The Letter to the Romans...

[BradC]

Rom 11:5,6 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Are we to conclude that the remnant is not saved according to the election of grace, when it is no more of works?

The work of faith is through the conviction of the Holy Spirit when the gospel is heard. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, this this the operation of faith that the grace of God came through to justify and save us. The work if faith referred to in (1&2 Thes 1) is the works that followed salvation as believers took the word and mixed faith with it to be obedient to the call of God and to walk by faith being already justified. This work of faith is not to justify the believer's standing with God but rather to reveal the grace of God to others who are without hope in this present evil world.

 

[homwardbound]

That is just what we are trying to get you to understand. ALL of God. Not only any part of God. Not shutting yourself away because you become enamored over one aspect you deny another. You say you are learning through the Holy Spirit. Would the Holy Spirit not accept every verse of the Lord? The Holy Spirit knows grace. The Holy Spirit knows every tiny piece of the law. The Holy Spirit leads to BOTH.

There is a connection between us and everything we do, a connection to the spirit of God.

Rom_13:12 The night is nearly over, and the daylight is near, so let us discard the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
Rom_2:6 He will repay each one according to his works:

Just as we know we are saved by faith, we must know the connection between what we think, what we do, how we behave and the spirit of the Lord. If knowing of works not to save is necessary, then it is also true that knowing of our need to work is just as necessary.

Absolutely and Paul said this:
Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

So I am careful to:
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh

 

[homwardbound]

By faith we receive the perfect righteousness of God in Christ; By God's work and our work, we become the righteousness of God ,but only perfected at death. If others don't see something of God character in our lives, we are not saved. We must show our good works before others to glorify God. And when we publicly sin we must publicly confess our sin. We will sin, that is a given; But we have a mediator. Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Love to all, Hoffco ps. to Elin, I have been know to be wrong, LOL. Love Ya all

Yes agreed, and I write:
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

 

[homwardbound]

Rom 11:5,6 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Are we to conclude that the remnant is not saved according to the election of grace, when it is no more of works?

The work of faith is through the conviction of the Holy Spirit when the gospel is heard. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, this this the operation of faith that the grace of God came through to justify and save us. The work if faith referred to in (1&2 Thes 1) is the works that followed salvation as believers took the word and mixed faith with it to be obedient to the call of God and to walk by faith being already justified. This work of faith is not to justify the believer's standing with God but rather to reveal the grace of God to others who are without hope in this present evil world.

Amen a thousand times over again Brother

 

[Elin]

Paul was not excluding all works from salvation,

That is exactly what Paul was doing.

1) Salvation is simply saved from the wrath of God on our sin at the final judgment (Ro 5:9)
by forgiveness of sin (Lk 1:77), removal of its guilt (justification).

We are saved from the wrath of God on our sin (Ro 5:9) by forgiveness of our sin (Lk 1:77)
through faith in Jesus Christ, and nothing else (Eph 2:8-9).

he was EXCLUDING works of merit while INCLUDING obedient works.

Distinction without a difference.

If obedient works save, then they are meritorious works.
2) The two works referred to in the NT are:
a) the useless (supposedly "meritorious") works toward salvation, and
b) the obedience resulting from/caused by saving faith, which is a gift (Php 1:29; 1Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27;
Ro 12:3).

Neither of these save us from the wrath of God on our sin at the final judgment.
The obedience resulting from faith does not save us, for we are already saved by the faith which
then produces the obedience.

Therefore salvation is not by grace alone. God's grace is conditional upon man's obedience.

That is contra-apostolic NT teaching.

Salvation from God's wrath on our sin (Ro 5:9) through forgiveness of our sin (Lk 1:77)
is by faith alone (Eph 2:8-9).
This faith which saves then obeys.

But the obedience which comes after faith does not save us, for we are already saved from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) through faith alone (Eph 2:8-9).

3) "For it is by grace (not by obedience) you have been saved, through faith (not through obedience),
--and this (salvation) not from yourselves (not because of your obedience), it is the gift of God--
not by works, so that no man can boast. For we are God's workmanship (we are the clay in which
the potter alone forms the image)." (Eph 2:8-10)

If my obedience is the reason God saves me, then I can boast that I did what my own brother did not do,
I obeyed, and he did not.
However, NT apostolic teaching is that it is all the gift of God so that I cannot boast,
for there is not one thing in all of it that I can boast about.
God gets all the glory, I get none based on my part, for I had no part.

This obedience by the power of the Holy Spirit, which is the result of the gift of faith,
manifests that our faith is true, and is also the process in which we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
For true faith obeys.

All of God's grace will never save a disobedient person. Eph 2:8 salvation is by grace through faith,

All the saved are saved out of disobedience and into obedience.

4) Since the fall of Adam, there have been only two groups of people in God's world.
a) the born again (Jn 3:3) into eternal life by the Holy Spirit through faith (the regenerate, or spiritual man),
b) and those who are not (the unregenerate, or natural man).

Apostolic teaching in Ro 8:7-8 reveals that the unregenerate/natural man's mind is
hostile to God (rebellious),
does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
cannot please God (spiritually powerless).

That is the position of everyone before they are born again (Jn 3:3) by the power of the Holy Spirit through faith.
No matter how religious one is, no matter how many works of righteousness one does,
if one is not born again, he cannot even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3), much less enter it (Jn 3:5).
The Pharisees were very religious and did many works of righteousness.
And yet they were God's enemies.

So according to apostolic teaching, there is no obedience pleasing to God by those who are not born again,
and which obedience is the reason God saves them.
All are saved out of disobedience into obedience.

