The Bible debate

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
HAHAHAHAHA

Let me tell you what is subjective --- the notion that an earlier manuscript must [ automatically ] be a more correct one...

Yes - the general propensity for it should be the case; however, it is only one of several important factors to consider.

:)
No one is saying earlier manuscripts should automatically be given a free pass. However, it obviously would take significant evidence to overturn the testimony of earlier MSS, especially if they are centuries older than the next best thing.

So, given you are so bold in your assertions, and have made them multiple times, what is the evidence that you have that should result in a complete dismissal of the critical source texts?
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
I understand how it works, I just don't use age as my number one criteria. And just because there are MSS that are used now, the entire premise of textual criticism was founded by individuals who clung to certain unical codices. The MSS were added later to confirm the veracity of the texts which were already translated.
They used the uncial codices because they were among the earliest available at the time. As more MSS were dated and catalogued, those also became part of the critical apparatus. And to be fair, the likes of Erasmus were also textual critics - if they weren't, they would have simply kept translating from the Vulgate instead of attempting to discern the original text by using the Greek instead of Latin. The difference between modern textual scholars and the likes of Erasmus is merely that we have more manuscripts available to us, a greater understanding of their relative ages, and a slightly more developed understanding of the languages themselves (although theirs was certainly up to the task).


My criteria of the divinity of Christ being the standard in a manuscript is less scholarly, but is the criteria I prefer.
Again, it's not about being 'scholarly', as if being scholarly is a bad thing. I am not a scholar, but I can appreciate the need to have objective, rather than subjective, criteria when ascertaining what God's word actually says. I am not in a position to arbitrate what are and what are not the words that God causes his prophets and apostles to right based on what I feel they should have written. Even a noble end such as declaring the deity of Christ cannot allow me to pick and choose what the apostles originally wrote - As several KJV advocates have rightly said in this thread, it is in the original autographs that inspiration subsists. God's apostles, moved by the Spirit, are the ones we are to listen to, as God gave them utterance. Therefore, I want to use the criteria that allow me, with the greatest possible accuracy, to discern what they actually wrote, not what I think they should have written.
 
R

Reformedjason

Guest
What is the word in this verse?

Luk_8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
The very word of God, not a translation of that word.
 
P

phil112

Guest
I hope that your not saying there is anything wrong with Riplinger, She has done more study on this issue then you ever will.
I am saying the bible is written for every single man and woman to understand if they study as God wants them to. We do not need someone to tell us what it says, unless we are too lazy to seek for ourselves. Is someone that has read the bible 20 times more authoritative in it than someone who has only read it, say 4 times?
Is someone that has studied it for 30 years more knowledgeable about it than someone who has studied it for only 15 years?
Of course not. Once you understand bible doctrine, the more you study it does not change the meaning.
 
S

ServantStrike

Guest
They used the uncial codices because they were among the earliest available at the time. As more MSS were dated and catalogued, those also became part of the critical apparatus. And to be fair, the likes of Erasmus were also textual critics - if they weren't, they would have simply kept translating from the Vulgate instead of attempting to discern the original text by using the Greek instead of Latin. The difference between modern textual scholars and the likes of Erasmus is merely that we have more manuscripts available to us, a greater understanding of their relative ages, and a slightly more developed understanding of the languages themselves (although theirs was certainly up to the task).




Again, it's not about being 'scholarly', as if being scholarly is a bad thing. I am not a scholar, but I can appreciate the need to have objective, rather than subjective, criteria when ascertaining what God's word actually says. I am not in a position to arbitrate what are and what are not the words that God causes his prophets and apostles to right based on what I feel they should have written. Even a noble end such as declaring the deity of Christ cannot allow me to pick and choose what the apostles originally wrote - As several KJV advocates have rightly said in this thread, it is in the original autographs that inspiration subsists. God's apostles, moved by the Spirit, are the ones we are to listen to, as God gave them utterance. Therefore, I want to use the criteria that allow me, with the greatest possible accuracy, to discern what they actually wrote, not what I think they should have written.
I'm not advocating putting words where there are none, I'm advocating that when a verse can be translated one of two ways, to always go with a nod to Christ.

