Who are the heirs of the promises?

tdrew777 · Nov 18, 2013

Gen 12: 1-3 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Is this promise for physical descendants of Abraham (Jews) only? Is it fulfilled only in the spiritual descendants of Abraham (the church)? Or is there a dual fulfillment that includes both Jews and the Christian church?

Cobus · Nov 18, 2013

It is to this CHURCH, Jew or gentile....
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

And to these people....Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

But then I do not think your Gofly and God's Godly, is the same thing!

Cobus · Nov 18, 2013

Tdrew God commands this... Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Do you think a person that does not believe this can be a child of God? Can I be a child of God without believing this verse? Can I choose what to believe and twist the rest to fit to what I believe? Can I modify the Word of God to suit my sin? Can I not be perfect and still say.... I am the Child of God? I am a beleiver, and I KEEP HIS WORD?

Not the HEARERS OF THE WORD IS HIS CHILDREN THE DOERS ARE... do you think GOD'S CHILDREN DO MATTHEW 5:47? I believe they DO! Why? God make sure they do, by giving them a BORN OF GOD life.... 1 John 3:9.

Hizikyah · Nov 18, 2013

Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though Yahweh's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are Yahweh's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

Psalm 105:6-9, "O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Yaaqob, His chosen ones! He is Yahweh our Father! His judgments are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, the Law He commanded for a thousand generations; Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl for an everlasting covenant."

Galations 3:28,29, "Is there not the Yahdai as well as the Greek; Gentile? Is there not the slave as well as the freeman? Is there not the male and the female? For all of you must be in unity in Yahshua Messiah. And if you are in Messiah, then you are a seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise."

Psalam 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change the Law that has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."

JaumeJ · Nov 18, 2013

For me, this has always been the only covenant, through Abraham, who is the father of all who truly believe. I am pasting below other words on this promise, covenant or brit made by our Father to Abraham. Notice, Abraham prophesies a Lamb from Yahweh, and he is prophesying Yeshua, I believe with my whole heart and soul, yes, mind also. Then notice how it is not a lamb but a ram caught in the thicket which was offered up in the stead of Isaac. Of course a ram is not a lamb so the Lamb was yet to come, and this is so wonderful. I praise our Heavenly Father for the family in His Son, amen.
There is much more blessing in the text not included within, before and after the quotes here.
Gen 22:7

And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
Gen 22:8
And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Gen 22:11
And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

Gen 22:12
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Gen 22:13
And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Gen 22:14
And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

Gen 22:15
And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

Gen 22:16
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

Gen 22:17
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

tdrew777 said:

tdrew777 · Nov 18, 2013

Please do not derail the thread, Cobus. We've dealt with your "perfection" on other threads.

Bookends · Nov 18, 2013

It is the whole church, OT and NT, not only the Israelites who seeked God, but from the very beginning. It's all faithful believers who genuinely seek after God. The OT believers looked forward to this promise, the NT look back to the promise, it is the SEED (Christ) of Abraham in which all Nations are blessed and receive the promises of God.

Romans 4
The Promise Granted Through Faith

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, [SUP]15 [/SUP]because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all [SUP]17 [/SUP](as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; [SUP]18 [/SUP]who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]19 [/SUP]And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. [SUP]20[/SUP]He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, [SUP]24 [/SUP]but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, [SUP]25 [/SUP]who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

p_rehbein · Nov 18, 2013

To me it's pretty clear..........in reading the following Scriptures.........

[h=1]Galatians
3[/h]
1 .) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 .) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 .) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 .) Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 .) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 .) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 .) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 .) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 .) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 .) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 .) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 .) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 .) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 .) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 .) Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 .) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 .) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 .) For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

clarkthompson · Nov 18, 2013

tdrew777 said:

It was for the Jews but thru Christ we share some of this promise. The church has become great thru Jesus and His name has become great and not ours. He will bless the church and advenge the church.

JaumeJ · Nov 18, 2013

Salvation's name is great. Jesus is Salvation. Salvation is mentioned throughout the Old Testament, as so many call it. I am reposting one line of Holy Scripture from an earlier post.

Gen 22:17
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

It is certain you know already Who is that Gate possessed by the descendants of Abraham and who the enemies are. When we enter the gate we become a part of the Israel of Yahweh, God. If people do not realize this, they do not recognize Abraham as our father. Here below is another quote, from Isaiah that substantiates this.

