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N
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
That's cool. I have to say that your knowledge surpasses that of many of my fellow students -- and while they have a deep understanding of Scripture -- it just goes to show the knowledge one can attain (without formal schooling) when they have a zeal for God's Word! Thank you, Rachel.
That's cool. I have to say that your knowledge surpasses that of many of my fellow students -- and while they have a deep understanding of Scripture -- it just goes to show the knowledge one can attain (without formal schooling) when they have a zeal for God's Word! Thank you, Rachel.
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N
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
Please don't start with the insults. Please. I thought we were having a polite discussion. If you would like to answer any of my questions or address any of my remarks in a courteous fashion, I have no objections. However, there is no need to be indecorous.
Please don't start with the insults. Please. I thought we were having a polite discussion. If you would like to answer any of my questions or address any of my remarks in a courteous fashion, I have no objections. However, there is no need to be indecorous.
N
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
Jonathan, that wasn't a rebuke; that was an insult. Point blank. As I requested, please refrain from insults or making accusations that I and others who share similar beliefs are somehow sacrilegious or heretical, because that is what you suggested with your remark. Please, I am kindly asking you to refrain from making such statements.
Jonathan, that wasn't a rebuke; that was an insult. Point blank. As I requested, please refrain from insults or making accusations that I and others who share similar beliefs are somehow sacrilegious or heretical, because that is what you suggested with your remark. Please, I am kindly asking you to refrain from making such statements.
M
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
good point but the fact remains that the deception was firstly on Eves part.i dont think adam sinned in his heart.quite frankly i think what adam did was a foreshadow of what Jesus did for sinful man.He became sin for us and took our punishment when he didnt have to.This also brings up the fact that in order for God to play the role of savior he needed someone to save,in order for God to be a redeeme he needed someone to redeem.you bring up some good points
good point but the fact remains that the deception was firstly on Eves part.i dont think adam sinned in his heart.quite frankly i think what adam did was a foreshadow of what Jesus did for sinful man.He became sin for us and took our punishment when he didnt have to.This also brings up the fact that in order for God to play the role of savior he needed someone to save,in order for God to be a redeeme he needed someone to redeem.you bring up some good points
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
I have experienced first-hand that sexism is alive and well in church. I also know that the church shouldn't be grouped as a whole and know that there are very arrogant individuals that are extremists to the core. Men who can't wrap their minds around the fact that I am not a male and I have strong opinions and insights don't deserve my time or my co-operation.
Your intelligence and your wit have nothing to do with what parts you are born with--plain and simple.
I have experienced first-hand that sexism is alive and well in church. I also know that the church shouldn't be grouped as a whole and know that there are very arrogant individuals that are extremists to the core. Men who can't wrap their minds around the fact that I am not a male and I have strong opinions and insights don't deserve my time or my co-operation.
Your intelligence and your wit have nothing to do with what parts you are born with--plain and simple.
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (NASB) [SUP]34 [/SUP]The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. [SUP]35 [/SUP]If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
Speak - Greek Strong's Number: 2980Greek Word: λαλέω
Transliteration: laleō
Phonetic Pronunciation:
lal-eh'-o
Root: a prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb
Cross Reference: TDNT - 4:69,505
Part of Speech: v
Vine's Words: Say, Speak, Talk, Tell, Utter
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
speak 244
say 15
tell 12
talk 11
preach 6
utter 4
miscellaneous translations 3
vr speak 1
[Total Count: 296]
a prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk, i.e. utter words :- preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter. Compare <G3004> (lego).
When we look at context of these two verses, we get the distinct impression that the women's talking was about asking questions during the service.
When we look at the context of the entire book of first Corinthians, we see that this church in particular had problems with abusing the gifts of the Spirit, and abusing their Christian liberty. As we look at the entirety of chapter 14, it is speaking about how prophecy should be properly used, decently and in order
Consider this: if a Jewish woman who under the old covenant couldn't say a word in the synagogue receives salvation where she is told she is free in Christ Jesus from the Law, and goes to a church where there are abuses in Christian liberty, what do you think will be the result? A committed Christian who is aware of their ignorance will desire to do all they can to learn. Since most of them couldn't read, the majority of their learning was during the service. Since the majority is new converts, we may be able to assume that the majority was also ignorant about the teachings of the new covenant. This could explain the abuses of the gifts as well as their Christian liberty.
If this speaking is about prophecy, which chapter 14 completely covers, it still has nothing to do with preaching and teaching, or using authority as a leader. None of the context of the chapter talks about preaching at all.
