The Original Pentecostal Movement

konroh · Nov 6, 2013

I like this, but you really should footnote the website you're getting this from, especially for such an extensive quote. Peace

Enow · Nov 6, 2013

SarahM777 said:

The right Bible can keep the message for us to learn by.

1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]25 [/SUP]And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Not among you. Here's why.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world....3...........and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The spirit of the antichrist is outside of us. Our faith shows the real Holy Spirit is in us.

Believers that use Matthew 18:20 as implying the Spirit being in the worship place are ignoring the context of verse 19.

Matthew 18:[SUP]19 [/SUP]Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus always referred to the Holy Spirit & His role as He or Him, and when Jesus speaks of His own role, He says what He is going to do, therefore Jesus was referring to His future role as our only Mediator between God and man when it comes to prayer. The Greek text also is defined as inbetween and not just among. In context, that is the meaning of the text as being inbetween us as our Mediator.

It is important, otherwise.... the line is blurred for our discernment and then no one can test the spirits if they believe there is a slight chance the Holy Spirit might be out there where the spirits of the antichrists dwells.

AngelCakes · Nov 7, 2013

zone said:

there IS a spiritual thing happening.
people seem to all testify (re: this drunk; laughter thing) that they couldn't stop it. it took control.

now, we need to decide if it is the Holy Spirit, or some other spirit.

Holy Intoxication – What It Means to be Drunk in the Spirit < google

...

i can speak about this clearly and without doubt, because it happened to me....exactly the way you see in the video.

out of the blue, by the laying on of hands. i had never heard of it, nor experienced it...i had zero idea such things occurred.
i found out later, after being delivered from it, that the people i was fellowshipping with at a "bible study" (where no one even looked at their bibles).....were directly from the Toronto Airport thing.

they called it the Toronto "Blessing". this "anointing" was and is literally "carried" by people and is passed on by the laying on of hands, and appears to effect anyone nearby, even without the laying on of hands.

there does NOT have to be ANY Bible preached, no words of God read or spoken...nothing.

what i found, while still "controlled" (deceived) by this thing....was that i MYSELF could then touch any UNBELIEVER - without saying anything to them about the Cross; Jesus Crucified, or even that i was a Christian....and they would melt, and fall to the ground and behave exactly like you see in the video.

one day i was standing with 2 women (i didn't know any better....i was amazed by this "power" - that I HAD) - and i said to one of them (an unbeliever, who didn't know i was a Christian): "Look what i can do" - and i touched her on the shoulder...and what you see in the video is what she did. just like i had.

so, was that The Holy Spirit? knocking over and making an unbeliever act drunk - IN THE STREET, in public - with no words from the gospel or any indication this was about Jesus or the Triune God?

you decide.

this paper is very dated....much more is written since then.
this is posted to show that people were all along saying don't do this.
do not get involved.

A paper on the Toronto Blessing, delivered on the 16 September 1995
John Richardson

Supporters of the Toronto Blessing frequently make two pleas to people who wish to assess or criticize it. FIRST, we are urged to approach it with an open mind. We are told to attend meetings for ourselves - and not critically, but asking God to bless US also if something real is happening. SECOND, we are urged to judge the phenomenon by its fruits - to look at the long-term results, not the immediate manifestations.

See for Yourself ...

However, it is far from an invariable biblical principle EITHER that we should assess claims to God's activity personally and uncritically, OR that we must look at the fruits to make an assessment. For example, claims that Christ has returned in secret are NOT to be assessed personally: "So, if they say to you, `Lo, he is in the wilderness,' DO NOT GO OUT". Nor are they to be assessed uncritically: "if they say, `Lo, he is in the inner rooms,' DO NOT BELIEVE IT" (Matt 24:26).

If the claim had been made that Jesus was in Toronto we would be entitled not to go and not to believe. Why should we then go if the claim is that the Spirit is moving in Toronto? Unbelief can be a sign of faith!

.........

this is the point i wanted to highlight:

"If the claim had been made that Jesus was in Toronto we would be entitled not to go and not to believe. Why should we then go if the claim is that the Spirit is moving in Toronto?"

these revivals always seem to center on a PLACE (with the same leaders initiating and continuing the thing)....you GO TO a place, and God (The Holy Spirit) shows up there, and does things.

like John Richardson, my simple question now is: is this biblical.

