It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works

Yes, I am talking to someone who evidently cannot bring himself to believe in the Lord Jesus as the one who makes his eternity secure.
Stop distorting what I posted.

"We are not going to establish ourselves before God, , ,
If it is to be done, God Himself will do it."


It refers to "establish ourselves before God."

You will never establish yourself before God by your good works. To what extent the Lord helps the Christian produce good works, was not the topic.


As Jonah observed, salvation is of YHWH. Thou shalt call His name YHWH-[is]-salvation, for He shall save His people from their sins.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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Atwood, I would like to sincerely know who brainwashed you? This is a serious question. Now don't tell me for the ten thousandths time that you're just "trusting in Jesus". Was it your "pastor" or maybe. A relative? Just curious.
I was raised in the Campbellite movement, proud to be called that too. They brain-washed me. However, my brains got a new washing by the Holy Spirit from the Word of God. I read the whole Bible all the way through and marked all the passages on salvation. It is reiterated over & over that man's only requirement is faith in Christ (not being intellectually convinced that he is "the Son of God," but trusting in Him without works like water baptism). I read from Gen-Rev marking all related passages, even those that opponents like yourself would mark.

Now I have posted the scripture. He who reads it has no excuse for ignorance now. Give it up, Alligator; you oppose yourself.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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Re: Are You Too Chicken to Trust the Lord w/ Ur Eternal Destiny?

Originally Posted by Atwood

For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline. Be not ashamed therefore of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship with the gospel according to the power of God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,


"For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline."

The result of salvation is receiving as a free gift the Holy Spirit as a permanent indweller.
He does not cause us to have fear of losing salvation.
Instead we have power, and love and discipline.

Some may trust in their works and claim that if anyone could trust a Savior for his eternal destiny, he would sin big time because of being secure in salvation. That is a tragic disbelief in the Savior, and moreover it is ironical that while they do not love and do not have godly discipline (but sin all the time), they have the gall to pretend that trusting Christ would cause sin!!!


"God; who
saved us, and called us with a holy calling,
not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,
. . . our Saviour Christ Jesus,
who abolished death, and brought life and
immortality to light through the gospel"

Seems like some Alice-in-Wonderland wanted to claim that salvation and getting eternal life were 2 different things & everyone had salvation. Give me a Break!

If you want salvation & eternal life, there is one common procedure:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.
Whosoever believes in Him . . . have eternal life.


It is true that the text, Paul speaking to Timothy in II Tim 1:9-10, he is actually stating the scriptural understanding that Christ saved all of mankind from death and sin. That through His Incarnation and resurrection He gave life to all men, immortality.
Cassian, your saying it proves nothing. If you want to prove a point from the Bible,you need to quote the text. I don't have time to be posting your verses for you.

But 2 Tim 1 says no such thing. All mankind has not been saved from death & sin. Men die all the time. You reflect the serpent who said, "Ye shall not surely die." Yet Gen 5 drones on, "And he died" over & over.

The unsaved multitude is dead in trespasses & sins, as Eph 1 points out, "ye being dead."
Here is the actual state of unsaved man, it is in Romans 1-3:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.


Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.


And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful: who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.


Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things. And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things. And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God
. . .
for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God;
They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit:
The poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.


Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.


But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Re: OSS - Depends on the Lord, Not the Christian

Originally Posted by Atwood

Originally Posted by Atwood

"But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from evil."- 2 thes 3:3

Why that's not fair, is it? I mean you had rather hold on by your toenails & get the glory for yourself?

The Lord shall establish the believer -- no ifs ands or buts. And He will guard the believer from evil. If you believe now, your future is sure.

That's called OSS = Once saved, Saved! aka, having it made in the shade! better, in the light!

Eternal Security.

You see He is a 1st class Savior, the only Savior. He saves the ones He saves (duh).

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Is that all right with you?

Would it help to recite it 100 times a day until it sinks in?

He shall save His people from their sins.

Now how do you become a "His people"?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.

Though you takes it on the chins,
You shall be saved from sins.

Now you grin & bear a thing or two,
But you never end up in the stew.

He shall save His people from their sins.




Good morning SeaBass.
Unfortunately for your theory, the scripture does not say it; you invent a canard to prevent yourself from trusting the Lord Jesus as Savior. You give no scripture for a "conditionally guarded," which would be not be a guarding from damnation. You invent things not there. And you oppose your own salvation.

The idea that persons are saved as groups to the exclusion of members of that group is nonsense. If the group is saved, the individuals in the group are saved. But we see individuals saved in the Bible, like the Philippian jailer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou (individual) shalt be saved."

