Perhaps the Poorest Translated Verse, found in Romans 10

[chubbena]

So true Chubbena. and when compared to Jeremiah, we have not yet seen trials, eh?

Jeremiah 12:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee,
then how canst thou contend with horses?
and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee,
then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For even thy brethren, and the house of thy father,
even they have dealt treacherously with thee;
yea, they have called a multitude after thee:
believe them not, though they speak fair words unto thee.

In today's language it would be:
If you have reasoned with men in cyberspace, and they have worn you out, how can you preach in the real world?
If you stumble at your computer desk, how will you manage in the public with the flooding of false accusers?
The "Christians". supposedly members of the heavenly kingdom - even they deal treacherously with you; they have come like gangsters after you, believe them not, though they seemed to speak godly words.

 

[Karraster]

It's not that I admire Paul above the other New Testament writers, it's that in looking at Romans we are looking to understand the writer as well. Digging beneath the surface to understand his credentials and pedigree, which are impressive, he was a highly educated man not only in Torah (for which he was zealous) but in philosophy of the modern thinkers of his day, of whom he also quoted. Not only that, his dramatic conversion, his about face from persecuting, to serving the Messiah!

His task was ambitious, as was his calling to not only the gentiles, but his brothers the Israelites, to meld them together as one body of believers in Yeshuah. As others of his high calling, he spread the gospel in spite of the risks he faced, and even considered it a privilege. It was the spirit of God that enabled him to finish well.

Most of us will not face such a trial, but at least we can make every effort to understand what Paul was trying to communicate. If I have misunderstood any point he was working tirelessly to convey, please do advise me my error. That is the point of studying scripture, to better understand. But do not tell me the Old Testament was made null and void!! I know beyond any doubt that is not true. It was from Torah that all the New writings came. It was the scripture that Jesus quoted.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jas 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

The word end here is the same word as Rom 10:4...

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

So now apply this to the Lord. It's the end of Him? No, it is the result, just as it should be in Rom 10:4.

Thanks for pointing this out.

According to this. I was right.

The law, As it applies to my life. Has come to its end!! (been completed)

That does not mean it is dead, it has to work in the non believers life so it can come to an "end" in their life also

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are complete?

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Memo to EG: An ongoing process that ends at His return.

Memo to John..

Positionally. I am complete in Christ.

However. Conditionally. I will not be complete until I am ressurected (day of the Lord.)

You do not understand the difference between the two? No wonder you believe the way you do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let's stop implying the law keepers say it will make us good people and let's stop generalizing them LAWyers, putting them in company with the LAWyers in Yeshua in the flesh on earth's time - because these two are false accusations.

they are?

As long as you still follow the law. When it is completed in you. You are following the law. and claiming it is what makes you a good little boy and girl..

So you can say your not doing it, it does not make it so.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Read which post I answered to and see what is quoted please. I would not called David names.

You said David was under law.

I showed where he did not consider himself under law.


That is what I responded to. I did not say you called him a name/. Where did you get that?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Isn't it amazing that those who reject certain parts of the Word of God for the wrong reason, will start having problems with other truths when they are shown both old and new confirm each other in a very positive way rather than a negative one?

what truth are you showing me?

You pick and chose which parts of the law we should follow. and think that we are misusing things?

The law says you must follow it all. Not pick and chose which parts apply to you today.

I have not done away with ANY part of the law. it all applied to me, Your the one picking and chosing! And I am supposed to listen to you?? HA!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and yet again I notice my question was not answered.

How you people can look at yourselves in the mirror and think you preach truth when you can not even answer simple questions is beyond me. And you want to judge us??

Again, Can anyone answer how Paul can say I AM COMPLETE in Christ in Col. And he IS COMPLETING a work in me until the day of Christ?

Did Paul contradict himself. or is he speaking of two different things.

Come one people. You want to judge me and those like me. Prove you know the word of God and stop hiding from the questions. Or prove yourself to be people that should not be listened to

 

[Karraster]

You said David was under law.

I showed where he did not consider himself under law.


That is what I responded to. I did not say you called him a name/. Where did you get that?

[h=3]Psalm 119[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[h=3]Psalm 119[/h][h=4]א Aleph[/h][SUP]1 [/SUP]Blessed are the undefiled in the way,
who walk in the law of the Lord.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Blessed are they that keep his testimonies,
and that seek him with the whole heart.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]They also do no iniquity:
they walk in his ways.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then shall I not be ashamed,
when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]I will praise thee with uprightness of heart,
when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]I will keep thy statutes:
O forsake me not utterly.

