The Original Pentecostal Movement

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Sep 8, 2012
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Yes ... I have an idea. Perhaps the twelfth name on the twelfth foundational pillar actually is Mattias ... and I guessed wrong the first time (quite possible ... perhaps even probable). And maybe Paul, being the apostle to the gentiles was just that. The apostle to the gentiles. As I said in my previous post, the answer to your question can only be speculated. And I certainly wouldn't conclude this to mean that we have many apostles amongst us today (mostly pentecostals, by chance) because we simply can't say either Paul or Mattias with certainty in regards to the twelve foundational pillars/the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Maybe the following contains the answer. It really doesn't make much difference to me either way.



1 Corinthians 15:3-8


[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, [SUP]4 [/SUP]that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me (Paul).



So Paul, called to be an apostle was the thirteenth then.
The apostle to the gentiles.
Yes, when he wrote that, he was the first and only, but not the last.

The twelve original apostles follow in the same order as Matthew 10:2-4
3.1SIMON, GIVEN THE NAME PETER or CEPHAS, 'THE ROCK' - A FISHERMAN
Peter worked among the Jews before he eventually reached Rome, where he was traditionally the first bishop. Along with the Apostle Paul, he may have been executed around AD64 during the persecutions of Emperor Nero, or later in AD67. Apparently he was crucified, head-down, at his own request. Later traditions claim that St. Peter's in Rome was built over his grave.
Mark's Gospel is based on Peter's teaching, and Peter wrote The First Letter of Peter. Scholars still question the authenticity of the Second Letter of Peter. Apocryphal works associated with his name, but dating from the 2nd century and later include the Gospel of St. Peter and the Apocalypse or Revelation of St. Peter.
3.2 ANDREW, BROTHER OF SIMON PETER - A FISHERMAN
Andrew was originally a disciple of John the Baptist. After the death and resurrection of Jesus, claims are that Andrew preached in Achaia (southern Greece) and Scythia (Ukraine and southern Russia - St. Andrew is the patron saint of Russia), and was crucified at Patras in Achaia. A later tradition describes him as being crucified in a spread-eagled position - hence the St. Andrew's cross of Scotland.
3.3 JAMES, SON OF ZEBEDEE - A FISHERMAN
(Acts 12:1-2)
During the persecutions of Herod Agrippa I, King of the Jews, in c AD44, the apostle James was beheaded - 'put to the sword' (Acts 12:1-2 following). Before his death, James the Greater as he is known to distinguish him from James, son of Alphaeus, preached in Jerusalem and Judea, modern Israel. A later Spanish tradition is that James preached the Gospel there sometime before his death.
Acts 12:1-2 - "It was at this time (of great famine, possibly around AD44) that King Herod laid violent hands on some of the Church members. James, John's brother, he executed with the sword ....."
3.4 JOHN, BROTHER OF JAMES and SON OF ZEBEDEE - A FISHERMAN
According to John's Gospel (19:26-27), it was probably John who took Mary, the mother of Jesus as his adopted mother. He preached in Jerusalem, and later, as bishop of Ephesus, south of Izmir in western Turkey, worked among the churches of Asia Minor. During the reigns of either Emperor Nero (AD54-68) or Domitian (AD81-96), he was banished to the nearby island of Patmos, now one of the Greek islands in the Aegean Sea. He was subsequently freed and died a natural death at Ephesus c AD100.
After decades of debate, many scholars accept that the apostle John wrote the Book of Revelation, perhaps as early as c AD68-70, and that he either wrote or provided the material and theology for John's Gospel and the three Letters of John.
3.5 PHILIP
Philip preached the Gospel in Phrygia (west central Turkey) before dying or being martyred there at Hieropolis.
The apostle should be distinguished from Philip the "deacon" or Evangelist, who preached to the people of Samaria and baptised the Ethiopian eunuch, Acts 8:4-8,26-39.
3.6 BARTHOLOMEW, also NATHANAEL
The missionary work of Bartholomew is linked with Armenia (present day Armenia, eastern Turkey, northern Iraq, north western Iran) and India. Other locations include Egypt, Arabia, Ethiopia and Persia (Iran). Traditionally he met his death by being flayed or skinned alive, and then beheaded. Derbent, north of present day Baku on the Caspian Sea may have been his place of martyrdom. Alternatively he may have suffered this cruel fate in what is now India.
3.7 THOMAS DIDYMUS - 'DOUBTING THOMAS'
Thomas may have laboured for the Gospel in Parthia (including modern Iraq and Iran), but stronger traditions link him with southern India. Indian Christians from the west coast Kerala area claim they were evangelized by Thomas, who was later speared to death near Madras on the east coast. Mount St. Thomas, close to Madras is associated with his name.
Apocryphal writings include the 3rd or 4th century Acts of Thomas, and the Gospel of Thomas.
3.8 MATTHEW, also LEVI - TAX-COLLECTOR/PUBLICAN