.....

now read what Paul Gowdy says:

The Toronto Deception
By a former Toronto Vineyard Pastor

The Toronto Deception

...

you decide.

i wasn't bashing what you were saying at all
and maybe you are right, maybe there is something spiritual going on there (sounds like you would know better then me) but to me, it seemed a little fake when it showed ken copeland and ken haggin. it looked like they were just 'performing'. i'd rather go to the circus and see a real show

Stephen63: I wasn't disagreeing with zone at all. maybe her and her little pack (whatever that means) are bent on destroying the pentecostal and charismatic movements, but from what i have personally experienced and studied, these two 'movements' definitely seem to be more about the 'feeling' and 'current revelation' that God might be giving, then actually relying on the revelation He has already given. I came across this gem of a scripture the other day...

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, [SUP]2 [/SUP]but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." Hebrews 1:1-2

why are Jesus' words suddenly not good enough and we have to go listening to 'prophets' again?

not to derail the thread or anything

Angela53510 · Nov 7, 2013

Stephen63 said:

Not sure who you are tarring with the same brush you constantly try to tar Zone with, but I assume I am one, since your earlier erroneous post about me and what I believe about women in ministry.

This post is about doctrine. About the origins of doctrine in the Pentecostal Movement. I think that is what the OP was about, and we seem to have strayed from it.

Stephen, you have yet to post any links defending your doctrine, and/or the origins of the movement. All you do is post negative and paranoid things. I would rather read your positive opinions and Scriptures to support your position and the origins of your movement.

It makes me worry that you think we are attacking you, when everyone has been very level headed about trying to uncover the truth. You have not posted any reasons why we should believe in the Pentecostal movement in this whole thread.

I know I have learned a lot reading the information, and it has reaffirmed what I have believed even while in the movement, before I was able to leave.

Basically, that there is a recent history for this heresy of a second baptism, and that I do believe that the Holy Spirit dwells within us from the moment of salvation, not from days, months or years later, when someone says,

"If your Christian walk is dry and boring, come up and be prayed over for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit" Do you know how many times I heard this said in various ways in my 15 years as a Pentecostal??? That is just bad doctrine. It's like saying you are not saved till you speak in tongues (I know you do not believe this, but others in this forum do!)

It also implies something that is not found in Scripture. In fact, the Bible is quite clear that the Holy Spirit transforms us as we walk daily with God. We need to be studying the Word, praying and active in a fellowship. It is immature to think that a sudden "baptism" is going to be the miracle that changes a person suddenly into something they are not. Or that it will give them power they didn't have before when walking with God.

Besides, if a thread in a Christian forum can destroy the entire movement, then maybe it was not a movement of God in the first place???

RickyZ · Nov 7, 2013

zone said:

there IS a spiritual thing happening.
people seem to all testify (re: this drunk; laughter thing) that they couldn't stop it. it took control.

now, we need to decide if it is the Holy Spirit, or some other spirit.

Holy Intoxication – What It Means to be Drunk in the Spirit < google

...

i can speak about this clearly and without doubt, because it happened to me....exactly the way you see in the video.

out of the blue, by the laying on of hands. i had never heard of it, nor experienced it...i had zero idea such things occurred.
i found out later, after being delivered from it, that the people i was fellowshipping with at a "bible study" (where no one even looked at their bibles).....were directly from the Toronto Airport thing.

they called it the Toronto "Blessing". this "anointing" was and is literally "carried" by people and is passed on by the laying on of hands, and appears to effect anyone nearby, even without the laying on of hands.

there does NOT have to be ANY Bible preached, no words of God read or spoken...nothing.

what i found, while still "controlled" (deceived) by this thing....was that i MYSELF could then touch any UNBELIEVER - without saying anything to them about the Cross; Jesus Crucified, or even that i was a Christian....and they would melt, and fall to the ground and behave exactly like you see in the video.

one day i was standing with 2 women (i didn't know any better....i was amazed by this "power" - that I HAD) - and i said to one of them (an unbeliever, who didn't know i was a Christian): "Look what i can do" - and i touched her on the shoulder...and what you see in the video is what she did. just like i had.

so, was that The Holy Spirit? knocking over and making an unbeliever act drunk - IN THE STREET, in public - with no words from the gospel or any indication this was about Jesus or the Triune God?

you decide.

this paper is very dated....much more is written since then.
this is posted to show that people were all along saying don't do this.
do not get involved.