[h=4]ב Beth[/h][SUP]9 [/SUP]Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way?
by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]With my whole heart have I sought thee:
O let me not wander from thy commandments.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Thy word have I hid in mine heart,
that I might not sin against thee.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed art thou, O Lord:
teach me thy statutes.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies,
as much as in all riches.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]I will meditate in thy precepts,
and have respect unto thy ways.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]I will delight myself in thy statutes:
I will not forget thy word.

[h=4]ג Gimel[/h][SUP]17 [/SUP]Deal bountifully with thy servant,
that I may live, and keep thy word.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Open thou mine eyes,
that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]I am a stranger in the earth:
hide not thy commandments from me.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]My soul breaketh for the longing
that it hath unto thy judgments at all times.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed,
which do err from thy commandments.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Remove from me reproach and contempt;
for I have kept thy testimonies.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Princes also did sit and speak against me:
but thy servant did meditate in thy statutes.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Thy testimonies also are my delight
and my counsellors.

[h=4]ד Daleth[/h][SUP]25 [/SUP]My soul cleaveth unto the dust:
quicken thou me according to thy word.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]I have declared my ways, and thou heardest me:
teach me thy statutes.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Make me to understand the way of thy precepts:
so shall I talk of thy wondrous works.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]My soul melteth for heaviness:
strengthen thou me according unto thy word.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Remove from me the way of lying:
and grant me thy law graciously.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]I have chosen the way of truth:
thy judgments have I laid before me.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]I have stuck unto thy testimonies:
O Lord, put me not to shame.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]I will run the way of thy commandments,
when thou shalt enlarge my heart.

[h=4]ה He[/h][SUP]33 [/SUP]Teach me, O Lord, the way of thy statutes;
and I shall keep it unto the end.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law;
yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Make me to go in the path of thy commandments;
for therein do I delight.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Incline my heart unto thy testimonies,
and not to covetousness.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity;
and quicken thou me in thy way.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Stablish thy word unto thy servant,
who is devoted to thy fear.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Turn away my reproach which I fear:
for thy judgments are good.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Behold, I have longed after thy precepts:
quicken me in thy righteousness.

[h=4]ו Vau[/h][SUP]41 [/SUP]Let thy mercies come also unto me, O Lord,
even thy salvation, according to thy word.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me:
for I trust in thy word.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth;
for I have hoped in thy judgments.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]So shall I keep thy law continually
for ever and ever.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And I will walk at liberty:for I seek thy precepts.

 

[Karraster]

[h=3]Micah 6:8[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ps 40: Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
[SUP]8[/SUP]I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your torah is within my heart.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]I have proclaimed the good news of righteousness
In the great assembly;
Indeed, I do not restrain my lips,
O Lord, You Yourself know.
[SUP]10[/SUP]I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart;
I have declared Your faithfulness and Your salvation;
I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth
From the great assembly.

The law states.
1. David is not righteous, He is guilty
2. Sacrifice and burnt offering must be given as a sin offering


If David considered himself under law. He would not say the things he said.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The law given moses is not the only commands God Just because you see someone say, I delight in your commandments, Does not mean they are talking about the law.

Abraham did not have the law, But he delighted in the Lord also.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yet still.

No answer to my question..

 

[just-me]

Micah 6:8

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

Okay, let's take a good look at the progression of events, and see if they are right. Israel cries out to God for deliverance. God hears their cry and sends Moses as an ambassador of God to answer their cry, and deliver them from a sinful environment. Passover begins the process of events that lead to mount Sinai because God wants to instruct His children in righteousness, and to show them about Himself as the God that they have chosen to follow, and serve.

Do I have it right at this point?

Then He instructs them to build a temple for blood letting, and sacrifice for sins, along with other ordinances of temple worship. After all is completed through Jesus Christ, God hears the cry of those wanting to escape their captivity, and reverses the process of events by taking away the temple.

So far so good, or am I a little off at this point?

Maybe He let the old temple be destroyed so He could build another one with different ordinances that had nothing to do with the first temple because the old didn't work right according to what He planned in the beginning.

Now after taking away the temple He sends His Spirit to instruct us according to His character and righteousness after we call out for salvation. In order to do that he must also get rid of written instruction that He gave to Israel. Henceforth, He began with a plan that could be shifted into reverse in case the first one didn't work out right.

True or false?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay, let's take a good look at the progression of events, and see if they are right. Israel cries out to God for deliverance. God hears their cry and sends Moses as an ambassador of God to answer their cry, and deliver them from a sinful environment. Passover begins the process of events that lead to mount Sinai because God wants to instruct His children in righteousness, and to show them about Himself as the God that they have chosen to follow, and serve.

Do I have it right at this point?

Then He instructs them to build a temple for blood letting, and sacrifice for sins, along with other ordinances of temple worship. After all is completed through Jesus Christ, God hears the cry of those wanting to escape their captivity, and reverses the process of events by taking away the temple.