Nothing definite is known of Matthew's career. After preaching in Judea, different traditions place his missionary work and possible martyrdom in Ethiopia or Persia.
The first Gospel of the New Testament has from the earliest times been attributed to Matthew. This is now disputed by many scholars.
3.9 JAMES, SON OF ALPHAEUS
Known as James the Less, to distinguish him from James the Greater, son of Zebedee, but more likely because of his smaller stature than his relative importance. He, and Jude following, should not be confused with James and Jude (or Judas), the brothers of Jesus. Most commentators treat them as separate sets of brothers.
Tradition claims he first worked in Palestine (Israel) before preaching and martyrdom in Egypt.
3.10 JUDE, also THADDAEUS
Jude is also confused in some sources with Jude, one of the brothers of Jesus. He may have preached in Assyria (eastern Iraq) and Persia (Iran), before joining with Simon the Zealot and being killed with him in Persia.
3.11 SIMON THE ZEALOT or PATRIOT
Simon is referred to both as the "Cananaean" and the "Zealot". The titles may refer to him being "zealous", or to his membership of one of the Jewish revolutionary movements known as Zealots. Nothing else is known about him.
One tradition is that he first preached in Egypt, before joining Jude and travelling to Persia, where both were martyred. Simon may have been crucified or hacked to death.
3.12 JUDAS ISCARIOT
(Matthew 27:3-10; Acts 1:18-19)
Matthew 27:3-10- "Then (as Jesus was being handed over to Pilate) Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that he was condemned and in his remorse returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and elders, with the words, "I was wrong - I have betrayed an innocent man to death."
"And what has that got to do with us?" they replied. "That's your affair."
And Judas flung down the silver in the Temple and went outside and hanged himself. But the chief priests picked up the money and said, "It is not legal to put this into the Temple treasury. It is, after all, blood-money." So, after a further consultation, they purchased with it the Potter's Field to be a burial-ground for foreigners, which is why it is called "the Field of Blood" to this day. And so the words of Jeremiah the prophet came true:
'And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of him who was priced, whom they of the children of Israel priced, and gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord directed them' (Zechariah 11:12,13; Jeremiah 32:6-9)."
Acts 1:18-19 - "(After his crucifixion and resurrection, Jesus ascends to heaven. The disciples meet to choose a successor to Judas Iscariot, and his fate is briefly described by Luke in his Acts of the Apostles ....) This man (Judas) had bought a piece of land with the proceeds of his infamy, but his body swelled up and his intestines burst. This fact became well known to all the residents of Jerusalem so that the piece of land came to be called in their (Aramaic) language Akeldama, which means "the field of blood"."
4. MATTHIAS
As a disciple from the time of Jesus' baptism through to his death and resurrection, and possibly one of the 72 sent out to preach and heal, Matthias was chosen by prayer and the drawing of lots to replace Judas Iscariot as the twelfth apostle, Acts 1:15-26. No more is heard of him in the New Testament, and the various traditions are made more confusing because of the similarity of his name to Matthew's.
He may have preached and been martyred in Ethiopia, Other traditions place him in Judea, and later Cappadocia (eastern Turkey) and the Caspian Sea area.
5. PAUL OR SAUL OF TARSUS
Paul travelled widely, made at least three major missionary journeys,wrote many lettersof which thirteen still exist (some scholars dispute three of them), and his life and work is touched upon in a variety of ways in his letters. On returning to Jerusalem after his third journey, he was arrested and during his subsequent trials, as a Roman citizen "appealed to Caesar" for judgement - all covered by Acts 21-26. Chapters 27 and 28 then describe Paul's voyage and journey to Rome in fascinating nautical detail. Thereafter his life, and death is a matter of conjecture and tradition.
For some two years after his arrival in Rome, he was under house-arrest, before possibly being executed in the persecutions of Emperor Nero that followed the burning of Rome in AD64. If so, Paul's authorship of the three "Pastoral Letters" - 1 and 2 Timothy, and Titus - can be open to doubt.
However, there are strong traditions that on appeal to the Emperor on what was a Jewish religious charge, he was acquitted. He remained free for perhaps three years, revisiting Ephesus and other churches, and even going as far as Spain, before being re-arrested and sentenced to death. In his cell, he wrote his last letter - the Second Letter to Timothy - before execution around the year AD67.
Tradition is he was beheaded at a place now called Tre Fontane in Rome, and that the church of St. Paul stands over his grave.
The apocryphal "Acts of Paul" comes from the second century. They describe Paul as "a man small of stature, with a bald head and crooked legs, in a good state of body, with eyebrows meeting and nose somewhat hooked, full of friendliness; for now he appeared like a man, and now he had the face of an angel!"