Isa 56:8
The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

This second share of the Word is from Isaiah 56. It speaks of people who join themselves to Israel, how the people of Israel are gathered by Yahweh, and finally how others will be gathered to them also, to Israel that is. Please read the chapter, it is very short.

clarkthompson said:

p_rehbein · Nov 18, 2013

JaumeJ said:

Salvation's name is great. Jesus is Salvation. Salvation is mentioned throughout the Old Testament, as so many call it. I am reposting one line of Holy Scripture from an earlier post.

Gen 22:17
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

It is certain you know already Who is that Gate possessed by the descendants of Abraham and who the enemies are. When we enter the gate we become a part of the Israel of Yahweh, God. If people do not realize this, they do not recognize Abraham as our father. Here below is another quote, from Isaiah that substantiates this.

Isa 56:8
The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

This second share of the Word is from Isaiah 56. It speaks of people who join themselves to Israel, how the people of Israel are gathered by Yahweh, and finally how others will be gathered to them also, to Israel that is. Please read the chapter, it is very short.

People have to understand the Two Covenants to understand who the "heirs" to the promise are........it really helps.

zone · Nov 18, 2013

tdrew777 said:

Gen 12: 1-3 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Is this promise for physical descendants of Abraham (Jews) only? Is it fulfilled only in the spiritual descendants of Abraham (the church)? Or is there a dual fulfillment that includes both Jews and the Christian church?

wonders how many straight answers tdrew will get

p_rehbein · Nov 18, 2013

Not for nothing, but if tdrew can read and understand Scripture, I gave him the "straight" answer "straight" from Scripture.

I think he will understand..........

zone · Nov 19, 2013

tdrew777 said:

Gen 12: 1-3 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Is this promise for physical descendants of Abraham (Jews) only? Is it fulfilled only in the spiritual descendants of Abraham (the church)? Or is there a dual fulfillment that includes both Jews and the Christian church?

bump

eternally-gratefull · Nov 19, 2013

tdrew777 said:

There are two things here

I will make you a great nation. This speaks ONLy of Israel (it does not even include his other children or their children, only one)

In you (your seed) shall all the nation so of the earth be blessed. ithis includes all. Including Isreal and gentile.

p_rehbein · Nov 19, 2013

Concerning the First Covenant...........Jesus fulfilled God's promise to the Nation of Israel...........God did not break His Covenant with the Jews, the Jews broke the Covenant with God.........

Hebrews
8

1 .) Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 .) A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 .) For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 .) For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 .) Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 .) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 .) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 .) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 .) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 .) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 .) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 .) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 .) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

eternally-gratefull · Nov 19, 2013

p_rehbein said:

Concerning the First Covenant...........Jesus fulfilled God's promise to the Nation of Israel...........God did not break His Covenant with the Jews, the Jews broke the Covenant with God.........

Hebrews
8

1 .) Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 .) A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 .) For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 .) For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 .) Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 .) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 .) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 .) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 .) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 .) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 .) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 .) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 .) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

That speaks of the mosaic covenant. which was a dual covenant. Do this, and I will do that, do not do this, and i will punish you for breaking my covenant.

The abrahamic covenant is a one way covenant, i will. and has two parts.

tdrew777 · Nov 19, 2013

clarkthompson said:

What part of this promise do believers "share" and what part belongs to regenerate Jews? What part belongs to unregenerate Jews?

john832 · Nov 19, 2013

tdrew777 said:

The promises (note that it is plural) given to Abraham were two-fold. There was the promise of birthright and the promise of the Sceptre (race and grace)...

Notice that God promised two distinct things...

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Ntional blessings.

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Spiritual blessings. As we continue to read we see these blessings refined. Reaffirmation of the birthright...

Gen 15:17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 15:19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
Gen 15:21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Now here we see the promises made unconditional...

Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Again, birthright and Sceptre.

Now we see the birthright promise separated from the Sceptre promise...

Gen 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
Gen 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
Gen 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
Gen 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
Gen 48:20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

The birthright blessings are now conferred on Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh) while the Sceptre (the promise of the King of Kings and grace) being placed squarely on Judah...

Gen 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
Gen 49:9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

and also...

Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

There are two promises, race and grace, and the promises to Abraham cannot be understood without recognizing this.

tdrew777 · Nov 19, 2013

p_rehbein said:

Go ahead - explain them to me.

Who are the heirs of the promises?

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