There are no conditions affixed to the guarding. He establishes individuals one at a time as they trust Christ as Savior, and also guards them individually. You don't find the Lord groups and saving them from in groups in the gospels or Acts. The invitation goes to individuals: "That whosoever believes" "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

For your own good, Seabass, you need to stop trying to refrain from categories and theories to explain away the plain teaching of the Word of God.

"But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from evil."- 2 thes 3:3


Eternal Security.

He is an effective Savior, the only Savior. He saves the ones He saves.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

recite it 1000 times a day until it sinks in?

He shall save His people from their sins.

He shall save His people from their sins.




Illogical Nonsense.

For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This is a statement about everyone who was foreknown, foreordained, called, and justified. They all reach glorification or the statement is nonsense. If it is true of a group, it must be true of everyone in the group. But you have no right to insert the word "group," as it does not appear in the scripture quoted.

Syllogism:
All men called will be glorified.
This man was called.
Therefore, this man will be glorified.
QED


Individuals are not excluded from a group:


howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life. 1 tim


Be not ashamed [singular individual] therefore of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship [singular individual] with the gospel according to the power of God; who saved
us [all believers including the individual Timothy to whom it is applied] ,
and called
us [applies to singular individual Timothy, thus Tim will be glorified!]
with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,"

The passage started off with the individual Timothy and applied the us to him. It is utter nonsense to argue that a categorical statement about a group does not apply to the individuals in a group; it is formally illogical.


henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give to me at that day; and not to me only, but also to all them that have loved his appearing.

A promise to all a group,has to apply to individuals, as in this case Paul is one of the all.

Here is a statement of assured eternal security for an individual:


"The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom:" see end of 2 Tim.

Titus:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works.


It is absurd to claim that the us here doesn't include individuals. If you take the individuals out of a group, you have nothing in the group. If a group has eternal security, so do the individuals in the group -- elementary logic.

But as I pointed out, the word group did not appear where I quoted proof texts.

Syllogism:
All men called will be glorified.
This man was called.
Therefore, this man will be glorified.
QED

Syllogism:
All Thessalonian believers are guarded to eternal life.
That individual is a Thessalonian believer.
Therefore, that individual is guarded to eternal life.

QED









I see you miss a piece again so I put it in for you in red
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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Irenaeus' best-known book, Adversus Haereses or Against Heresies
I really couldn't care less about Irenaeus or your unproven gnostic theories.

I thought for your benefit I would give you an internet quote on Irenaeus as the most dangerous heretic himself:

While I have not seen any major other treatise explaining why Irenaeus was a major heretic (actually, outside of Church of God circles, I have little that specifically considers him to have been a heretic, though groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses probably do), it appears to me that he may have been the most dangerous heretic.
Why?
Because, Irenaeus' heresies were not obvious to those outside the true Church of God. His heresies and false statements were less numerous and less obvious than Justin's, thus have been missed by nearly all scholars (though some have noticed one or two errors he made).
What were his most important heresies?
Irenaeus heard Polycarp, yet made deals with Rome that disagreed with Polycarp's teachings. Irenaeus knew that Justin did not agree with Polycarp, yet he approved of Justin--and sadly seemed to prefer to be influenced more by him that by Polycarp.

Irenaeus knew that Polycarp condemned heretics such as Marcion and Valentinus, but failed to mention that they were still allowed to be Roman Catholic until at two decades later. Irenaeus supported the Roman Church even though Irenaeus knew they tolerated heretics that had earlier been condemned by Polycarp (and eventually by Irenaeus himself).

Notice this from Tertullian:

Where was Marcion then, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus then, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago,—in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,—and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled (Tertullian. The Prescription against Heretics, Chapter 30. Translated by Peter Holmes. Electronic Version Copyright © 2006 by Kevin Knight. All rights reserved).

Even though Marcion and Valentinus were condemned by Polycarp as a heretic about two decades before Eleutherius became bishop, apparently they were not put out of the Roman Catholic Church then. (Marcion gave a large financial contribution that kept him in good graces for a while--though the Roman Church allegedly returned that contribution after some time.)
And why is all of this about Polycarp and Irenaeus so important?

Because Irenaeus knew that Polycarp had the original faith that the apostles had, but did not stand up for it. Apparently, he did not consider that faith to be important enough to fully follow it personally. Notice what Irenaeus records this about Polycarp:

But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna…always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time (Irenaeus. Adversus Haeres. Book III, Chapter 4, Verse 3 and Chapter 3, Verse 4).