- - Also Paul was a Benjaminite, and no less a jew than the others.
They were all apostles to the gentiles except James, the brother of Jesus, who was martyred in Jerusalem.
So we have thirteen jewish apostles.
twelve of which procelytized the gentile nations.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Zone is zone and she will get stuff from the 1850's in an attempt to prove you wrong. The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is just as real today as it was on the day of Pentecost. God doesn't change just the doctrine of men.
you my dear....were not overwhelmed by the Power from On High at Pentecost.

you were not there; you're not in the Bible, The Acts of The Apostles isn't about you.

tongues were real known languages.

there are no more prophets.

study up (tm Bowman)
 
A

AngelCakes

Guest
hi Fester.

i wonder if Kenneth Hagin is accepted by the old-time (?) pentecostals...i.e: The Original Pentecostal Movement?

the site you linked to has a lengthy portion on Hagin.

"KENNETH HAGIN, SR.

KENNETH HAGIN, SR. (1917- ) is one of the most influential Pentecostal leaders today. He claims that his teaching was given to him by God, but in fact he plagiarized heavily from the writings of E.W. KENYON (1867-1948). D.R. McConnell, in his book A Different Gospel, documents this with pages of comparisons proving beyond question that Hagin plagiarized Kenyon's writings. McConnel introduces this section of his book by saying: "Hagin has, indeed, copied word-for-word without documentation from Kenyon's writings. The following excerpts of plagiarisms from no less than eight books by E.W. Kenyon are presented as evidence of this charge. This is only a sampling of such plagiarisms. Many more could be cited." Plagiarism is not only deceit; it is a criminal offense.

Kenyon was a Baptist pastor and never joined the Pentecostal movement (though he did move in Pentecostal circles toward the end of his life), but his pioneer radio broadcasts and voluminous writings had broad influence in the Deeper Life and Pentecostal-Charismatic movements."....

THE STRANGE HISTORY OF PENTECOSTALISM PART 2 OF 3

i don't know...is he considered a fringe guy or heretic? or is he considered orthodox in the community?
opinions seem to vary. was he at one time orthodox but turned, or what? i guess that's part of the confusion....nobody really seems to want to own this guy...or do they? i don't know.

[video=youtube;X2V7KbbfRHA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2V7KbbfRHA[/video]

Kenneth E. Hagin - Drunk in the Spirit, Holy Laughter
that has got to be the stupidest video i have ever seen
since when does God want his people to act the part of fools...seriously, how do ppl fall for this stuff?
makes me mad
sorry...carry on
 
Dec 26, 2012
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lol....anyways...stephen, while you're here:

per rick's posts earlier, when you speak in tongues, is it a real language of real people from another country you haven't been to yet? if not, is there any possible way you could even post one official link that is trustworthy and authoritative that says tongues was always a private prayer language that nobody understands?

hopefully showing dat from The Acts the Apostles (who by all appearances normally spoke clearly and boldly and ppl understood them?)...like maybe peter said something about tongues, like today's. or john...or Jesus.

because i can understand John 17 okay. mind you, men translated it from greek and stuff.
okay thanks then.
Or to state another along the sames lines.

Paul says this under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 14

Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening,encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes?8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning.11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me.12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.
16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d]say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”[e]

22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy,however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

Paul's gist in that chapter is being able to understand the speaker,that being the case does it make any sense at all that if the entire congregation speaks English and someone starts speaking Swahili and NO ONE UNDERSTANDS Swahili,doesn't that go against what Paul says here about UNDERSTANDING the speaker or am I missing something here? Paul says prophesying is the better for understand because the entire body would understand it,so if God's way is understanding why then would God use Swahili in an English speaking congregation instead English when Paul plainly says that is the better way?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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that has got to be the stupidest video i have ever seen
since when does God want his people to act the part of fools...seriously, how do ppl fall for this stuff?
makes me mad
sorry...carry on
there IS a spiritual thing happening.
people seem to all testify (re: this drunk; laughter thing) that they couldn't stop it. it took control.


now, we need to decide if it is the Holy Spirit, or some other spirit.

Holy Intoxication – What It Means to be Drunk in the Spirit < google

...

i can speak about this clearly and without doubt, because it happened to me....exactly the way you see in the video.

out of the blue, by the laying on of hands. i had never heard of it, nor experienced it...i had zero idea such things occurred.
i found out later, after being delivered from it, that the people i was fellowshipping with at a "bible study" (where no one even looked at their bibles).....were directly from the Toronto Airport thing.

they called it the Toronto "Blessing". this "anointing" was and is literally "carried" by people and is passed on by the laying on of hands, and appears to effect anyone nearby, even without the laying on of hands.

there does NOT have to be ANY Bible preached, no words of God read or spoken...nothing.

what i found, while still "controlled" (deceived) by this thing....was that i MYSELF could then touch any UNBELIEVER - without saying anything to them about the Cross; Jesus Crucified, or even that i was a Christian....and they would melt, and fall to the ground and behave exactly like you see in the video.

one day i was standing with 2 women (i didn't know any better....i was amazed by this "power" - that I HAD) - and i said to one of them (an unbeliever, who didn't know i was a Christian): "Look what i can do" - and i touched her on the shoulder...and what you see in the video is what she did. just like i had.

so, was that The Holy Spirit? knocking over and making an unbeliever act drunk - IN THE STREET, in public - with no words from the gospel or any indication this was about Jesus or the Triune God?

you decide.

this paper is very dated....much more is written since then.
this is posted to show that people were all along saying don't do this.
do not get involved.