Selective quoting.

Give the whole passage, Eph 2:8-9, which contradicts your statement, and teaches that works
are not involved in salvation.

Faith is a work, 1 Thess 1:3,

5) That's not what 1Th 1:3 states: "your work produced by faith"

Works are the result of faith, not the cause of faith.

and this work of faith with God's grace is what saves.

Not according to the apostolic teaching of the NT.

I suspect we have different meanings for the gospel terms we're using,
so I explained the meaning I am using in 1) - 5), the blue text in my former post above,
so we can be on the same page.

The works of verse 4 Paul speaks of are works of merit

What v. 4?

and NOT all works. Belief is a work and is not excluded. In Rom 6:16-18 Paul speaks of "obedience unto righteousness", and how the Romans had "obeyed from the heart" then they were "freed from sin," jusitifed

Okay. . .another explanation of a gospel term we are using.

6) Justification is the declaration of right standing/righteousness, guiltlessness before God,
because of the forgiveness of sin
by faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25) which paid the penalty for one's sin.

It does not free one from sinfulness, it simply frees one from guilt and God's wrath on it at the final judgment.

The obedience of faith is the sanctification process by the power of the Holy Spirit which
grows one in holiness/righteousness.

Now, to your point.

Ro 6:16-18 is not referring to justification.

Nor is it a causal linkage of events.
Paul is simply addressing the issue raised by some that justification by faith alone would remove all moral restraint.
He is showing that a Christian does not throw morality to the winds but, on the contrary, he exchanges sin for
righteousness as his new master.
The "obedience which leads to righteousness" is the obedience produced by the gift of faith and which sanctifies.

Paul does not contradict himself, it is the faith only advocates that have it all wrong. No verse says obedient works merit salvation. Read Rom 10:3 very carefully and see how Paul says the Jews were going about establishing thier own righteousness (works of merit) and had not submitted (obeyed) the righteousnes of God. This one verses speaks of two DIFFERENT types of works: 1) works or merit 2) obeidence to God's commands and how that works of merit do NOT save while obeying God's righteous commands DOES save.

Ro 10:3 - "Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought

to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness."

Note:
a) the text states nothing about "obeying God's righteous commands,"
b) in contrast to man-made righteousness by obedience,
there is a righteousness from God, which has nothing to do with what man does.

Then what does the apostle mean by "God's righteousness" if not "obedience to God's righteous commands"?
Well, let's have a look at what else the apostle says about it.

Ro 1:17 - In the gospel is revealed a righteousness (right standing before God, guiltlessness)
that is by faith, from first to last, (man's obedience plays absolutely no part in it), just as it is written,
'The righteous will live by faith.' "

Ro 3:21-24 - "But now a righteousness apart from law (works of obedience), has been made known,
to which the law and prophets testify.
This righteousness from God (not from our obedience) comes through faith in Jesus Christ
to all who believe. . .and are justified freely (not on the merit of any obedience) by his grace through
the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Ro 5:17 - For if, by the trespass of one man, death reigned through the one man, how much more
will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life
through the one man, Jesus Christ."

The righteousness of/from God is the declaration of guiltlessness, it is not a change of character.
The change of character follows comes in the obedience of faith, which sanctifies.

(con't in the following)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(con't from above)

Not a single verse in the NT says salvation is by grace alone or salvation is by faith alone.

See 3) in my first, quoted post, two above, blue text, on Eph 2:8-10:

Again, look at Rom 6:17-18 at the order of events:

1) they were servants of sin
2) they then obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) THEN they wre made freed fromsin (justified)

Note how #2 obedience comes BEFORE 3) being made justified.

See 6) above in my first, quoted post, two above, blue text, on Ro 10:

Eph 2:9 "not of works" refers to works of merit not a faithful obedience

quote]
Would you please explain the difference between them.

Aain, Jn 6:27-29 belief is a wrok

I think perhaps you have missed the context of what Jesus was saying.

To the Jews who believed they were made righteous by their works,
and who framed their question to Jesus in the only terms they knew--"works God requires,"
Jesus answered in the terms they knew, "the work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Note, Jesus presented no other "work" required of them by God.
Jesus is saying that God requires only faith, not obedience, to receive eternal life.

and not a work Paul was excluding in Eph 2:9. We are told in verse 8 the Ephesians were saved through faith.

Eph 2:8------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21----baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be sved, and the bible does not contradict itslef, the logical implication is that a sving faith includes the workof submitting to water baptism.

I'm surprised to learn you aren't aware that the sacramental symbol is sometimes used to refer to the reality itself.
Baptism is sometimes used to refer to Christ's death and resurrection, as in Ro 6:3-4:

"Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."

Peter is not saying that the sacrament of Baptism saves, he is saying that what Baptism symbolizes--Christ's death and resurrection--saves.

Apostolic teaching does not present submitting to water baptism as a work of saving faith.

Just these two verse obliterate the man-made teaching of faith only. No verse anywhere tells us the Ephesians were saved by faith alone.

See 3) in my first, quoted post, two above, blue text, on Eph 2:8-10.

Some 30 or so years later the church at Ephesus had fallen and were told by CHrist "I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." They were fallen, left their first love for having STOPPED doing those first WORKS. They were commanded to "repent", which is a work also.[/quote]
Yes, those are the works of obedience produced by faith.

They had become disobedient to the NT commands, for which they were told to repent.

Works of faith are works due to faith, and they do not save,
for works of faith don't occur until one comes to the faith which saves,
so they are already saved when they begin the works of faith.