IMHO, this scripture is either speaking about asking questions during service, whether agitating the leader by constant interuption, or asking questions to those around them, stirring confusion.
Even today, you can walk into a church and within a few minutes into its service determine the general maturity level of the church due to its abuses and lack of order.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (NASB) [SUP]34 [/SUP]The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. [SUP]35 [/SUP]If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
Speak - Greek Strong's Number: 2980Greek Word: λαλέω
Transliteration: laleō
Phonetic Pronunciation:
Root: a prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb
Cross Reference: TDNT - 4:69,505
Part of Speech: v
Vine's Words: Say, Speak, Talk, Tell, Utter
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
speak 244
say 15
tell 12
talk 11
preach 6
utter 4
miscellaneous translations 3
vr speak 1
[Total Count: 296]
a prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk, i.e. utter words :- preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter. Compare <G3004> (lego).
When we look at context of these two verses, we get the distinct impression that the women's talking was about asking questions during the service.
When we look at the context of the entire book of first Corinthians, we see that this church in particular had problems with abusing the gifts of the Spirit, and abusing their Christian liberty. As we look at the entirety of chapter 14, it is speaking about how prophecy should be properly used, decently and in order
Consider this: if a Jewish woman who under the old covenant couldn't say a word in the synagogue receives salvation where she is told she is free in Christ Jesus from the Law, and goes to a church where there are abuses in Christian liberty, what do you think will be the result? A committed Christian who is aware of their ignorance will desire to do all they can to learn. Since most of them couldn't read, the majority of their learning was during the service. Since the majority is new converts, we may be able to assume that the majority was also ignorant about the teachings of the new covenant. This could explain the abuses of the gifts as well as their Christian liberty.
If this speaking is about prophecy, which chapter 14 completely covers, it still has nothing to do with preaching and teaching, or using authority as a leader. None of the context of the chapter talks about preaching at all.
IMHO, this scripture is either speaking about asking questions during service, whether agitating the leader by constant interuption, or asking questions to those around them, stirring confusion.
Even today, you can walk into a church and within a few minutes into its service determine the general maturity level of the church due to its abuses and lack of order.
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Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
it took the faith of a woman to give birth to Jesus. would you tell Jesus that his mother isn't allowed to speak in church? would mary have anything to teach us about faith only to be told in church she isn't allowed to speak?
it seems to me that for how people try to interpret those passages say more about them than it does about the passage. they don't accept any context that doesn't agree with what they want it to mean. they will just regurgitate bible versus they feel support their argument. would you learn about Christ as a child from your mother, only to one day tell her she may not speak in the church about what she has taught you? a church she may have even helped build?
many men who claim authority have no understanding of what they are trying to teach. pray for them, for their judgement will be more harsh. the instructions in the letter from paul to timothy are many, and on this topic under discussion, seems clear, during the service the congregation should be silent until prompted to participate.
duewell
mark 4 v 11-13
it took the faith of a woman to give birth to Jesus. would you tell Jesus that his mother isn't allowed to speak in church? would mary have anything to teach us about faith only to be told in church she isn't allowed to speak?
it seems to me that for how people try to interpret those passages say more about them than it does about the passage. they don't accept any context that doesn't agree with what they want it to mean. they will just regurgitate bible versus they feel support their argument. would you learn about Christ as a child from your mother, only to one day tell her she may not speak in the church about what she has taught you? a church she may have even helped build?
many men who claim authority have no understanding of what they are trying to teach. pray for them, for their judgement will be more harsh. the instructions in the letter from paul to timothy are many, and on this topic under discussion, seems clear, during the service the congregation should be silent until prompted to participate.
duewell
mark 4 v 11-13
A
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
Women are allowed to teach children.
Therefore all who are children of God should be able to be taught by a woman or a man.
If a man is mature and full grown, then he wouldn't need to have a woman teach or have authority over him. He would have God and His Holy Spirit to teach and guide him.
unfortunately, we often lack mature men in modern-day churches to step up and fulfill those leadership roles.
Leadership does more than just lead the flock. they keep the wolves out of the pasture as well.
Women are allowed to teach children.
Therefore all who are children of God should be able to be taught by a woman or a man.
If a man is mature and full grown, then he wouldn't need to have a woman teach or have authority over him. He would have God and His Holy Spirit to teach and guide him.
unfortunately, we often lack mature men in modern-day churches to step up and fulfill those leadership roles.