A paper on the Toronto Blessing, delivered on the 16 September 1995
John Richardson

Supporters of the Toronto Blessing frequently make two pleas to people who wish to assess or criticize it. FIRST, we are urged to approach it with an open mind. We are told to attend meetings for ourselves - and not critically, but asking God to bless US also if something real is happening. SECOND, we are urged to judge the phenomenon by its fruits - to look at the long-term results, not the immediate manifestations.

See for Yourself ...

However, it is far from an invariable biblical principle EITHER that we should assess claims to God's activity personally and uncritically, OR that we must look at the fruits to make an assessment. For example, claims that Christ has returned in secret are NOT to be assessed personally: "So, if they say to you, `Lo, he is in the wilderness,' DO NOT GO OUT". Nor are they to be assessed uncritically: "if they say, `Lo, he is in the inner rooms,' DO NOT BELIEVE IT" (Matt 24:26).

If the claim had been made that Jesus was in Toronto we would be entitled not to go and not to believe. Why should we then go if the claim is that the Spirit is moving in Toronto? Unbelief can be a sign of faith!

.........

this is the point i wanted to highlight:

"If the claim had been made that Jesus was in Toronto we would be entitled not to go and not to believe. Why should we then go if the claim is that the Spirit is moving in Toronto?"

these revivals always seem to center on a PLACE (with the same leaders initiating and continuing the thing)....you GO TO a place, and God (The Holy Spirit) shows up there, and does things.

like John Richardson, my simple question now is: is this biblical.

.....

now read what Paul Gowdy says:

The Toronto Deception
By a former Toronto Vineyard Pastor

The Toronto Deception

...

you decide.
 
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Aug 15, 2009
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that has got to be the stupidest video i have ever seen
since when does God want his people to act the part of fools...seriously, how do ppl fall for this stuff?
makes me mad
sorry...carry on
I know, right? Her & her little pack live on destroying the Pentecostal & Charismatic movements.....they put all of us in 1 box & condemn us all. They find the worst examples & tell the world we are like that. Then when you try to debunk it, they gang up on you to divide your thoughts & derail you. It's a system that's used over & over again.

What's worse, nothing is ever done about it.

Better off not to argue with them...... they will run you in the ground. That's what they want. It's not about being right..... it's about beating anyone who disagrees with them.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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I know, right? Her & her little pack live on destroying the Pentecostal & Charismatic movements.....they put all of us in 1 box & condemn us all. They find the worst examples & tell the world we are like that. Then when you try to debunk it, they gang up on you to divide your thoughts & derail you. It's a system that's used over & over again.

What's worse, nothing is ever done about it.

Better off not to argue with them...... they will run you in the ground. That's what they want. It's not about being right..... it's about beating anyone who disagrees with them.
n when you try to debunk it
debunk what.
to the best of my knowledge you have not yet addressed Kenneth Hagin (the fellow in the video). or have you.
would you mind addressing his and or his teachings and practices...because:

according to most accounts, he was a leading figure in the 2 movements you say are the last 2 true movements before the judgment.

not sure anyone denies that...i certainly didnt make it up.

...

The Statement of faith of Hagin's Rhema Bible Training College is identical to that of the Assemblies of God and most other major Pentecostal denominations. (Rhema Bible Training College Information Pamphlet; 16 Fundamental Truths of the Assemblies of God) Additionally, as mentioned above, some of Hagin's theological beliefs and teachings were similar to those of E.W. Kenyon.

Hagin founded Rhema Bible Training College (RBTC) in 1974. RBTC is an educational accreditation Bible institute located on 110 acres (0.45 km2) in Broken Arrow, a suburb of Tulsa, Oklahoma (USA). The curriculum is taught from a Charismatic/Pentecostal heritage. There are seven ministry concentrations specializing in Children's Ministry, Youth Ministry, Evangelism, Pastoral Care, Missions, Biblical Studies, and Supportive Ministry.[3] RBTC has also established training centers in Austria, Brazil, Colombia, Germany, India, Indonesia, Italy, Mexico, Peru, Romania, Singapore, South Africa, the South Pacific, Thailand, Nigeria, Zambia, and Egypt.[4]

Kenneth E. Hagin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

now that is a lot of influence.
so there is no question about the popularity of Mr. Hagin - and teachings.
but if he wasnt part of the 2 true movements (as so many say he was)- what was he.