If one ceases to do the works of faith, it is because one's faith was counterfeit to begin with;
i.e., they were not saved.

 

[SeaBass]

If God's grace to Abraham was by Abraham's works then grace, being a gift is no longer a gift and one would have reason to boast but not before God
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

In Rom 4:2 "works" refer to works of merit and not an obedient faith.

Abraham was one who sinned and did not merit his salvation, but he had an obedient faith, Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."

Abrahams' obedience in obeying by leaving his house, land and kinsmen (or offering Isaac) earned him nothing.

 

[SeaBass]

Rom 11:5,6 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Are we to conclude that the remnant is not saved according to the election of grace, when it is no more of works?

The work of faith is through the conviction of the Holy Spirit when the gospel is heard. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, this this the operation of faith that the grace of God came through to justify and save us. The work if faith referred to in (1&2 Thes 1) is the works that followed salvation as believers took the word and mixed faith with it to be obedient to the call of God and to walk by faith being already justified. This work of faith is not to justify the believer's standing with God but rather to reveal the grace of God to others who are without hope in this present evil world.

The context of Romans 11:1-6. Paul is saying God has NOT cast away fleshly Israel, but fleshly Israel can obey the gospel and become Christians, as Paul did, and become a spiritual Jew who the true child of God. In verse 4 Paul uses an event in the past that showed who God's people was at that time under the OT..."I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal" Those that OBEYED God by not bowing to Baal was God's people THEN. Yet in verse 5 Paul says "at this present time" God's chosen are those "remnant according to the election of grace" refers to that remnant of Jews that obeyed the gospel in Acts 2:38ff. So back THEN God's people were the ones that obeyed by not bowing to Baal. NOW, at this present time, God's people are those according to the election of grace, ie, those that obey the gospel of Christ.

So "works" in verse 6 refers to works of merit, not obedience to God. Paul's point in Romans is God did not base His choices/promises upon works of merit or fleshly descent. In Rom 2:45 Paul talks about the ned to repent, Rom 10:9,10 the need to obey be believing and confessing Christ and Rom 6 the need to be baptized.

 

[SeaBass]

Ro 10:3 - "Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought

to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness."

Note:
a) the text states nothing about "obeying God's righteous commands,"
b) in contrast to man-made righteousness by obedience,
there is a righteousness from God, which has nothing to do with what man does.

Then what does the apostle mean by "God's righteousness" if not "obedience to God's righteous commands"?
Well, let's have a look at what else the apostle says about it.

Ro 1:17 - In the gospel is revealed a righteousness (right standing before God, guiltlessness)
that is by faith, from first to last, (man's obedience plays absolutely no part in it), just as it is written,
'The righteous will live by faith.' "

Ro 3:21-24 - "But now a righteousness apart from law (works of obedience), has been made known,
to which the law and prophets testify.
This righteousness from God (not from our obedience) comes through faith in Jesus Christ
to all who believe. . .and are justified freely (not on the merit of any obedience) by his grace through
the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Ro 5:17 - For if, by the trespass of one man, death reigned through the one man, how much more
will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life
through the one man, Jesus Christ."

The righteousness of/from God is the declaration of guiltlessness, it is not a change of character.
The change of character follows comes in the obedience of faith, which sanctifies.

I do not have time to deal with your entire post but Iwill deal with these two issues now.


First, there is a clear contrast Paul makes betweenworks of merit and obedience in Rom 10:3. Faith onlyadvocates ignore it for obvioous reasons.

Paul said the Jews were lost for they were going about establishing their OWN rightoeuness, ie, works of merit and they were not doing GOD'S righteousness..they have not submitted unto the righteousness of God.

We know from veres like Psa 119:172 that "for all thy commandments are righteousness" So God's righteousness is the same as His commandments. So the Jews were lost for they would not submit/obey the righteousness (commandments) of God. They would not obey by belieivng and confessing, Rom 10:9,10 they refues to "obey the gospel", verse 16

I'm surprised to learn you aren't aware that the sacramental symbol is sometimes used to refer to the reality itself.
Baptism is sometimes used to refer to Christ's death and resurrection, as in Ro 6:3-4:

"Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."

Peter is not saying that the sacrament of Baptism saves, he is saying that what Baptism symbolizes--Christ's death and resurrection--saves. Rom 6 is also a reference to that same ONE BAPTISM [EPh 4:5] water baptism. In ROm 6:17 that "form of doctrine' the the Roamsn obeyed the freed them from (salvation) is water baptism of verse 3-7.


Apostolic teaching does not present submitting to water baptism as a work of saving faith.

In 1 Pet 3:21 Peter is plainly talking about water baptism that saves, the same water baptism that saves (remits sins) that he COMMANDED in Acts 2:38. Peter said BAPTISM SAVES Peter did not mention the word sacrament.

In Rom 6:7 one must be "DEAD" to be freed from sins, so for the Romans to be freed from sin in v17 they MUST be dead. And it is water baptism of verses 3-6 where one is buried into Christ's death then raised up to walk in newness of life. One is BURIED into a watery grave then raised up from that watery grave.

 

[Elin]

I do not have time to deal with your entire post but Iwill deal with these two issues now.

I'm sorry to hear that, because they refute all that you say about salvation by obedience.

First, there is a clear contrast Paul makes betweenworks of merit and obedience in Rom 10:3. Faith onlyadvocates ignore it for obvioous reasons.

I do not see it, and have asked you to explain the difference between them to me.