A paper on the Toronto Blessing, delivered on the 16 September 1995
John Richardson

Supporters of the Toronto Blessing frequently make two pleas to people who wish to assess or criticize it. FIRST, we are urged to approach it with an open mind. We are told to attend meetings for ourselves - and not critically, but asking God to bless US also if something real is happening. SECOND, we are urged to judge the phenomenon by its fruits - to look at the long-term results, not the immediate manifestations.

See for Yourself ...

However, it is far from an invariable biblical principle EITHER that we should assess claims to God's activity personally and uncritically, OR that we must look at the fruits to make an assessment. For example, claims that Christ has returned in secret are NOT to be assessed personally: "So, if they say to you, `Lo, he is in the wilderness,' DO NOT GO OUT". Nor are they to be assessed uncritically: "if they say, `Lo, he is in the inner rooms,' DO NOT BELIEVE IT" (Matt 24:26).

If the claim had been made that Jesus was in Toronto we would be entitled not to go and not to believe. Why should we then go if the claim is that the Spirit is moving in Toronto? Unbelief can be a sign of faith!

.........

this is the point i wanted to highlight:

"If the claim had been made that Jesus was in Toronto we would be entitled not to go and not to believe. Why should we then go if the claim is that the Spirit is moving in Toronto?"

these revivals always seem to center on a PLACE (with the same leaders initiating and continuing the thing)....you GO TO a place, and God (The Holy Spirit) shows up there, and does things.

like John Richardson, my simple question now is: is this biblical.

.....

now read what Paul Gowdy says:

The Toronto Deception
By a former Toronto Vineyard Pastor

The Toronto Deception

...

you decide.

Well that explains a lot. No that is most definately of the enemy. Helps me understand your fear of embracing spiritual things. But that's where discernment comes in, which you have been given in this case. Hey look! The cessationist worked a gift of the Spirit! Hallelujah!

BUT - does not satan live to counterfeit the things of God? So if satan is producing this counterfeit 'slaying of the spirit', would that not be evidence of there being a genuine slaying of the Spirit? So do we throw the baby out with the bathwater, or do we ask for continued discernment? Oh that's right, you can't ask for things you don't believe in ... or, maybe, are afraid to believe in? Yeah that experience would have spiritually scared me. And it's a dangerous slope. But I've learned that discernment is a gift, one that is still given today, as you have demonstrated here.

I still think you believe in the gifts, you just don't believe in the circus that so often surrounds those who seek them. I'm with you there, you think my opinions are strong on the LCMS... the only thing worse than denying the gifts is abusing them.

Baby with the bath water. That's why we have the gift of discernment, so we can tell the baby from the bathwater.

SarahM777 · Nov 7, 2013

RickyZ said:

UMMM But doesn't that got the question of why if so many who claim they have the gifts of the spirit that are the same ones supporting these people? Why the lack of discernment in the first place? How do these these teachers and prophets even get so far when one of the gifts is DISCERNMENT? How does that make sense? Shouldn't the very people who claim to have been baptized into,having the full giftings of the spirit be calling the false prophets out INSTEAD of supporting them? Isn't that an oxy-moron?

SarahM777 · Nov 7, 2013

And that bodes another oxy-moron,why then is it that the very ones that seem to rarely speak out against the falseness of many of them are the very ones who claim to be have the full gifts of the spirit? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't it be the ones that claim they have the gifts That should be the first and more vocal against the ones who are false?

zone · Nov 7, 2013

OCTOBER 17, 2013
Strange Fire – Is There a Baby in the Bathwater? – Phil Johnson
by Mike Riccardi
Strange Fire – Is There a Baby in the Bathwater? – Phil Johnson | the Cripplegate

zone · Nov 7, 2013

RickyZ said:

well thanks for your input, but this was sorted out long before today.

The Toronto Blessing was of the enemy...interesting.
we simply look at the pedigree.

RickyZ said:

fear of (and revulsion of) embracing demonic things calling themselves holy - and a duty to show others the danger....having been delivered without question only by the hand of The Living God - the True Spirit leading out, and showing MARKERS all along the way. for a reason. real signs....danger signs.

there's no baby in your bathwater.

only delusion.