Kenneth Hagin Ministries
Home of Rhema Ministries | Kenneth Hagin Ministries

....

so not sure about the LUMPING...only someone who knows where they stand with the movement could unlump...but apparently that is not easy or important to do....for some reason i cant imagine.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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The WOF movement isn't a christian movement. It's heresy. Kenneth Hagin isn't a true part of the Pentecostal movement.
1 John 2:18-19 (KJV) [SUP]18 [/SUP]Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. [SUP]19[/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
 
R

Richie_2uk

Guest
Still on the subject of Pentecostal movement? Geeeez you would think you would better things discuss about. lol For those who are mocking, disbelieving, pointing the finger at different belief's, faths, religion and movements? Come on people there are better things to learn about God than pick at people's faults or mis-haps, or problems at things.

To put it bluntly, you people will never find a perfect church. So stop wasting your time looking for one. and stop pointing the finger judging others about there belief's. Just remember, you point with one finger, you have 3 pointing back at you.
Let people believe in what they want. Who are we to say you are in the wrong movement, or religion, or faith or belief? Do you know what is right belief? No!

Let your journey be personal between you and God, the God you believe in. and stop pointing out the right and wrongs in others.
 

Enow

Banned
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
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I know, right? Her & her little pack live on destroying the Pentecostal & Charismatic movements.....they put all of us in 1 box & condemn us all. They find the worst examples & tell the world we are like that. Then when you try to debunk it, they gang up on you to divide your thoughts & derail you. It's a system that's used over & over again.

What's worse, nothing is ever done about it.

Better off not to argue with them...... they will run you in the ground. That's what they want. It's not about being right..... it's about beating anyone who disagrees with them.
If you agree that the "holy laughter" movement is not of God, then how do you explain the focus on the Holy Spirit for these signs & wonders to occur by calling on Him to come & fall on them or to visit them again?

These signs can be initiated without it in the beginning, but afterwards, they would call on the Holy Spirit and it would happen again with other strange signs and lying wonders.

And you are right to complain about not having the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches to be singled out because the "holy laughter" movement occurred in Catholics & Protestant churches as it was no longer a streamlined Pentecostal/Charismatic event as reported by the 700 Club in 1994.

So what is the discernment here? Jesus said that false prophets will broaden the way in christian chruches.. and yet we know Jesus is the only way to the Father. ( John 14:6 ) We know the purpose of prayer is for the Father to be glorified in the Son ( John 14:13-14 ) because the Son is handling all the "direct" intercessions bysearching our hearts & knowing the mind of the Spirit which is why "itself" was used as groanings which cannot be uttered meas no sound as the KJV got it right in Romans 8:26-27 and all modern Bibles got it wrong, thus keeping to 1 Timothy 2:5 about Christ being the only Mediator between God & man, as in the man Christ Jesus, the risen Saviour at that throne of grace ( Hebrews 4:12-16 ).

Since Jesus is the only way to the Father, then by broadening the way to include the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son and infer the Holy Spirit as another "GO TO" Person of the Triune God in the hymnals, is it any wonder why many houses are falling because they ignored the commandment of His invitation?

Matthew 7:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Was not the holy laughter movement ecumenical in nature, gathering grapes of thorns & figs of thistles? Was this not all stealing the spotlight away from the Son to cause these wayward believers to chase after seducing spirits for a sign, and thus becoming an adulterous generation in departing from faith and away from relating to God only thru the Bridegroom?

Was not the broadening of the way in the worship place is the reason why manu houses were falling?

Matthew 7:[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: [SUP]25 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

One would say: oh.. Jesus said that He did not know them and so they were never saved. Not true. Any iniquity is a work that denies Him.

Titus 1:[SUP]13 [/SUP]This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; [SUP]14 [/SUP]Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. [SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

So what is Luke's account on what Jesus said that would show how to avoid that iniquity to prevent the falling of our houses?

Luke 13:[SUP]24 [/SUP]Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Who is the gate?

John 10:[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

1 Corinthians 1:[SUP]9 [/SUP]God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Called only to the fellowship with the Son?

John 14:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Is that a judgment waiting on every believer in fellowship, prayer, & worship?

John 5:[SUP]22 [/SUP]For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: [SUP]23 [/SUP]That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

What is the iniquity for believers to avoid?

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

That means we cannot honour the Father by honouring the Holy Spirit. We cannot glorify the Father by glorifying the Holy Spirit. The real indwelling Holy Spirit is sent to NOT speak of Himself ( John 16:13 ) BUT to glorify the Son ( John 16:14 ) so that means those led by the Spirit of God will be doing the same thing as led by the Spirit to do... to honour the Son.

It is telltaling when a church broadens the way in how we come to God the Father in fellowship, prayer, & worship, that seducing spirits come in take the spotlight off of the Son in worship which the real indwelling Holy Spirit would never do.

