Perhaps the Poorest Translated Verse, found in Romans 10

Karraster · Mar 25, 2014

I misunderstood your misunderstanding! Last word.last word...na na na na na.....lol

On a serious note, (to any arguing that the law is done away with on a Paul's letter thread), is like saying the Atlantic has no water. Paul was a Torah scholar, and could recite the whole thing backwards and forward. Then there is one verse, mistranslated, [SUP]4 [/SUP]For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth....then goes on to say... [SUP]8 [/SUP]But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart:.....which means that same law is written on your heart for those who love the LORD. It is not done away with, it is in you!!

That Messiah "in us" was the goal of Torah, agrees with the rest of the Word. Paul kept the law/Feasts, took a Nazerite vow, and taught what he lived, he was no hypocrite.

dcontroversal · Mar 25, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

I agree for sure....To say that Jesus isn't sufficient and that he needs our works to complete our salvation kind of lumps Jesus into a weak God category and gives us a right to boast!

eternally-gratefull · Mar 25, 2014

dcontroversal said:

Yep.

Human nature at its best.

Karraster · Mar 25, 2014

dcontroversal said:

I do not understand statements like this. If Jesus truly is Lord, that means we regard Him as King, and do as He says. Then I see those who say Jesus freed us from law, but that is not what Jesus said. He said if we love Him we obey His commands. If He is Lord, don't it matter what He said? It does to me.

If you obey Jesus you are treating Him like he is weak? Wow. More like, you don't regard Him as strong, to render judgement when He comes back.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 25, 2014

Karraster said:

Your problem is you think when Jesus said this he is speaking about the law. God gave many commands which has nothing to do with the law.

Scripture makes it clear. Jesus fulfilled the law in us. Jesus would not contradict himself (considering HE IS THE WORD)

You consider him weak. You think he did not fulfill the law. This we have to finish the work he did not complete. That he needs our help

How sad that you think your work could be added to his to make you more complete iN HIM..

On the contrary, Working by the law makes you incomplete in self.

Tintin · Mar 25, 2014

[video=youtube;gy95tAhGpJM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy95tAhGpJM[/video]

phil112 · Mar 25, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

Which scripture says that? It must have slipped by me.

Karraster · Mar 25, 2014

What is good and what is evil? How are we to discern/define either? Is it not by the law of God?

What year did "Gone With the Wind" come out? Was it in the 40s? In the movie, the famous line, "Frankly my dear..." and it shocked even the secular world! Up until that time the 4 letter word used in that sentence was taboo in film. Look at us today, where the Christian community is more tolerant even participating in worldly things more sinful than even the secular at the time, the 40s. The line keeps moving, what is good/evil.

God does not change, even though one may think He has. God is not created in man's image.

just-me · Mar 26, 2014

Leviticus 2:14 “And if thou offer a meat offering of thy firstfruits unto the LORD, thou shalt offer for the meat offering of thy firstfruits green ears of corn dried by the fire, even corn beaten out of full ears.”

I have always had a problem with the spring harvest having corn. I must say that harvesting corn in the spring sounded pretty corny to me, and on top of that, fruit and vegetables are not “meat.” After searching for some rationality, I found that the word “meat” has no number in the concordance, and so it is not defined as a word in the original Hebrew text. Corn is a warm-season crop. Germination and emergence are optimal when soil temperatures are approximately 85 to 90 F. Cool conditions during planting impose significant stress on corn emergence and seedling health.

In addition, this verse can easily be misunderstood because corn just doesn’t ripen in April or May in Israel. Corn would have to be planted during the last half of May, at the earliest, as the temperatures in and around Jerusalem are close to eighty degrees by that time. Corn demands hot temperatures unlike what the early spring has to offer. So I went to research what crops were actually harvested during the springtime. According to the Strong’s Concordance, I have determined that “ears” mean “tender produce” taken from a garden, vineyard, and/or orchard, and is related to the color of red. The Hebrew word for “ear” is actually “abiyb” which is why the name of the first Hebrew month of the year is called Abib. The word “corn” actually is the act of separating the kernel of wheat or barley from the outer layer of chaff.