Paul said the Jews were lost for they were going about establishing their OWN rightoeuness, ie, works of merit and they were not doing GOD'S righteousness..they have not submitted unto the righteousness of God.

We know from veres like Psa 119:172 that "

for all thy commandments are righteousness" So God's righteousness is the same as His commandments. So the Jews were lost for they would not submit/obey the righteousness (commandments) of God.

Romans is not in agreement with your notion of God's righteousness.

Ro 1:17 - In the gospel is revealed a righteousness (right standing before God, guiltlessness)
that is by faith, from first to last, (man's obedience plays absolutely no part in it), just as it is written,
'The righteous will live by faith.' "

Ro 3:21-24 - "But now a righteousness apart from law (works of obedience), has been made known,
to which the law and prophets testify.
This righteousness from God (not from our obedience) comes through faith in Jesus Christ
to all who believe. . .and are justified freely (not on the merit of any obedience) by his grace through
the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Ro 5:17 - For if, by the trespass of one man, death reigned through the one man, how much more
will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life
through the one man, Jesus Christ."

In Romans above, the righteousness of/from God, or God's righteousness, does not refer
to God's commandments, but is a declaration of guiltlessness, or justification (position of right
standing, guiltlessness, before God) because of faith in Jesus Christ which forgives sin (Lk 1:77),
thereby removing God's wrath on one at the final judgment.

In Romans, the righteousness from God to which the Jews did not submit, was the righteousness by faith alone,
without any works involved (Ro 9:30-32).

They would not obey by belieivng and confessing, Rom 10:9,10 they refues to "obey the gospel", verse 16

So their disobedience which condemned them was simply unbelief.
Apart from belief, they were condemned, and with belief they were saved.
That translates into belief being the only thing that saves, and unbelief being the only thing that condemns.

"He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy." (Tit 3:5)

In 1 Pet 3:21 Peter is plainly talking about water baptism that saves, the same water baptism that saves (remits sins) that he COMMANDED in Acts 2:38. Peter said BAPTISM SAVES Peter did not mention the word sacrament.

You set the Scriptures against themselves; e.g., Ro 1:17, Ro 3:21-24, Ro 5:17 above.

Until you understand the Scriptures in agreement with themselves, you necessarily misunderstand them.

 

[SeaBass]

I'm sorry to hear that, because they refute all that you say about salvation by obedience.


I do not see it, and have asked you to explain the difference between them to me.

Romans is not in agreement with your notion of God's righteousness.

Ro 1:17 - In the gospel is revealed a righteousness (right standing before God, guiltlessness)
that is by faith, from first to last, (man's obedience plays absolutely no part in it), just as it is written,
'The righteous will live by faith.' "

Ro 3:21-24 - "But now a righteousness apart from law (works of obedience), has been made known,
to which the law and prophets testify.
This righteousness from God (not from our obedience) comes through faith in Jesus Christ
to all who believe. . .and are justified freely (not on the merit of any obedience) by his grace through
the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Ro 5:17 - For if, by the trespass of one man, death reigned through the one man, how much more
will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life
through the one man, Jesus Christ."

In Romans above, the righteousness of/from God, or God's righteousness, does not refer
to God's commandments, but is a declaration of guiltlessness, or justification (position of right
standing, guiltlessness, before God) because of faith in Jesus Christ which forgives sin (Lk 1:77),
thereby removing God's wrath on one at the final judgment.

In Romans, the righteousness from God to which the Jews did not submit, was the righteousness by faith alone,
without any works involved (Ro 9:30-32).



So their disobedience which condemned them was simply unbelief.
Apart from belief, they were condemned, and with belief they were saved.
That translates into belief being the only thing that saves, and unbelief being the only thing that condemns.

"He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy." (Tit 3:5)


You set the Scriptures against themselves; e.g., Ro 1:17, Ro 3:21-24, Ro 5:17 above.

Until you understand the Scriptures in agreement with themselves, you necessarily misunderstand them.

Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

No where in the book of Romans does it disgree that the righteousness of God is the same as God's commandments. In the onctext of Rom 10_1-3 Paul lamenst over the fact his brothers in the flesh were lost. Verse 3 tells us WHY they were lost.."they went about establishing their own righteousness". The Jews were lost for they wre doing works of merit, they thought if they keep the OT law perfectly they could marit salvation and in some cases they replaced God's law with their own traditions "estavbishs their own rightoeusness) and think they could be saved by keeping perfectly their own traditions.

Paul tells us then wht the Jews would NOT do they kept them from being saved, they have "not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God"

Submit carries the ide of obeying. The righteousnes of God as I pointed out from Psa 119:172 refers to God's commandments. The Jews were lost for they would not obey God's command to believe and confess with the mouth, they would "have not all obeyed the gospel" Rom 10:16.

Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

Working righteousness here means obeying God's will, God's commands.

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abrahams' obedient faith was counted for righteousness.

ROm 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

One OBEYS UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS, obeying God's commands is why one is seen as righteous by God. In this verse Paul says you obey either one of two masters. You either obey (1) sin unto death or you obey (2) obedience unto righteousness.

I obey #2. Faith only theology eliminates option #2 for those that go by it leaving them with a very bad master to serve.

Rom 6:17,18 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

They were servants of sin for they served sin. Yet they obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine then they were free from sin becoming servants of righteousness. How did they become servants of righteousness? By obeying from the hear that form of doctrine, by obeying God's righteous will.

Rom 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness"

Man cannot be righteous if he doe not believe from the heart.

1 Tim 6:11 (2 Tim 2:22) "But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

What does it mean to "follow after righteousness"? It means to obey God's commands, obey God's will.