So we have from this early Roman Catholic source that Polycarp and his successors in Asia Minor (at least until the time that Irenaeus wrote this, around 180 A.D.) practiced the true teachings that they learned from the apostles.

Irenaeus also wrote:
And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me?" "I do know thee, the first-born of Satan."(Irenaeus. Adversus Haereses. Book III, Chapter 3, Verse 4. Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1. Edited by Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson. American Edition, 1885. Online Edition Copyright © 2004 by K. Knight).
. . .
Irenaeus also had some teachings that Polycarp held. For example, like Polycarp, Irenaeus clearly did not teach the trinity--he held a binitarian view, hence he did not follow that error of Montanus or Valentinus:

...there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption (Irenaeus. Adversus haereses, Book IV, Preface, Verse 4. Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1. Edited by Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson. American Edition, 1885. Online Edition Copyright © 2004 by K. Knight).

Notice that Irenaeus states that only the Father, the Son, and those who possess the adoption (Christians) are God. This is a binitarian, not a trinitarian view.

So why would binitarians consider Irenaeus a dangerous heretic?
Because he sided with Roman unity above the teachings that he must have known that Polycarp held. And he also introduced prophetic and other misunderstandings that many still accept today.
Now, notice one statement he wrote that Rome really likes (cf. #834 Catechism of the Catholic Church, pp. 240-241):

...the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those who exist everywhere. (Irenaeus. Adversus haereses, Book III, Chapter 3, Verse 2)

But at this time in history, Irenaeus must have known the differences in Passover and the false prophet Montanus, etc. that the faithful in Asia Minor held from those of Rome. Furthermore, the Bible contradicts the account about Peter and Paul founded the Church of God in Rome. Additionally, even Roman Catholic scholars admit that Peter and Paul did NOT found the Church in Rome (for some details, please see What Do Roman Catholic Scholars Actually Teach About Early Church History?). Yet, Irenaeus put out wrong information that is still be relied on today.
It goes on at length.
I say, Bazz, fazz.

I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish.

 
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Mar 12, 2014
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Re: OSS - Depends on the Lord, Not the Christian

Atwood said:
Illogical Nonsense.

For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This is a statement about everyone who was foreknown, foreordained, called, and justified. They all reach glorification or the statement is nonsense. If it is true of a group, it must be true of everyone in the group. But you have no right to insert the word "group," as it does not appear in the scripture quoted.

Syllogism:
All men called will be glorified.
This man was called.
Therefore, this man will be glorified.
QED


Individuals are not excluded from a group:


howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life. 1 tim


Be not ashamed [singular individual] therefore of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship [singular individual] with the gospel according to the power of God; who saved
us [all believers including the individual Timothy to whom it is applied] ,
and called
us [applies to singular individual Timothy, thus Tim will be glorified!]
with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,"

The passage started off with the individual Timothy and applied the us to him. It is utter nonsense to argue that a categorical statement about a group does not apply to the individuals in a group; it is formally illogical.


henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give to me at that day; and not to me only, but also to all them that have loved his appearing.

A promise to all a group,has to apply to individuals, as in this case Paul is one of the all.

Here is a statement of assured eternal security for an individual:


"The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom:" see end of 2 Tim.

Titus:


looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works.

It is absurd to claim that the us here doesn't include individuals. If you take the individuals out of a group, you have nothing in the group. If a group has eternal security, so do the individuals in the group -- elementary logic.

But as I pointed out, the word group did not appear where I quoted proof texts.

Syllogism:
All men called will be glorified.
This man was called.
Therefore, this man will be glorified.
QED

Syllogism:
All Thessalonian believers are guarded to eternal life.
That individual is a Thessalonian believer.
Therefore, that individual is guarded to eternal life.

QED



The nonsense is the Calvinistic predestination. God never randomly unconditionally choose certain individuals to be saved, but it was always about the GROUP CHRISTIAN. When Christianity began, the church began at Acts 2, you cannot show me a single example of one individual saved unconditionally outside the group, not one example of an individual outside the group that God establishes and guards.

God foreknew and predestined the group, but God never predetermined what individuals would or would not be in the group, that is a choice God left up to man. Calvinism tries to make salvation unconditional about the individual when God made it conditional upon being in the group.

One can be in the foreknown group, become unfaithful and fall out of that foreknown group and become lost. The group is still saved but the fallen individual no longer is. This is what you are trying so hard to avoid and make it about the individual being UNconditionally saved and NOT about being saved CONDTIONALLY within the group "Christian".



You posted This is a statement about everyone who was foreknown,

Rom 8:29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Here is another interpretation I have seen others put on verse 29.