So this verse would be more descriptive by understanding it this way; And if thou offer an offering of thy firstfruits unto the LORD, thou shalt offer from of thy firstfruits tender produce from your garden, vineyard, and/or orchard, along with threshed tender grain that is dried by the fire.

This is not a coincidence as we relate all this to what John the Baptist said in Matthew 3:11and 12: “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” And we see Paul alluding to the same in Romans 8:23, when he writes “And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.”

chubbena · Mar 26, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

"You people" - hmmm, I like that tone. It sounded very authoritative.
What you said is the law of man. Yeshua says He comes not to abolish the law but to fulfill. Paul said he uphold the law. Your understanding of "fulfill" and "uphold" is certainly different from many others including most, if not all, commentaries written 50 years ago. Yes you are running in circles and trying different angles trying to wear people out. It's not going to work.
With internet and forums like this, false teachers can no longer deceive. People now has free access to valuable commentaries from the not so old days. They now have many tools to examine whether one said is truth.
It's reformation all over again.
By the way, you probably have a very different understanding of the word "obey".

chubbena · Mar 26, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

It would be my pleasure

Originally Posted by chubbena

Hope everyone understand it's extract from one of Spurgeon's sermons and Crossnote quoted this section to make a point. The original sermon is by no means throwing the first 39 books in the bible out of the window.
That said, the old covenant, if one is referring to the covenant itself rather than the first 39 books in the bible. Yes it did not mention conversion. But you are right, the saints in OT understood and knew the law converts.
When it's pulled out of context, everything goes.

Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

They knew it converted? How is this. Did any of them fulfill the law? David even understand sacrifice and burnt offering God did not desire.

The law never converted anyone. Only the pharisees and LAWyers thought this, And they rejected Christ. because he rejected their righteousness which came by the law (or so they thought)

You just proved that you falsely accused me of saying

And you just proved that you missed Psalm 19:7 which John832 quoted in post #125.
And David, who penned Psalm 19, was neither a Pharisee nor LAWyer.

Karraster · Mar 26, 2014

just-me said:

Leviticus 2:14 “And if thou offer a meat offering of thy firstfruits unto the LORD, thou shalt offer for the meat offering of thy firstfruits green ears of corn dried by the fire, even corn beaten out of full ears.”

I have always had a problem with the spring harvest having corn. I must say that harvesting corn in the spring sounded pretty corny to me, and on top of that, fruit and vegetables are not “meat.” After searching for some rationality, I found that the word “meat” has no number in the concordance, and so it is not defined as a word in the original Hebrew text. Corn is a warm-season crop. Germination and emergence are optimal when soil temperatures are approximately 85 to 90 F. Cool conditions during planting impose significant stress on corn emergence and seedling health.

In addition, this verse can easily be misunderstood because corn just doesn’t ripen in April or May in Israel. Corn would have to be planted during the last half of May, at the earliest, as the temperatures in and around Jerusalem are close to eighty degrees by that time. Corn demands hot temperatures unlike what the early spring has to offer. So I went to research what crops were actually harvested during the springtime. According to the Strong’s Concordance, I have determined that “ears” mean “tender produce” taken from a garden, vineyard, and/or orchard, and is related to the color of red. The Hebrew word for “ear” is actually “abiyb” which is why the name of the first Hebrew month of the year is called Abib. The word “corn” actually is the act of separating the kernel of wheat or barley from the outer layer of chaff.

So this verse would be more descriptive by understanding it this way; And if thou offer an offering of thy firstfruits unto the LORD, thou shalt offer from of thy firstfruits tender produce from your garden, vineyard, and/or orchard, along with threshed tender grain that is dried by the fire.

This is not a coincidence as we relate all this to what John the Baptist said in Matthew 3:11and 12: “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” And we see Paul alluding to the same in Romans 8:23, when he writes “And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.”