1 Tim 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

What does it mean to be "instructed in righteouness"? It means to learnand know God's commands, know God's will.

1 Jn 3:7 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

One cannot be righteous without DOING righteousness.



As far as te verses you posted, Rom 1:16,17 man can be rightous WITHOUT believing the gospel of Christ?

Rom 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:"

Again, man's obedience in believing has no part inman being righteous?


Rom 5:17 I did not say "righeousness" in every place in the bible refers to God's commands. Sometimes righteousness is used to describe God's nature.


1 Pet 3:21 Peter says baptism saves, that settles that issue. Since baptism saves and faith saves, then logically faith must include baptism else you are creating contradictions or trying to create more than one way to be saved.

 

[Hoffco]

According to the Bible we are saved by Grace,by faith, By works, by baptism, by visiting the elderly. by feeding the poor. etc, etc. period..... Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

No where in the book of Romans does it disgree that the righteousness of God is the same as God's commandments.

You have not answered my question presented to you twice now: please explain the difference between works of merit and works of obedience, because you don't know the answer.
You have addressed none of the Scripture presented to you, only repeating from your apologetic manual what has already been addressed by me, because you don't know the Scriptures.
You don't have a clue about the Biblical meaning of the gospel.

These are the Scriptures
which refute your statements and with which you have not dealt, because you cannot.

Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by grace (not by obedience) you have been saved, through faith (not through obedience),
--and this (salvation) not from yourselves (not because of your obedience), it is the gift of God--
not by works, so that no man can boast. For we are God's workmanship (we are the clay in which
the potter alone forms the image)." (Eph 2:8-10)

If my obedience is the reason God saves me, then I can boast that I did what my own brother did not do,
I obeyed, and he did not.
However, NT apostolic teaching is that it is all the gift of God so that I cannot boast,
for there is not one thing in all of it that I can boast about.
God gets all the glory, I get none based on my part, for I had no part.

Ro 1:17 - "In the gospel is revealed a righteousness (legal positional right standing before God, guiltlessness)
that is by faith, from first to last, (man's obedience plays absolutely no part in it), just as it is written,
'The righteous will live by faith.' "

Ro 3:21-24 - "But now a righteousness apart from law (works of obedience), has been made known,
to which the law and prophets testify.
This righteousness from God (not from our obedience) comes through faith in Jesus Christ
to all who believe. . .and are justified freely (not on the merit of any obedience) by his grace through
the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Ro 5:17 - "For if, by the trespass of one man, death reigned through the one man, how much more
will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life
through the one man, Jesus Christ."

The righteousness of/from God, or justification, is the legal declaration of guiltlessness, it is not a change of character.
The change of character follows in the obedience of faith, which sanctifies.

Ro 6:16-18 - "Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey them, you are slaves to the one you obey- -whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience which leads to righteousness.
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness"

This (obedience) is not referring to justification; i.e., legal declaration of acquittal from guilt.

Nor is it a causal linkage of events from
Paul is simply addressing the issue raised by some that justification by faith alone would remove all moral restraint.
He is showing that a Christian does not throw morality to the winds but, on the contrary, he exchanges sin for righteousness as his new master.
The "obedience which leads to righteousness" is the obedience produced by the gift of faith and which sanctifies.

Ro 9:30-31 - "What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have
obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not
attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works."

Ro 11:5-6 - At the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace (mercy) would no longer be grace."

And these are the Biblical terms
your apologetic manual misconstrues in support of your false gospel:

1) Salvation - is simply saved from the wrath of God on our sin at the final judgment (Ro 5:9)
by forgiveness of sin (Lk 1:77), which removes its guilt, which is justification.

2) Righteousness - Paul uses "righteousness" in two ways:
a) justification - legal declaration of acquittal of guilt, of right standing before God, because of forgiveness of sin, which saves (Lk 1:77) from God's wrath (Ro 5:9), through faith in his atoning sacrifice (Ro 3;25) which paid the penalty for sin; e.g., Ro 1:17, 3:21-24, 5:17, 9:30-31, 11:5-6.
It is not a change of character, only a positional legal standing of guiltlessness before God.
b) sanctification - the process of holiness, by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the obedience produced by faith, which is a change of character; e.g., Ro 6:16-18.

3) Works - The two works referred to in the NT are:
a) the useless (supposedly "meritorious") works toward salvation, and
b) the obedience resulting from/caused by saving faith, which is a gift (Php 1:29; 1Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27;
Ro 12:3).

Neither of these save us from the wrath of God on our sin at the final judgment.
The obedience resulting from faith does not save us, for we are already saved by the faith which
then produces the obedience.

4) Faith Alone - "For it is by grace (not by obedience) you have been saved, through faith (not through obedience),
--and this (salvation) not from yourselves(not because of your obedience), it is the gift of God--
not by works, so that no man can boast. For we are God's workmanship (we are the clay in which
the potter alone forms the image)." (Eph 2:8-10)

If my obedience is the reason God saves me, then I can boast that I did what my own brother did not do, I obeyed, and he did not.
However, NT apostolic teaching is that it is all the gift of God so that I cannot boast,
for there is not one thing in all of it that I can boast about.
God gets all the glory, I get none based on my part, for I had no part.

5) Natural Man and Spiritual Man - Since the fall of Adam, there have been only two groups of people in God's world.
a) the born again (Jn 3:3) into eternal life by the Holy Spirit through faith (the regenerate, or spiritual man),
b) and those who are not (the unregenerate, or natural man).