"For whom He did foreknow" Their interpretation is God foreknew EVERYONE, there has not been a single person enter this world God did not foreknow. And it is every single person's destiny to be conformed to the image of His son, that is, it is every single person's destiny to be a Christian. Just as fish are destined to swim in water, birds destined to fly in the air it is every man's destiny to be a Christian. Then why isn't everyman a Christian? Because God gave every man free will and most use their free will to fight against their destiny.

So if you want to argue God foreknew "EVERYONE" then that means everyone that ever lived and not just a so called "Calvinistic elect"






 
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Mar 28, 2014
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Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works

Stop distorting what I posted.

"We are not going to establish ourselves before God, , ,
If it is to be done, God Himself will do it."


It refers to "establish ourselves before God."

You will never establish yourself before God by your good works. To what extent the Lord helps the Christian produce good works, was not the topic.
As Jonah observed, salvation is of YHWH. Thou shalt call His name YHWH-[is]-salvation, for He shall save His people from their sins.
You classify works to suit your evil intent of false doctrine. I distorted nothing ..you posted I copy and pasted . Now you are trying to change your words
Yes, I am talking to someone who evidently cannot bring himself to believe in the Lord Jesus as the one who makes his eternity secure.
so where is your supporting scripture.
you need a whole chapter...look at the red...what does the grace of God that brings salvation teach you?
[h=3]Titus 2[/h]King James Version (KJV)

2 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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Re: Are You Too Chicken to Trust the Lord w/ Ur Eternal Destiny?

Originally Posted by Atwood

For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline. Be not ashamed therefore of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship with the gospel according to the power of God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,


"For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline."

The result of salvation is receiving as a free gift the Holy Spirit as a permanent indweller.
He does not cause us to have fear of losing salvation.
Instead we have power, and love and discipline.

Some may trust in their works and claim that if anyone could trust a Savior for his eternal destiny, he would sin big time because of being secure in salvation. That is a tragic disbelief in the Savior, and moreover it is ironical that while they do not love and do not have godly discipline (but sin all the time), they have the gall to pretend that trusting Christ would cause sin!!!


"God; who
saved us, and called us with a holy calling,
not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,
. . . our Saviour Christ Jesus,
who abolished death, and brought life and
immortality to light through the gospel"

Seems like some Alice-in-Wonderland wanted to claim that salvation and getting eternal life were 2 different things & everyone had salvation. Give me a Break!

If you want salvation & eternal life, there is one common procedure:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.
Whosoever believes in Him . . . have eternal life.




Cassian, your saying it proves nothing. If you want to prove a point from the Bible,you need to quote the text. I don't have time to be posting your verses for you.

But 2 Tim 1 says no such thing. All mankind has not been saved from death & sin. Men die all the time. You reflect the serpent who said, "Ye shall not surely die." Yet Gen 5 drones on, "And he died" over & over.

The unsaved multitude is dead in trespasses & sins, as Eph 1 points out, "ye being dead."
Here is the actual state of unsaved man, it is in Romans 1-3:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.


Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.


And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful: who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.


Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things. And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things. And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God
. . .
for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God;
They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit:
The poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.


Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.


But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God
Wow, the more I point out, the more you reject of scripture. Really, you don't believe in the Incarnation? You don't believe Christ's resurrection gave life to all mankind, to the world. I cited the texts for you to check in context. Citing texts like you do is meaningless unless one also reads it in context. This is probably your greatest problem. You have isolated a few texts and you keep posting the same ones hoping, I imagine, that if you post them often enough, somehow scripture might change its meaning. But alas, your posting is futile as it does not support what your theory demands.

Another serious problem with your theology is that you begin with Original Sin which is why you don't recognize the salvific content of the Incarnation and resurrection. Your salvation is solely based on the Anselmian theory of Satisfaction which is why you think you are "saved" instead of simply being justified by faith and it is the relationship with Christ that constitutes "salvation" which is actually the attaining of eternal life with Christ. Along with the false concept of OSAS which you now call OSS, the nefarious, faith only theory. You are steeped in humanism and none of them can align with scripture which is quite obvious to many others, in spite of your consistant judgement of others which is quite meaningless.
 
A

Alligator

Guest
Atwood, I would like to sincerely know who brainwashed you? This is a serious question. Now don't tell me for the ten thousandths time that you're just "trusting in Jesus". Was it your "pastor" or maybe. A relative? Just curious.
I was raised in the Campbellite movement, proud to be called that too. They brain-washed me. However, my brains got a new washing by the Holy Spirit from the Word of God. I read the whole Bible all the way through and marked all the passages on salvation. It is reiterated over & over that man's only requirement is faith in Christ (not being intellectually convinced that he is "the Son of God," but trusting in Him without works like water baptism). I read from Gen-Rev marking all related passages, even those that opponents like yourself would mark.