Leadership does more than just lead the flock. they keep the wolves out of the pasture as well.
J
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
This should end the thread... The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. [h=3]1 Corinthians 14:34-35[/h]
This should end the thread... The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. [h=3]1 Corinthians 14:34-35[/h]
C
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
You may try to interpret I Corinthians Ch 14:34 as women should not "chatter in the church", but it is really talking about preaching/teaching. Women should not preach or teach in the church. Read I Timothy 1:12....it reads "But I do not allow a woman to TEACH or exercise authority over a man but to remain quiet." This is not only talking about a woman in connection to her husband, but also a woman in the church. This has nothing to do with chatter in the church. How could you think that?
You may try to interpret I Corinthians Ch 14:34 as women should not "chatter in the church", but it is really talking about preaching/teaching. Women should not preach or teach in the church. Read I Timothy 1:12....it reads "But I do not allow a woman to TEACH or exercise authority over a man but to remain quiet." This is not only talking about a woman in connection to her husband, but also a woman in the church. This has nothing to do with chatter in the church. How could you think that?
C
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
Yes, I agree, and remember, there were NO MEN AROUND. So does that mean that if I am together with a few women we cannot discuss the Bible together or pray? No, of course we can. In these cities in the Bible, studies have shown that these women were where no men were nor could preach or pray. They "ministered" to other about the Lord. To "minister" does not mean talk in the church. It can mean given to hospitality, helping the needy, talking about the Lord to others. Talking to the Lord to others does not mean I am preaching in the church. It means I am witnessing to others. I do not believe, based on the scriptures in Corinthians and Timothy that a woman should be allowed to speak in the church. With women's lib these days and equal rights for women, the world is over looking this in the Bible. People are so inclined now to let women do anything and everything, even if it is against the word of God. There are many faithful and educated women who know the Bible and can be a witness, but they still must be in authority that God has given them, both to their husbands and the church. Let's not be fooled or confused, and think just because society and the government allow women to their rights to preach, and even some churches, that it is okay with God. It is not.
The way I see 1 Corinthians 14:34,35 in the context of "Let things been done decently and in order", a woman should not question a man/husband that is in the process of teaching/preaching with endless questions therefore disputing his word, and usurping his authority. If she has a question she should ask her husband at home therefore not disrupting the congregation and not usurping his authority. Now, what if the woman is a widow. . .then she cannot ask her "husband" at home? Has wearing our heads covered when we prophesy or pray in public . . . has that ceased? We also shouldn't have elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls, or costly array. We can't cut our hair but must wear it long. Were these instructions concerning women based more on the culture and customs in Corinth? In the first century, in Roman and Judean cultures, women were generally uneducated and thus were not prepared to always understand the theological issues.
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. . . .Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus . . also the church that meets at their house. . .Greet Mary, who worked very hard with you. Greet Andronicus and Junia. . . . . .Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord. Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord.
No, it doesn't say that any of these women taught. . . but neither does it say they didn't. We also need to remember that most "churches" were met in homes during this time. The thing is in Romans Paul took the time to mention these women.
But hey, what do I know. . . .I am a woman
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. . . .Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus . . also the church that meets at their house. . .Greet Mary, who worked very hard with you. Greet Andronicus and Junia. . . . . .Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord. Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord.
No, it doesn't say that any of these women taught. . . but neither does it say they didn't. We also need to remember that most "churches" were met in homes during this time. The thing is in Romans Paul took the time to mention these women.
But hey, what do I know. . . .I am a woman
Yes, I agree, and remember, there were NO MEN AROUND. So does that mean that if I am together with a few women we cannot discuss the Bible together or pray? No, of course we can. In these cities in the Bible, studies have shown that these women were where no men were nor could preach or pray. They "ministered" to other about the Lord. To "minister" does not mean talk in the church. It can mean given to hospitality, helping the needy, talking about the Lord to others. Talking to the Lord to others does not mean I am preaching in the church. It means I am witnessing to others. I do not believe, based on the scriptures in Corinthians and Timothy that a woman should be allowed to speak in the church. With women's lib these days and equal rights for women, the world is over looking this in the Bible. People are so inclined now to let women do anything and everything, even if it is against the word of God. There are many faithful and educated women who know the Bible and can be a witness, but they still must be in authority that God has given them, both to their husbands and the church. Let's not be fooled or confused, and think just because society and the government allow women to their rights to preach, and even some churches, that it is okay with God. It is not.