Apostolic teaching in Ro 8:7-8 reveals that the unregenerate/natural man's mind is
hostile to God (rebellious),
does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
cannot please God (spiritually powerless).

That is the position of everyone before they are born again (Jn 3:3) by the power of the Holy Spirit through faith.
No matter how religious one is, no matter how many works of righteousness one does,
if one is not born again, he cannot even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3), much less enter it (Jn 3:5).
The Pharisees were very religious and did many works of righteousness.
And yet they were God's enemies.

So according to apostolic teaching, there is no obedience pleasing to God by those who are not born again,
and which obedience is the reason God saves them.
All are saved out of disobedience into obedience.

6) Work of faith - 1Th 1:3 states: "your work produced by faith"

Works are the result of faith, which is a gift (Ac 18:23; Php 1:29; 1Pe 1:1), not the cause of faith.
The gift of faith first, then obedience.

Until you deal with these Scriptures and come into a Biblical understanding of these terms,
you are preaching an anti-gospel which Paul anathematizes (Gal 1:7-9), and which does not save.

That is a serious miscalculation.

Don't bother us with your false gospel until you have addressed what is presented above.

 

[Hoffco]

Elin, don't bother us with you twisted, contradictory statements as in the confusion, double talk, in the above post, You keep saying our obedience by faith produces works of faith which please God and shows us righteous, good, and then you say again, salvation in by faith alone, no works. you talk ,double talk. you are confused, and don't see it. you are blind to your own confusion. WHY, because you don't start with GRACE which produces Faith and Works, which are equally needed for salvation, both are gifts of grace. Your can not see the dual sides of salvation, the dual purpose in salvation is to give us Jesus' righteousness by grace and faith and our own personal righteousness produced in us by grace thru our faith and good works, in obeying God's laws. sanctification begins in ch. 1 of romans. "called to be saints, holy calling. obedience of faith." then justification begins in rom.3:24 with Grace and faith; but, justification by works began in Rom. 2:13 with the saved Gentiles., and sanctification con'ts with 5:19- ch.8. AND, election is by grace alone ,no works, rom.11, ; BUT salvation applied, is by Grace thru faith and works. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Elin, don't bother us with you twisted, contradictory statements as in the confusion, double talk, in the above post, You keep saying our obedience by faith produces works of faith which please God and shows us righteous, good, and then you say again, salvation in by faith alone, no works. you talk ,double talk. you are confused, and don't see it. you are blind to your own confusion. WHY, because you don't start with GRACE which produces Faith and Works, which are equally needed for salvation, both are gifts of grace. Your can not see the dual sides of salvation, the dual purpose in salvation is to give us Jesus' righteousness by grace and faith and our own personal righteousness produced in us by grace thru our faith and good works, in obeying God's laws. sanctification begins in ch. 1 of romans. "called to be saints, holy calling. obedience of faith." then justification begins in rom.3:24 with Grace and faith; but, justification by works began in Rom. 2:13 with the saved Gentiles., and sanctification con'ts with 5:19- ch.8. AND, election is by grace alone ,no works, rom.11, ; BUT salvation applied, is by Grace thru faith and works.

Assertion without demonstration is without merit.

Address the Scriptures presented.

You sound an uncertain (inconsistent) trumpet call.

 

[Hoffco]

2Tim.4:7-8 "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." 1Tim. 4:16 "Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you". Elin, this should be the best demonstration a man should need. God bless, Love to all, Hoffco Doug

 

[Elin]

2Tim.4:7-8 "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." 1Tim. 4:16 "Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you". Elin, this should be the best demonstration a man should need. God bless,

Doesn't apply to your assertion.

You sound an unclear trumpet call.

 

[RedTent]

In Rom 4:2 "works" refer to works of merit and not an obedient faith.

Abraham was one who sinned and did not merit his salvation, but he had an obedient faith, Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."

Abrahams' obedience in obeying by leaving his house, land and kinsmen (or offering Isaac) earned him nothing.

The obedience itself did not do the earning, but the obedience showed his faith and that DID do the earning. If he didn't have faith enough to obey, as you are teaching, the faith wouldn't have been sufficient.

Going into that works in themselves do not earn our merit, that is another subject altogether, and no place in explaining works as the result of faith.

 

[Hoffco]

It gets sickening, seeing so much badmouthing God! As if God is soooo self centered, or cruel, as not to reward His workers. Heb. 6:10 "For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown to His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope to the end." I hate the blindness of Christians. God is a "rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Love Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

There must be in our Christian work ethics a profit motive. By GRACE thru Faith, unto good works, is the only way a sinner can begin a Christian life. I receive God's free gift by faith with a promise, from God, that I will be saved by Grace alone, at that moment of salvation. I also know ,from God's word, that I must be sorry for my sins and repent of them and promise God, I will change my life style; without turning away from my sin, I have no proof that my faith is real. I know, God is no respecter of persons, I will get what I work for. God is a rewarder to those who desire Him and serve Him. If I serve sin, I will not get eternal life. The Bible is clear, If one "sows to the flesh, they reap corruption", But if one "sows to the Spirit one reaps eternal life". If one destroys this "work ethic" in the Gospel, he is the "least in the Kingdom", he will, might, be saved ,but as by fire. This is the heresy of pushing "not of works", "faith alone", to the extreme. Balance our message by saying, GRACE produces faith and works. Love to all. Hoffco

 

[SeaBass]

You have not answered my question presented to you twice now: please explain the difference between works of merit and works of obedience, because you don't know the answer.
You have addressed none of the Scripture presented to you, only repeating from your apologetic manual what has already been addressed by me, because you don't know the Scriptures.
You don't have a clue about the Biblical meaning of the gospel.