Yes, and it is always amazing to realize things that were once seen in a certain way, and then to discover what it "really means!!" Since I began studying the Feasts of the LORD it has opened up much understanding, and you have brought many things to light, thanks for your studies and sharing them.

A little off from your post, but in Revelations concerning "thrust in the sickle" is speaking of grapes (symbolically), and that would be a fall harvest, and agrees with our Messiah's return during Fall Feasts...Yom Kippur, I am thinking.

just-me · Mar 26, 2014

Karraster said:

Very interesting and true. With that in mind, you may want to comment on a post I stated this morning.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/87982-law-works-future-millennium.html

Karraster · Mar 26, 2014

chubbena said:

Speaking of internet and access to information, I recently found that telegraph was invented on Shavuot, that the very first message sent was "What has God wrought" Numbers 23;23.

It is no accident that internet has come in these last days. That we were born in this time is no accident either. The question is how will we use it? To further truth and spread the gospel, the good news of Messiah? Or will we spread half-truths and mislead others causing confusion? That Jesus came to abolish Father's Word? (which would make God a lier, and Jesus a lier) or that Messiah taught us God is love, and He has given us every good law for our protection? (true)

We can say, Messiah drew a line between God's laws and the Rabbinical Laws, obey God, not how to wash our hands or put on our shoes, or make sure we get every last dime out of a man for the church, who then cannot help his parents in need!! That is what is meant by straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel, to dance to any music man plays, but ignore the very God Almighty who created the Heavens and Earth, and everything in them.

As for EG and others like him, you can lead a horse to water, but only God can make him drink!

ChosenbyHim · Mar 26, 2014

oldhermit said:

What about the Koine Greek?

ChosenbyHim · Mar 26, 2014

Karraster said:

What is your question about concerning the rendering "month of Abib"?

There is no error there.

Karraster · Mar 26, 2014

just-me said:

very good! I am going to like that thread a lot, as I have been studying prophecy, very compelling.

ChosenbyHim · Mar 26, 2014

dcontroversal said:

Hi there DC, you are incorrect. There are no mistranslations or errors in the Authorized Version. The error is in your own faulty thinking and Alexandrian mindset.

I worship the God of the Bible, and the God I serve gave me and His other children His perfect and preserved word (Psalm 12:6-7).

And here is a good video by a Bible believing brother in the Lord where he shows that the goal of the KJV Translators were to perfect the earlier English bibles (i.e. Tyndale, Coverdale, Great, Bishops, Geneva, etc.):

The KJB Translators believed they were guided by the hand of God

[video=youtube;iJ__jdzy9jA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ__jdzy9jA[/video]

Published on Nov 21, 2013

In this video I address an error often repeated, and even found in Sam Gipp's work, The Answer Book', That is one, that the KJB translators did not think they were creating a perfect translation and two, that they did not claim that they were led by God in their work.
Both views are false.
The translators state clearly that their goal was to perfect the earlier English versions which were good ones that needed to be polished and thus perfected
And they believed they had done so by...' the good hand of the Lord upon us'.

Karraster · Mar 26, 2014

ChosenbyHim said:

According to Jewish terminology, abib was not the name of a month, it was a term for a stage of ripeness in grain. They capitalized it as a proper noun, then did not capitalize Passover, which was a proper noun. Notice also, the same word was translated Church or synagog, depending on what the translators wanted to convey, it must have been their mindset that "Jewish" things were done away with.

I am not knocking the kjv translation. It was that translation I always used and still do. However, further study does show the translation to miss the mark on several occasions, and has been like an arrow to me, (look at that, don't let that revelation go unnoticed)

God uses everything to help those seeking to find what they seek. I seek the Word first delivered to the saints, and to understand what God is trying to tell me through His Word.

Karraster · Mar 26, 2014

ChosenbyHim said:

the kjv very well may have been inspired by Almighty. I will not go so far as to say it was not, because I do not know. In my studies, I have found an error as an arrow, pointing me in the direction of learning about that thing that was not precise. So, I see errors as beneficial, as long as there are available ancient writings I can compare it to.

Perhaps the Poorest Translated Verse, found in Romans 10

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