guy, my dad was pretty forward thinking.
He raised his four daughters to have a great amount of self respect and confidence.
We never felt "less than" because we were not male.

Yet I believe I should read the clear words of the Lord, and simply believe them.
It's not about being sexist, or a cultural thing.
It's the Word of God, plainly stated, and it's my job to believe and obey Him.

 

[NiceneCreed]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

If that was the point he was trying to make he wouldn't have distinguished between men and women.

If he was addressing a specific problem that pertained to the audience receiving his letter, he absolutely would have and did make the distinction. This isn't just something we see in a few books, there are distinctions made in much of the Canon.

 

[NiceneCreed]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Another thing, some keep saying women back then were uneducated, but then they turn right around and point to scriptures of educated women whom they claim were in leadership over men positions. If women back then were uneducated, how in the world could they be in these supposed leadership over men positions?

The difference is that while men were trained to learn the Canon overall, women generally were educated only in the Psalms . . . That isn't to say there were not exceptions to the rule, but it was very uncommon for a woman to have the same degree of education as a man.

A Jewish Rabbi once said (And this is still a commonly held belief to this day), "It is better to burn the law than to give it to a woman." Sort of puts a fresh perspective on Jewish culture, doesn't it? Better to destroy God's law than to teach it to a woman, wow! Unbelievable!

 

[RickShafer]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

If this were just about women not shouting across the room to ask questions, it would have simply said women shouldn't ask questions. It goes further and says it's even a shame for women to speak in church. This is about preaching from the pulpit.

Did Deborah judge Israel?
- Didn't God know what He was doing?
- - But He changes daily, so that's O.K.

See Esther. (See what she did) - Total type of Christ.; (Please read)

 

[1still_waters]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Did Deborah judge Israel?
- Didn't God know what He was doing?
- - But He changes daily, so that's O.K.

See Esther. (See what she did) - Total type of Christ.; (Please read)

Look at the pattern...

Judges 3
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But when the people of Israelcried out to the Lord, the Lord raised up a deliverer for the people of Israel, who saved them,Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he judged Israel. He went out to war, and the Lord gave Cushan-rishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand. And his hand prevailed over Cushan-rishathaim. [SUP]11 [/SUP]So the land had rest forty years. Then Othniel the son of Kenaz died.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then the people of Israel cried out to the Lord, and the Lord raised up for them a deliverer, Ehud, the son of Gera, the Benjaminite, a left-handed man. The people of Israel sent tribute by him to Eglon the king of Moab.

Now look for what is missing...

Judges 4
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time. [SUP]5 [/SUP]She used to sit under the palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the people of Israel came up to her for judgment.

Also in Isaiah 3, it's actually a disgrace for women to rule over men.
It's a sign of curse.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Tell the righteous that it shall be well with them,
for they shall eat the fruit of their deeds.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Woe to the wicked! It shall be ill with him,
for what his hands have dealt out shall be done to him.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]My people—infants are their oppressors,
and women rule over them.
O my people, your guides mislead you
and they have swallowed up[SUP][e][/SUP] the course of your paths.

 

[RickShafer]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

[SUP]StillWaters posted in defense of his argument: ([/SUP]My people—infants are their oppressors,
and women rule over them.}

You can't mix scripture.
Where does it say Deborah was any less called than the other Judges?
As for the child, (out of the same book you referenced) -
"And a child shall lead them" - Isaiah 11:6

You are pasting scripture to your preconceived notions to horrific proportions.

 

[1still_waters]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

[SUP]StillWaters posted in defense of his argument: ([/SUP]My people—infants are their oppressors,
and women rule over them.}

You can't mix scripture.
Where does it say Deborah was any less called than the other Judges?
As for the child, (out of the same book you referenced) -
"And a child shall lead them" - Isaiah 11:6

You are pasting scripture to your preconceived notions to horrific proportions.

Lol and of course, and you're not.

"And a child shall lead them" - Isaiah 11:6

Your verse is a symbolic description of the restoration of creation, or a possible. 1000 millennial reign. I'll include that just to keep this on track. The point of Isaiah 11:6 is to show the peace on Earth, not to show that children will be leading people. Actually Jesus will be the king leader, so it's pretty clear that's symbolism to show it as a time of peace. That's the main thrust of that text. Peace.

The Righteous Reign of the Branch

11 There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse,
and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him,
the Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and might,
the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And his delight shall be in the fear of the Lord.
He shall not judge by what his eyes see,
or decide disputes by what his ears hear,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]but with righteousness he shall judge the poor,
and decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth,
and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist,
and faithfulness the belt of his loins.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together;
and a little child shall lead them.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The cow and the bear shall graze;
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra,
and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]They shall not hurt or destroy
in all my holy mountain;
for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord

Now you accused me of interpreting based on preconceived ideas.
I was reading a thread earlier someone posted about folks who accuse...

It said something like this...

Concerning the content of debate on these Bible forums;
when in doubt, always look to the accusers.
They are always wrong.
- (See Solomon judging between two mothers: the one who would kill the child and the other who would give it away to save it's life.)
- - Enough said.

Link---> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/71942-bible-forum-tell.html#post1159569

Please don't accuse me of interpreting based on preconceived ideas.

As far as Is 3:11 in concerned.
That's a descriptive passage clearly showing that it's a shame for women to lead over men.