I gave you Rom 10:3 that speaks of both works: works of merit and works of obedience and Paul shows how works of merit do not save while obeying God's commandments does save.


Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

1 Jn 3:7 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."



God's righteouness is the same as His commandments, Psa 119:172. And righteousness is something one does/works/obeys.

There is an old saying "you are what you eat" Similarly to that it can be said "you are what you do" therefore:

If you do righteousness then you will be righteous.
If you do unrighteousness then you will be unrighteous.

These are the Scriptures
which refute your statements and with which you have not dealt, because you cannot.

Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by grace (not by obedience) you have been saved, through faith (not through obedience),
--and this (salvation) not from yourselves (not because of your obedience), it is the gift of God--
not by works, so that no man can boast. For we are God's workmanship (we are the clay in which
the potter alone forms the image)." (Eph 2:8-10)

If my obedience is the reason God saves me, then I can boast that I did what my own brother did not do,
I obeyed, and he did not.
However, NT apostolic teaching is that it is all the gift of God so that I cannot boast,
for there is not one thing in all of it that I can boast about.
God gets all the glory, I get none based on my part, for I had no part.

The "not of works" of Eph 2:9 refer to works of merit not obedience.

Eph 2:8 says one is saved by faith. Faith is a work. So how can "not of works' of verse 9 eliminate the work of faith of verse 8?

Ro 1:17 - "In the gospel is revealed a righteousness (legal positional right standing before God, guiltlessness)
that is by faith, from first to last, (man's obedience plays absolutely no part in it), just as it is written,
'The righteous will live by faith.' "

What is God's righteousness? Psa 119:172, all they commandments are righteousness. So the bible reveals God's commands to man.

You say righteousness is a "right standing" before God. Again, how does one obtain this righteousness, right standing? 1 Jn 3:7 by DOING righteouness, by WORKING righteousness, Acts 10:35. Paul siad in ROm 6:16 OBEDIENCE unto righteousness.

Obviously then in order to obtain a right standing before God one must obey God's righteouness/commandments.


Show me an example from the bible of one who lived continuously, impentitently in UNrighteousness WITHOUT DOING God's righteousness yet had a "right standing" before God anyway?

Ro 3:21-24 - "But now a righteousness apart from law (works of obedience), has been made known,
to which the law and prophets testify.
This righteousness from God (not from our obedience) comes through faith in Jesus Christ
to all who believe. . .and are justified freely (not on the merit of any obedience) by his grace through
the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

"Righteousness apart from the law" means one cannot be made righteous by keeping the OT law. Col 2:14; Heb 10:9 Christ permanently took the OT law out of the way making it of no effect, inactive and replaced it with His NT law. Again, 1 Jn 3:7; Acts 10:35; Rom 6:16 obedience to Christ' NT law does make one "right standing" before God.

Ro 5:17 - "For if, by the trespass of one man, death reigned through the one man, how much more
will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life
through the one man, Jesus Christ."

The righteousness of/from God, or justification, is the legal declaration of guiltlessness, it is not a change of character.
The change of character follows in the obedience of faith, which sanctifies.

Again, show me an exmple of one who lives and practices UNrighteousness yet still is seen as righteous by God?


One that does UNrighteousness has an UNrighteous character and he maintains that unrighteous character until he repents and starts doing righteousness. So again, show me one who was made righteous while still living in and practicing UNrighteousness. You are what you do: if you do unrighteousness then you are unrighteous.

Ro 6:16-18 - "Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey them, you are slaves to the one you obey- -whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience which leads to righteousness.
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness"

This (obedience) is not referring to justification; i.e., legal declaration of acquittal from guilt.

Nor is it a causal linkage of events from
Paul is simply addressing the issue raised by some that justification by faith alone would remove all moral restraint.
He is showing that a Christian does not throw morality to the winds but, on the contrary, he exchanges sin for righteousness as his new master.
The "obedience which leads to righteousness" is the obedience produced by the gift of faith and which sanctifies.

"obedience unto righteousness" means just what it says that one must obey in order to obtain right standing before God.

Paul NEVER taught justification by faith alone nor did Paul say one "obeys BECAUSE he ALREADY is righteous". So obedience is the "causal link" to be made righteous. You have wrested Rom 6:16 unti it is not even recognizable as God's word anymore.

Ro 9:30-31 - "What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have
obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not
attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works."

Paul said "righteousness is by FAITH and faith is a work. What Paul did NOT say is that righeousness is obtained by faith only. Fleshly Israel was lost for doing works of merit, Rom 10:3, and did not have an obedient faith.

Ro 11:5-6 - At the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace (mercy) would no longer be grace."

Again "no more of works" refers to works of merit. The Jews could not be saved just becasue they werew born Jews or be saved by trying to perfectly keepthe Law of Moses. Also, you did not quote ALL the context in Rom 11. You took 2 verses OUT OF CONTEXT and then ADDED your theology into those two verses.

In the context Paul tells us that fleshly Israel is cast aside but not totally and completely for fleshly Israel could obey the gospel as Paul did and become part of God's foreknown (v2), elect > a CHristian. Paul then tells us who God's people were back THEN during Elijah's time and who God's people are NOW in this PRESENT time. Back THEN God's people were the ones that OBEYED by not bowing to Baal. Then Paul says "at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace" THis "remnant" refers to those fleshly Jews in Acts 2 who OBEYED Peter's gospel message, Acts 2:38 and became Christians (election according to grace), God's "people which He foreknew" Rom 11:2.