So yes... Pentecostal/Charismatics are not the only denomenations in trouble because the way have been broadened in teh worship place to include the Holy Spirit thus breaking the commandment of His invitation & ignoring the role of the Holy Spirit in what the will of the Father is for believers to do in coming to worship Him IN spirit & IN truth by honouring the Son.

That is why the holy laughter movement went across the denomenations.. and why every church should narrow the way back to the straight gate if they wish to be found abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes.
 

zone

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The WOF movement isn't a christian movement. It's heresy. Kenneth Hagin isn't a true part of the Pentecostal movement.
1 John 2:18-19 (KJV) [SUP]18 [/SUP]Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. [SUP]19[/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
okay! thanks stephen.

...

so Mr. Hagin is out.

but CRI says (footnote) in an article on that movement - and Mr. Hagin - that:

9. For a fine historical treatment of the healing revivalists, see David Edwin Harrell, Jr., All Things Are Possible: The Healing and Charismatic Revivals in Modern America (Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press, 1975). A number of the healing revivalists' unsound teachings and practices can be found in the ministries of their predecessors — most notably John Alexander Dowie, Maria B. Woodworth-Etter, Smith Wigglesworth, F. F. Bosworth, and Thomas Wyatt...

http://www.equip.org/PDF/JAW755-1.pdf
...

and :

Faith teachers such as Robert Tilton and his female counterpart, Marilyn Hickey, have copied many of the scams pioneered by Pentecostal preachers such as Oral Roberts and A. A. Allen.

http://www.equip.org/PDF/JAW755-1.pdf p. 2

what about AA Allen?

...

Oral Roberts University has a page with the history, which matches pretty much everything has been posted...:

Holy Spirit Research Center
The Origins of the Pentecostal Movement
The Origins of the Pentecostal Movement - Oral Roberts University - A Christian College, based in Tulsa Oklahoma.

but....i don't know what your position is on Mr. Roberts, either.

and it's hard to know how to unlump, without some help - because this all lines up, and the names are in there...so what do we do except look for what each one taught and believed?:

...

Gaston B. Cashwell, a minister of the Methodist Church, joined Crumpler's group in 1903. He became a leading figure in the church and the Pentecostal movement on the east coast.[14] In 1906, he traveled to Los Angeles to visit the Pentecostal revival at the Azusa Street mission. While there he professed having received the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the evidence of speaking in tongues. Upon returning to Dunn, North Carolina, in December 1906, Cashwell preached the Pentecost experience in the local holiness church.

The influence of the Pentecostal renewal grew while, at the same time, the leader and founder of the church, Abner Crumpler, though willing to accept speaking in tongues, did not accept the idea that it was the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.[7] At the annual conference of 1908, Crumpler was re-elected president of the body; however, with a majority of the delegates having experienced tongues, he permanently disaffiliated himself from the church.[15] After Crumpler's departure, the conference added an article to the statement of faith, recognizing tongues as the initial evidence:

We believe the pentecostal baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire is obtainable by a definite act of appropriating faith on the part of the fully cleansed believer, and the initial evidence of the reception of this experience is speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance (Luke 11:13; Acts 1:5; 2:1-4; 8:17; 10:44-46; 19:6).[16]

This is apparently the first official Pentecostal doctrinal statement adopted by a church in the United States.[17] As a further sign of its new identity, the word "Pentecostal" was once again added to the denomination's name in 1909.[18]

International Pentecostal Holiness Church
[Several ministers who were raised in the Pentecostal Holiness Church have come to have greater name recognition than the church itself, such as Oral Roberts, an internationally known charismatic evangelist; Charles Stanley, a former president of the Southern Baptist Convention; and C.M. Ward, a former Assemblies of God radio preacher.[7]]

International Pentecostal Holiness Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


^ Burgess, Stanley M; Ed M Van der Maas (2002). The New International Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements. Zondervan Pub. House. ISBN 0-310-22481-0. p. 798


so, it's a little hard for both of us stephen (you and i) to reach an understanding when what we actually believe is not spelled out. it might be unfair of you to insist there's a lumping, without at least agreeing the lumping appears to be bigger than both of us. unlumping would be very useful...and so easy...but that would be what you would want to do, since i can't seem to do it.:)

is it the title Pentecostal we're stuck on?

if there's a particular name for the kind of Pentecostalism you hold to, (Re: The Original Pentecostal Movement?) - could you just say what it is? :)

that would make things very much clearer. if you can't or won't do that, you don't really have any reason to make remarks about ppl trying to sort it all out - wouldn't you say?

i mean....you have every right to of course...but apparently not much reason to.

this i find puzzling.

k.......zone.
 
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Or to state another along the sames lines.

Paul says this under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 14

Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening,encouraging and comfort.4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
If read in totality of context: Paul under inspiration of the Holy Spirit says - (2a) For he that speaketh in an tongue speaketh not unto men but unto God: (4,5) He that speaketh in an tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes?8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning.11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me.12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say.14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.
16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d]say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying?17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

Again: Full context - Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh a barbarian unto me. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual; seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an tongue pray that he may interpret.