That's the thing about a translation, the words are subjective. I mean if you went through a sentence with a thesaurus, you could argue those are subjective too.
 
Jan 4, 2014
35
1
0
Here is a prime example of the satanic influence on the modern versions

Rev 22:16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Jesus quite clearly says he is the bright and morning star

Then in Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

We ALL should know who Isaiah 14 is about? My KJV makes this CONFUSION very very clear.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Very clear.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
Here is a prime example of the satanic influence on the modern versions

Rev 22:16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Jesus quite clearly says he is the bright and morning star

Then in Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

We ALL should know who Isaiah 14 is about? My KJV makes this CONFUSION very very clear.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Very clear.
You realise Lucifer is Latin, right? And that it means morning star?
 
E

Eklessia

Guest
Because they are lukewarm, dwelling in the false security of Laodicea, about to be spued out and rejected by Jesus Christ.
 
Jan 4, 2014
35
1
0
You realise Lucifer is Latin, right? And that it means morning star?
Wrong. The term translated "Lucifer" does NOT at all mean "morning star" or "star of the morning." That would be two totally different Hebrew words. The word means "light-bearer." In Greek it's "heosphoros," "light-bearer." In Latin it's translated "Lucifer," light-bearer. Whether you say "heylel," "heosphoros" or "lucifer," the meaning is the same: "light-bearer." But only Lucifer communicates who we are talking about in English.
 
W

wordhelpsme

Guest
So many languages. How are they to understand the KJV being the ultimate Bible as compared to a Bible in their language that has not been through so much scrutiny? Inferior and lacking truth?
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
Wrong. The term translated "Lucifer" does NOT at all mean "morning star" or "star of the morning." That would be two totally different Hebrew words. The word means "light-bearer." In Greek it's "heosphoros," "light-bearer." In Latin it's translated "Lucifer," light-bearer. Whether you say "heylel," "heosphoros" or "lucifer," the meaning is the same: "light-bearer." But only Lucifer communicates who we are talking about in English.
Ok, this could get pretty dense if you want to go deep into it. I'm aware of trying to not derail the thread on what is a minor issue, so we can maybe take the discussion elsewhere if it goes to long. But I want to address this.

I'll respond first of all by saying two things. 1. I'll show you why you're wrong, or at the very least too simplistic, in your reading of the relationship of lucifer, heosphoros, etc. 2. I'll argue as to why it actually doesn't matter all that much anyway.

So first of all, the word study. Lucifer itself, if you break it down into its component words, means as you say, something along the light of light bringer. However, this in itself does not prove anything. This is the etymological fallacy. The word 'decimate', for instance, comes originally from a word meaning to take a tenth of something. It no longer carries that meaning, and the components of the word are semantically redundant. Equally, the word 'butterfly' tells you almost nothing about the referent, and what a butterfly actually is. It does indeed fly, but has very little to do with butter.

The word Lucifer is a more innocent example, because it has a closer association etymologically speaking, but it's easily proven that the word initially was used to refer to a stellar body. See Cicero here. Cicero, being a contemporary of Jesus, is in a fantastic position to tell us the use of the Latin was at that time, and is also of help in deciding the use of the Latin at a time vaguely contemporary to Jerome and the Latin Vulgate (from which the KJV derives it's use of the word Lucifer in its translation). Cicero, in the link I provided, clearly demonstrates three key things:

1. Venus, or Veneris, is clearly a stellar body.
2. The Greek for Venus when it precedes the sun (i.e. in the morning) is phosphorus or Φωσφόρος (which, incidentally, is the word used in 2 Peter 1:19)
3. The Latin term for Venus in this mode is Lucifer

But it doesn't stop there. Another Greek term for Venus also appears to have been Ἑωσφόρος, precisely the word used in the Septuagint in Isaiah 14:12.