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
Romans 16:7 (NASB) [SUP]7 [/SUP]Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Romans 16:7 (NLT) [SUP]7 [/SUP]Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews, who were in prison with me. They are highly respected among the apostles and became followers of Christ before I did.
Outstanding - Greek Word: ἐπίσημοςTransliteration: episēmos
Phonetic Pronunciation:
ep-is'-ay-mos
Root: from <G1909> and some form of the base of <G4591>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 7:267,1015
Part of Speech: adj
Vine's Words: Notable, Of Note
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
notable 1
of note 1
[Total Count: 2]
from <G1909> (epi) and some form of the base of <G4591> (semaino); remarkable, i.e. (figurative) eminent :- notable, of note.
remarkable -worthy of being or likely to be noticed especially as being uncommon or extraordinary (speaks of excellence)
notable -
1. worthy of note or notice; noteworthy: a notable success; a notable theory.
2. prominent, important, or distinguished: many notable artists.
3. Archaic. capable, thrifty, and industrious.
noun
4. a prominent, distinguished, or important person.
The Apostle Paul has wonderful things to say about those who work with him. When he does, he usually talks about them being good servants, relating to their duties as they travel back and forth from him to the churches.
Here, Paul speaks of these two as being held in high regard among the apostles. This leaves us with two possible interpretations:
1. They were held in high regard as respected by the apostles.
2. They were held in high regard among the apostles, as holding the office.
We should ask this question: did Paul know all the other apostles? He would have had to to make the statement ''respected by the apostles''
But if Paul knew these two as of high regard as apostles, he wouldn't need to know all the other apostles. When Paul speaks about anybody, it's because he personally knows them.
Whether Junia was an apostle or not, she certainly wasn't just a helper in ministry or a deaconess. The statement of prominence and excellence speaks to her ministry. So as a Christian leader, one would have to believe she was up in the rankings somewhere in ministry.
Romans 16:7 (NASB) [SUP]7 [/SUP]Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Romans 16:7 (NLT) [SUP]7 [/SUP]Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews, who were in prison with me. They are highly respected among the apostles and became followers of Christ before I did.
Outstanding - Greek Word: ἐπίσημοςTransliteration: episēmos
Phonetic Pronunciation:
Root: from <G1909> and some form of the base of <G4591>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 7:267,1015
Part of Speech: adj
Vine's Words: Notable, Of Note
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
notable 1
of note 1
[Total Count: 2]
from <G1909> (epi) and some form of the base of <G4591> (semaino); remarkable, i.e. (figurative) eminent :- notable, of note.
remarkable -worthy of being or likely to be noticed especially as being uncommon or extraordinary (speaks of excellence)
notable -
1. worthy of note or notice; noteworthy: a notable success; a notable theory.
2. prominent, important, or distinguished: many notable artists.
3. Archaic. capable, thrifty, and industrious.
noun
4. a prominent, distinguished, or important person.
The Apostle Paul has wonderful things to say about those who work with him. When he does, he usually talks about them being good servants, relating to their duties as they travel back and forth from him to the churches.
Here, Paul speaks of these two as being held in high regard among the apostles. This leaves us with two possible interpretations:
1. They were held in high regard as respected by the apostles.
2. They were held in high regard among the apostles, as holding the office.
We should ask this question: did Paul know all the other apostles? He would have had to to make the statement ''respected by the apostles''
But if Paul knew these two as of high regard as apostles, he wouldn't need to know all the other apostles. When Paul speaks about anybody, it's because he personally knows them.
Whether Junia was an apostle or not, she certainly wasn't just a helper in ministry or a deaconess. The statement of prominence and excellence speaks to her ministry. So as a Christian leader, one would have to believe she was up in the rankings somewhere in ministry.
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C
Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?
Where is the scripture to show that Adam was standing NEXT to Eve? How do you know this? The Garden had many avenues and many trees. They didn't necessarily have to always be together. Anyway, it doesn't matter, because Adam had that choice as well. When Eve offered it to him, Adam said YES... when he could have, or should have said NO. Nobody forced him. Adam was deceived as well, whether by Eve or the serpent.... sin deceived Adam.
Where is the scripture to show that Adam was standing NEXT to Eve? How do you know this? The Garden had many avenues and many trees. They didn't necessarily have to always be together. Anyway, it doesn't matter, because Adam had that choice as well. When Eve offered it to him, Adam said YES... when he could have, or should have said NO. Nobody forced him. Adam was deceived as well, whether by Eve or the serpent.... sin deceived Adam.