When Paul was Saul, he was a fleshly Jew that had been cast off by God and lost. But he was not totally, unrevocably cast aside for he obeyed the gospel Acts 22:16 becoming part of the remnant of Jews that accepted and obeyed Jesus Christ as God's Son, the promised Messiah of the OT.

And these are the Biblical terms
your apologetic manual misconstrues in support of your false gospel:

1) Salvation - is simply saved from the wrath of God on our sin at the final judgment (Ro 5:9)
by forgiveness of sin (Lk 1:77), which removes its guilt, which is justification.

No verse say "faith only" or "doing nothing" gets one forgiveness of sins. Acts 2:38 - repent and be baptized for REMISSION OF SINS.

2) Righteousness - Paul uses "righteousness" in two ways:
a) justification - legal declaration of acquittal of guilt, of right standing before God, because of forgiveness of sin, which saves (Lk 1:77) from God's wrath (Ro 5:9), through faith in his atoning sacrifice (Ro 3;25) which paid the penalty for sin; e.g., Ro 1:17, 3:21-24, 5:17, 9:30-31, 11:5-6.
It is not a change of character, only a positional legal standing of guiltlessness before God.
b) sanctification - the process of holiness, by the power of the Holy Spirit, through the obedience produced by faith, which is a change of character; e.g., Ro 6:16-18.

And HOW does one become righteous before God? By doing/working/obeying God's righteousness, Acts 10:35; 1 Jn 3:7; Rom 6:16. Again, as long as one does unrighteosness he reamins in that unrighteous state. The only way out of the UNrighteous state is by DOING/OBEYING/WORKING God's righteousness. Not YOUR OWN righteouness by doing works of merit, but by doing/obeying GOD'S righteousness.

3) Works - The two works referred to in the NT are:
a) the useless (supposedly "meritorious") works toward salvation, and
b) the obedience resulting from/caused by saving faith, which is a gift (Php 1:29; 1Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27;
Ro 12:3).

THe bible speaks of many different types of works: works of God, works of Satan; works of righteousness,works of unrighteousness, ggod works, eveil works, works of the flesh and maybe a few others I cannot think of right now. So when Paul said "not of works" he was not eliminating ALL these types of works, but was eliminating works of merit in Eph 2:9.


Again, in Rom 6:16 Paul said "obedience UNTO righteousness" and NOT "obedience BECAUSE your are already righteous.
Again note the ORDER OF EVENTS in Rom 6:17,18:

First - servants of sin
Second - OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine
THird - then they were made free from sin.


OBEDIENCE comes BEFORE freed from sin (justification)

Neither of these save us from the wrath of God on our sin at the final judgment.
The obedience resulting from faith does not save us, for we are already saved by the faith which
then produces the obedience.

4) Faith Alone - "For it is by grace (not by obedience) you have been saved, through faith (not through obedience),
--and this (salvation) not from yourselves(not because of your obedience), it is the gift of God--
not by works, so that no man can boast. For we are God's workmanship (we are the clay in which
the potter alone forms the image)." (Eph 2:8-10)

If my obedience is the reason God saves me, then I can boast that I did what my own brother did not do, I obeyed, and he did not.
However, NT apostolic teaching is that it is all the gift of God so that I cannot boast,
for there is not one thing in all of it that I can boast about.
God gets all the glory, I get none based on my part, for I had no part.

Again you are caught wresting a verse. Eph 2:8 says saved by grace though FAITH. the phrase "Faith alone" is not in Eph 2:8. Does it not rasie a 'red flag" in your mind that when you have to CHANGE the bible to get

5) Natural Man and Spiritual Man - Since the fall of Adam, there have been only two groups of people in God's world.
a) the born again (Jn 3:3) into eternal life by the Holy Spirit through faith (the regenerate, or spiritual man),
b) and those who are not (the unregenerate, or natural man).

Apostolic teaching in Ro 8:7-8 reveals that the unregenerate/natural man's mind is
hostile to God (rebellious),
does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
cannot please God (spiritually powerless).

That is the position of everyone before they are born again (Jn 3:3) by the power of the Holy Spirit through faith.
No matter how religious one is, no matter how many works of righteousness one does,
if one is not born again, he cannot even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3), much less enter it (Jn 3:5).
The Pharisees were very religious and did many works of righteousness.
And yet they were God's enemies.

So according to apostolic teaching, there is no obedience pleasing to God by those who are not born again,
and which obedience is the reason God saves them.
All are saved out of disobedience into obedience.

Man is not born totally depraved and the new birth is water baptism:


Jn 3:5--------spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13---Spirit+++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>in the body

6) Work of faith -

1Th 1:3 states: "your work produced by faith"

Works are the result of faith, which is a gift (Ac 18:23; Php 1:29; 1Pe 1:1), not the cause of faith.
The gift of faith first, then obedience.

Until you deal with these Scriptures and come into a Biblical understanding of these terms,
you are preaching an anti-gospel which Paul anathematizes (Gal 1:7-9), and which does not save.

That is a serious miscalculation.

Don't bother us with your false gospel until you have addressed what is presented above.

There is nothing wrong with the KJV's and many other versions that have "work of faith". Faith describes the work being done. If the NIV is trying to separate works from faith then it is wrong for faith without works is dead being alone and a dead faith only cannot save. (The NIV is a horrble translation anyway)

Again, in Mk 2:5 what Jesus saw that is called faith is WORKS the men were doing.