So, in this phase, we can start to piece some things together. I'll itemise them again:

1. The Greek Ἑωσφόρος was certainly used for a stellar object within two centuries of the Septuagint being written.
2. Regardless of whether Ἑωσφόρος was used in that way around 2nd century BC, it would certainly have been read with that meaning by the time of Jesus.
3. Ἑωσφόρος (the term used in LXX Isaiah 14) and Φωσφόρος (the term used in 2 Peter 1), are virtually interchangeable in the Greek literature. They mean slightly different things semantically, but they both refer to the same thing
3. The word Lucifer was used as the Latin term for the morning star before the Latin Vulgate, and most likely it retained that connotation
4. Therefore, the first appearance of Lucifer in a Bible translation, at the hands of Jerome, would have been done almost certainly with a stellar object or 'star' as the referent.

So, regardless of whether you use the Latin or the Greek, it seems clear that the most logical referent for all these terms was to something that would be understood as a morning star, and that this would have occurred in such a way that the image used to describe Satan/the Babylonian King in Isaiah 14 is much the same as that used by Peter in 2 Peter. And that's BEFORE we even look at the Hebrew.

Now, to my second point - I don't think ANY of this actually matters. Here's why.

The big problem with whoever is being described in Isaiah 14 is that they are attempting to be God. They are cast down because of their arrogance and greed. What better way to describe this then by describing them in similar terms to how God is described? The morning star motif is deliberate, I think, in the same way that Satan masquerading as an angel of light is deliberate. Satan is also described in Revelation as a lion in 1 Peter 5, while Jesus is referred to as a Lion in Revelation 5. Do we have a problem with this? No, and rightly so - the contexts are completely different, and the images are connoting different things.

Similarly, the difference between Jesus as the character of ISaiah 14 - Jesus is the true Morning Star, who was not thrown to earth, but willingly gave up his place on the throne to obey his Father's will. Subsequently, he was exalted and given all authority, approaching the throne as the Son of Man, as the true morning star. He has shown this through his work, and the Spirit and the Bride say come. In Isaiah 14, the character is shown to be an utter pretender, being cast down from on high for getting too uppity in his position.

Hence why it only matters if you read those verses in isolation. If you read all of God's counsel, you could not possibly confuse the one who is spoken of in Isaiah 14 for the true Morning Star.
 
R

Reformedjason

Guest
Wrong. The term translated "Lucifer" does NOT at all mean "morning star" or "star of the morning." That would be two totally different Hebrew words. The word means "light-bearer." In Greek it's "heosphoros," "light-bearer." In Latin it's translated "Lucifer," light-bearer. Whether you say "heylel," "heosphoros" or "lucifer," the meaning is the same: "light-bearer." But only Lucifer communicates who we are talking about in English.
You are the wrong one.
 
R

Reformedjason

Guest
Jason, you didn't answer. Yes or no?
It is the translation of the word of God. Gods words are inspired. Men translate those words. We then have a translstion of Gods word.
 
P

phil112

Guest
It is the translation of the word of God. Gods words are inspired. Men translate those words. We then have a translstion of Gods word.
Well that is a whole bunch of nonsense. I bet you are good at dodgeball, huh?
It is God's word, in whatever language it is spoken in. You know it and you know you are wrong.
 
R

Reformedjason

Guest
please explain
Lucifer is taken from the latin vulgate and the actual hebrew word means morning star. I listenen to a translstor talk about this. In the kjv they took the latin
 
R

Reformedjason

Guest
Well that is a whole bunch of nonsense. I bet you are good at dodgeball, huh?
It is God's word, in whatever language it is spoken in. You know it and you know you are wrong.
So the translstors for sure got it right? Are you a greek or hebrew scholar? I bet not , you don't know. You are taking it in faith. Faith in translators. That is fine. Do what you want. I see it differently. .I will not be king james only because I have come to my conclusions. You have a different conclusion. That is ok. We don't have to agree. God bless. I don't want to argue any more