So far so good, or am I a little off at this point?

Maybe He let the old temple be destroyed so He could build another one with different ordinances that had nothing to do with the first temple because the old didn't work right according to what He planned in the beginning.

Now after taking away the temple He sends His Spirit to instruct us according to His character and righteousness after we call out for salvation. In order to do that he must also get rid of written instruction that He gave to Israel. Henceforth, He began with a plan that could be shifted into reverse in case the first one didn't work out right.

True or false?

False.

He frees them because of his promise he made to their father (abraham) In which he said,

Genesis 15:13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years.

After 400 years. God remembered his promise. And sent moses to free his people

Exodus 12:41[SUP]40 [/SUP]Now the sojourn of the children of Israel who lived in Egypt[SUP][a][/SUP] was four hundred and thirty years. [SUP]41 [/SUP]And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years—on that very same day—it came to pass that all the armies of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt. [SUP]42 [/SUP]It is a night of solemn observance to the Lord for bringing them out of the land of Egypt. This is that night of the Lord, a solemn observance for all the children of Israel throughout their generations.

While they were on their way God gave them the law. And Made a covenant with them, If you do this. I will bless you, If you do not do this, I will curse you.

He also (in our stead) Made a statement, which is essential for us all to know and follow.


Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

Which no one was able to keep or follow, Only Christ fulfilled this requirement

As for the temple.

He did not want one made David wanted to have one made for him. Yet God did not even allow david to build one. (the sacrifices were still made. but were not in the Holy of Holies.

Again, The temple (when made) is another picture. One can not enter the presence of God unless the atoning sacrifice is made Christ fulfilled this aspect of the law also

As for tearing the temple down. It was because of the sanctions of lev 26.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
[SUP]28 [/SUP]then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;

and My soul shall abhor you.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

 

[chubbena]

they are?

As long as you still follow the law. When it is completed in you. You are following the law. and claiming it is what makes you a good little boy and girl..

So you can say your not doing it, it does not make it so.

Following the Law is quite different from following the law of man. The law of man says do not follow the Law but rather follow my law which is in His word lawlessness.
You are false witnessing when you said "You are following the law, and claiming it is what makes you a good little boy and girl" because no one has said that.

 

[chubbena]

You said David was under law.

I showed where he did not consider himself under law.


That is what I responded to. I did not say you called him a name/. Where did you get that?

Would you show everyone under what circumstance I said David was under law? Or you just wanted to pull my words, and His Word for that matter, out of context to prove your point?

 

[john832]

The law given moses is not the only commands God Just because you see someone say, I delight in your commandments, Does not mean they are talking about the law.

Abraham did not have the law, But he delighted in the Lord also.

I disagree about Abraham...

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Now this is the same I AM who gave His Law to Moses on Mt. Sinai and then came in the flesh as Christ. If God is anything, He is consistent.

 

[john832]

You said David was under law. I showed where he did not consider himself under law.

Sorry, I missed that one, can you post the #?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

In continuing a study of Romans, I find several erroneous translations, but possibly one of the worst is found in Romans 10. Not accusing any translators of fraud or deliberate deception, just that man is capable of error and that ideology/ preconceived notions, along with threat of life or limb, could taint or sway one's opinion.

Though, to my dismay, I've found such errors in my beloved KJV as well as most modern translations I have sought, I maintain the original autographs to be the inerrant Word of the Most High Almighty, and with the help of the indwelling Spirit bestowed upon believers of Messiah, that no error is big enough to hide the truth, when a proper study of all scripture is engaged upon.

My hope is that any would join in a discussion to cast light upon a true understanding of the Word. Although I do not find it helpful to be inundated with out of context verses to push a personal agenda, no rules of engagement are imposed other than to be courteous.

At the time of this Romans letter, Paul faced several problems. As for the Jews, some maintained the view that gentiles had to become Jews first as part of their faith in Yeshua, while others denied the righteousness of God by asserting their own special place with no regard for God's worldwide intentions. Ironically, those who would ignore history, risk repeating it.
Romans 10


Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


10 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

I believe "Brethren" in this context are both Jewish and gentile believers in Yeshua. Though focused on Israel, Paul's message is also for the gentiles in the congregation, as he will later remind the gentiles of the "obedience of faith," (see also Romans 1:1-7) with particular regard to those Jews who do not yet believe in Yeshua. Paul makes clear in Romans 11 that his "ministry to the gentiles" is on behalf of Israel's salvation.

I have yet to come to what I believe to be the worst translated verse, it is but a few verses away...

Hi there Karraster, there are no "poorly translated verses" in the word of God. Just as there are no errors in God's holy word.

The only error is in your own misunderstanding, that's all.