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”[e]

22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy,however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding that by my voice I might teach others also than ten thousand words in an tongue - taken in full context we can't take this without understanding - "except he interpret that the church may receive edifying" and "let him that speaketh in an tongue pray that he may interpret."

If therefore the whole church be come together in one place and all speak with tongues, and there come in unlearned, or unbelievers will they not say
that ye are mad? This is what they were doing - this is the correction - If any man speak in an tongue, let it be by two or at the most by three, and that by course and let one interpret. (back to v5b and 13) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. IOW - if the person speaking in tongues cannot believe that God will give the interpretation to him - he speaks to himself and to God.
Paul's gist in that chapter is being able to understand the speaker,that being the case does it make any sense at all that if the entire congregation speaks English and someone starts speaking Swahili and NO ONE UNDERSTANDS Swahili,doesn't that go against what Paul says here about UNDERSTANDING the speaker or am I missing something here? Paul says prophesying is the better for understand because the entire body would understand it,so if God's way is understanding why then would God use Swahili in an English speaking congregation instead English when Paul plainly says that is the better way?
Paul's gist is that if the person speaking in tongues cannot believe to interpret - keep his mouth shut and speak to himself and God. Paul says prophesying is greater than tongues unless interpreted so the church may receive edifying.

Bottom line - How is it then, brethren? when ye come together everyone of you
hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. . . . .

Conclusion: Let all things be done decently and in order.
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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i guess one other thing stephen, would be that you mentioned there are actually 2 true movements before the judgment.

so tsk...it would seem good to know which 2 movements - exactly by name and description.

if they are the true ones, everyone should know. help?:)
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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If read in totality of context: Paul under inspiration of the Holy Spirit says - (2a) For he that speaketh in an tongue speaketh not unto men but unto God: (4,5) He that speaketh in an tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret that the church may receive edifying.
are those tongues ^ different from these:

Acts 2
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,b 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

and are your tongues different from those ^^ ?

...


unrelated tech note: anyone - how do i get rid of this FB/Twitter/Email/Print toolbar on the left here?
arg!

can't see nothin and it keeps wanting me to tweet or something. heeeeeelp
 
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are those tongues ^ different from these:

Acts 2
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,b 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

and are your tongues different from those ^^ ?
I'm not sure what you mean but there is only one gift of holy spirit - it was given on the day of Pentecost. Everyone who repents and is baptized receives the gift of holy spirit (Acts 2:38) and within this gift is nine manifestations given to every man to profit (1 Cor. 12:7). Sometimes when tongues are spoken and interpreted there have been people in the fellowship that have a knowledge of the tongue spoken - Now if you are asking me - Do I speak the language of Parthians, Medes, Elamites, etc. - don't know - "but there are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world and none of them is without signification. therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.. . . . Wherefore let him that speaketh in an tongue pray that he may interpret. . . ."

"If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues and there come in unlearned or unbelievers will they not say that ye are mad? . . . . Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine (Acts 2:13)" Apparently, EVERYONE did not hear them speak the wonderful works of God in their own tongue.
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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Sometimes when tongues are spoken and interpreted there have been people in the fellowship that have a knowledge of the tongue spoken - Now if you are asking me - Do I speak the language of Parthians, Medes, Elamites, etc. - don't know
hi peaceful.

"Sometimes when tongues are spoken and interpreted there have been people in the fellowship that have a knowledge of the tongue spoken "

....do you mean that, someone speaks in a tongue they themselves do not understand.....then you actually have someone else in the fellowship who says it is "German; or French; (or whichever)"?

are they the ones who interpret?
 
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hi peaceful.

"Sometimes when tongues are spoken and interpreted there have been people in the fellowship that have a knowledge of the tongue spoken "

....do you mean that, someone speaks in a tongue they themselves do not understand.....then you actually have someone else in the fellowship who says it is "German; or French; (or whichever)"?

are they the ones who interpret?
Hi zone.

Nope. . . . the one who speaks in tongues does the interpreting - 5b "except he interpret" - 13b "pray that he may interpret". Sometimes - a person in the fellowship will come up afterward - after the meeting - and say or verify that they have knowledge of that language - verify it was a language and that the interpretation was true.

I would like to say it is God via the gift of holy spirit that does the speaking - through possession? NO - I operate the faculties of speaking but God gives the words that I speak
in tongues and interpretation - IOW - I don't have to think beforehand mentally what is going to be said. tongues and interpretation are manifestations of the holy Spirit - they can be utilized or not - doesn't have anything to do with salvation. A person is born again because of their faith in Christ NOT dependent upon their utilizing the gift God has given them.
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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Hi zone.

Nope. . . . the one who speaks in tongues does the interpreting - 5b "except he interpret" - 13b "pray that he may interpret". Sometimes - a person in the fellowship will come up afterward - after the meeting - and say or verify that they have knowledge of that language - verify it was a language and that the interpretation was true.