SarahM777 · Nov 7, 2013

1still_waters said:

Just one other thing on this,too often we forget the context of culture. What we see as being wrong and to what degree does not mean to them it was wrong in that time. We are looking through the filter of a culture in 2013 and not 1905,1596 etc. It was not uncommon in the 1900's and it was not viewed in the same cultural light as is it now.

zone · Nov 7, 2013

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

The Toronto Blessing produced "hysteria and uncontrolled behavior which would be socially unacceptable in any other circumstance". - Wade Cox

Stephen63 · Nov 7, 2013

zone said:

As usual, you're going back to the trash & derailing your own thread. No surprise. That's what you wanted to do anyway. Don't look now, your true motives are showing.

SarahM777 · Nov 7, 2013

peacefulbeliever said:

If read in totality of context: Paul under inspiration of the Holy Spirit says - (2a) For he that speaketh in an tongue speaketh not unto men but unto God: (4,5) He that speaketh in an tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret that the church may receive edifying.

Again: Full context - Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh a barbarian unto me. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual; seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an tongue pray that he may interpret.

Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding that by my voice I might teach others also than ten thousand words in an tongue - taken in full context we can't take this without understanding - "except he interpret that the church may receive edifying" and "let him that speaketh in an tongue pray that he may interpret."

If therefore the whole church be come together in one place and all speak with tongues, and there come in unlearned, or unbelievers will they not say that ye are mad? This is what they were doing - this is the correction - If any man speak in an tongue, let it be by two or at the most by three, and that by course and let one interpret. (back to v5b and 13) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. IOW - if the person speaking in tongues cannot believe that God will give the interpretation to him - he speaks to himself and to God.
[/FONT]
Paul's gist is that if the person speaking in tongues cannot believe to interpret - keep his mouth shut and speak to himself and God. Paul says prophesying is greater than tongues unless interpreted so the church may receive edifying.

Bottom line - How is it then, brethren? when ye come together everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. . . . .

Conclusion: Let all things be done decently and in order.

Sorry but you missed the point of the question. Why would God use tongues in a congregation that speaks all English instead of prophesying in PLAIN ENGLISH being that prophesying is the better way for UNDERSTANDING? Isn't that saying that God is going against His own word that understanding and prophesying in a plain language is the better way instead of tongues which can be problematic if they CAN NOT BE UNDERSTOOD? Doesn't God know there would be no one who could translate in the first place? Why wouldn't He go straight to prophesying in the first place?

jimmydiggs · Nov 7, 2013

Stephen63 said:

Surely you recognize the vast majority of pentecostalism in the states is crazyness and mass heresy (Word of Faith, Christological heresies, denial of the trinity, denial of saving grace, etc)

zone · Nov 7, 2013

Stephen63 said:

the Toronto Blessing is not part of the 2 movements you said were the true movements before the judgment?

can't seem to get much commitment from you, on record, as to what those 2 movements are. unlump them, then. why you don't only you know. are you able to help others take out the trash?

maybe help them know what you say is and is not trash?

The Toronto Blessing seems to keep coming up - no matter where one looks in THE HISTORIES.

it was addressed in this thread as a matter of public record.

zone · Nov 7, 2013

Stephen63 said:

The Toronto Blessing produced "hysteria and uncontrolled behavior which would be socially unacceptable in any other circumstance". - Wade Cox

what are your motives, stephen?

was the Toronto Blessing known to be "hysteria and uncontrolled behavior which would be socially unacceptable in any other circumstance"?
trash? or not?

Stephen63 · Nov 7, 2013

jimmydiggs said:

Yes I do. But that's NOT what this thread is supposed to be about.

peacefulbeliever · Nov 7, 2013

SarahM777 said:

I don't think I missed the point at all. Paul said through the Holy Spirit - Prophecy is greater EXCEPT tongues are interpreted. The person speaking in tongues should interpret - "for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, EXCEPT HE INTERPRET, that the church may receive edifying." That is what the FULL SCRIPTURE says - it didn't end with "greater is he that prophesieth" - PERIOD. Tongues is also used for the edifying of the church when interpreted. That is what scripture says.

Enow · Nov 7, 2013

konroh said:

Cephas is stone: not rock. Rock has always been equated with God or gods so I know Jesus is not giving the name of rock to Peter.

1 Corinthians 10:4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

BibleGateway - Quick search: rock God

List of references of Rock being God.

jimmydiggs · Nov 7, 2013

Stephen63 said:

Maybe you can understand then why consistantly rotten fruit would lead us to believe the tree is rotten too.

The Original Pentecostal Movement

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