I would like to say it is God via the gift of holy spirit that does the speaking - through possession? NO - I operate the faculties of speaking but God gives the words that I speak
in tongues and interpretation - IOW - I don't have to think beforehand mentally what is going to be said. tongues and interpretation are manifestations of the holy Spirit - they can be utilized or not - doesn't have anything to do with salvation. A person is born again because of their faith in Christ NOT dependent upon their utilizing the gift God has given them.
hi peaceful:

Sometimes - a person in the fellowship will come up afterward - after the meeting - and say or verify that they have knowledge of that language - verify it was a language and that the interpretation was true.

this is a remarkable statement. if this is true, it would come close to being the gift of languages described in the bible, if not being the actual gift.

the only problem with this is - do you know you can trust the one who comes and says that was a real language and the interpretation was true?

i'm sure you'll say yes of course....i'm not challenging that per say.....it's really unfortunate for the broader church that these events are not recorded so we can simply verify. that would put the whole matter to rest...worldwide, once and for all.

you know - having linguists verifying real languages.

i'm currently looking for an acceptable worldwide demographic on people who speak in tongues, so that we can see the ratio of practice to potential verification - with so many speaking tongues, there must be evidence of real languages available any given worship day.

anyway...this isn't really a cessationist vs continuationist thread - though it might become one, if we can agree on what is pentecostalism (defining doctrines).

k....ttyl....z
 
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hi peaceful:

Sometimes - a person in the fellowship will come up afterward - after the meeting - and say or verify that they have knowledge of that language - verify it was a language and that the interpretation was true.

this is a remarkable statement. if this is true, it would come close to being the gift of languages described in the bible, if not being the actual gift.

the only problem with this is - do you know you can trust the one who comes and says that was a real language and the interpretation was true?

i'm sure you'll say yes of course....i'm not challenging that per say.....it's really unfortunate for the broader church that these events are not recorded so we can simply verify. that would put the whole matter to rest...worldwide, once and for all.

you know - having linguists verifying real languages.

i'm currently looking for an acceptable worldwide demographic on people who speak in tongues, so that we can see the ratio of practice to potential verification - with so many speaking tongues, there must be evidence of real languages available any given worship day.

anyway...this isn't really a cessationist vs continuationist thread - though it might become one, if we can agree on what is pentecostalism (defining doctrines).

k....ttyl....z
ty zone.

I believe that the only way to verify using these manifestations in the church is to line it up with scripture. I have read nothing in scripture concerning "holy laughter" in this context - nor being "slain in the spirit" - nor anything that involves confusion. I am not saying that the tongues are not real - all of it is just not done "by two or at the most by three and by course (in order) and one interprets (the same one). People seem to get hyped up on emotion . . . which just sets a bad example of how the church should operate.


You are right - sorry to derail :)
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
debunk what.
to the best of my knowledge you have not yet addressed Kenneth Hagin (the fellow in the video). or have you.
would you mind addressing his and or his teachings and practices...because:

according to most accounts, he was a leading figure in the 2 movements you say are the last 2 true movements before the judgment.

not sure anyone denies that...i certainly didnt make it up.

...

The Statement of faith of Hagin's Rhema Bible Training College is identical to that of the Assemblies of God and most other major Pentecostal denominations. (Rhema Bible Training College Information Pamphlet; 16 Fundamental Truths of the Assemblies of God) Additionally, as mentioned above, some of Hagin's theological beliefs and teachings were similar to those of E.W. Kenyon.

Hagin founded Rhema Bible Training College (RBTC) in 1974. RBTC is an educational accreditation Bible institute located on 110 acres (0.45 km2) in Broken Arrow, a suburb of Tulsa, Oklahoma (USA). The curriculum is taught from a Charismatic/Pentecostal heritage. There are seven ministry concentrations specializing in Children's Ministry, Youth Ministry, Evangelism, Pastoral Care, Missions, Biblical Studies, and Supportive Ministry.[3] RBTC has also established training centers in Austria, Brazil, Colombia, Germany, India, Indonesia, Italy, Mexico, Peru, Romania, Singapore, South Africa, the South Pacific, Thailand, Nigeria, Zambia, and Egypt.[4]

Kenneth E. Hagin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

now that is a lot of influence.
so there is no question about the popularity of Mr. Hagin - and teachings.
but if he wasnt part of the 2 true movements (as so many say he was)- what was he.

Kenneth Hagin Ministries
Home of Rhema Ministries | Kenneth Hagin Ministries

....

so not sure about the LUMPING...only someone who knows where they stand with the movement could unlump...but apparently that is not easy or important to do....for some reason i cant imagine.
This man also took liberty and called his own and plagiarized many truths another man Named E.W. Kenyon wrote and developed I cannot get behind Hagin or his Son who now runs the ministry after Hagin died. In my opinion, the WOF movement is deception and heresy.