Now I have posted the scripture. He who reads it has no excuse for ignorance now. Give it up, Alligator; you oppose yourself.
And let me guess, you probably think the "Campbellites" started the Church if Christ, don't you?? Let me tell you something at wood. Anyone can post a long list of scriptures in all different colors but you have to understand what you post.

I will give up on people who refuse to open their eyes, but I will never give up on the truth.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Both Prophet Paul & Prophet Peter Taught Eternal Security

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. - 1 Pet 1

Now don't come forth with the nonsense about groups, as if there were group faith that resulted in group salvation.

Now Peter had 1st hand experience with this. He had denied the Lord, but the Lord had prayed that Peter's faith not fail, & it did not fail. The Lord does not give a blanket protection in advance over all situations. The Christian is illustrated by Peter walking on water, having to maintain faith to keep from sinking in the water. Yet when faith falters in a situation, the Lord reaches down the hand and doesn't let any believer sink into damnation. The Christian does not stop trusting Christ as Savior got eternal destiny, however.

Peter was guarded through faith. Peter was guarded by the Lord through faith. Peter was guarded by the intercessory prayer of the Lord Jesus that Peter's faith fail not. We know that had to be answered yes, by the Father. What we see is that this "yes" guaranteed Peter's trust in the Lord Jesus for salvation, eternal life, not Peter's situational faith for a particular trial.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto
an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Let no one come forth with the garbage that salvation dependent on faith is something every man has -- the unsaved wouldn't be unsaved if they trusted the Lord Jesus as Savior.

OSS = Once saved, saved!
It is not that the believer is given a crack at salvation, if he squares his hippopotamus some way, no, salvation is a free gift. The free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Are you so invested in religious pride that you cannot confess how very depraved you are, how you must have salvation, giving up any dream of works-validation?

For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works, lest any self-righteous religionist should boast.

Publican sinners are being called, not pretender Pharisees.
God be merciful to me a sinner is the path to salvation,
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
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Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works

Originally Posted by Atwood

Stop distorting what I posted.

"We are not going to establish ourselves before God, , ,
If it is to be done, God Himself will do it."


It refers to "establish ourselves before God."

You will never establish yourself before God by your good works. To what extent the Lord helps the Christian produce good works, was not the topic.




As Jonah observed, salvation is of YHWH. Thou shalt call His name YHWH-[is]-salvation, for He shall save His people from their sins.


You classify works to suit your evil intent of false doctrine. I distorted nothing ..you posted I copy and pasted . Now you are trying to change your words
Yes, I am talking to someone who evidently cannot bring himself to believe in the Lord Jesus as the one who makes his eternity secure.





Y so where is your supporting scripture.
Where have you bean?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works" lest NewBirth should boast.

I just reposted to Cassian's claim as to how I just had a few verses. So I'm not going to repeat all that, just post some for you also:

Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;

Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
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Re: OSS - Depends on the Lord, Not the Christian

Originally Posted by Atwood



Illogical Nonsense.

For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This is a statement about everyone who was foreknown, foreordained, called, and justified. They all reach glorification or the statement is nonsense. If it is true of a group, it must be true of everyone in the group. But you have no right to insert the word "group," as it does not appear in the scripture quoted.

Syllogism:
All men called will be glorified.
This man was called.
Therefore, this man will be glorified.
QED


Individuals are not excluded from a group:


howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life. 1 tim


Be not ashamed [singular individual] therefore of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship [singular individual] with the gospel according to the power of God; who saved
us [all believers including the individual Timothy to whom it is applied] ,
and called
us [applies to singular individual Timothy, thus Tim will be glorified!]
with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,"

The passage started off with the individual Timothy and applied the us to him. It is utter nonsense to argue that a categorical statement about a group does not apply to the individuals in a group; it is formally illogical.


henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give to me at that day; and not to me only, but also to all them that have loved his appearing.

A promise to all a group,has to apply to individuals, as in this case Paul is one of the all.

Here is a statement of assured eternal security for an individual:


"The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom:" see end of 2 Tim.

Titus:


looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works.

It is absurd to claim that the us here doesn't include individuals. If you take the individuals out of a group, you have nothing in the group. If a group has eternal security, so do the individuals in the group -- elementary logic.

But as I pointed out, the word group did not appear where I quoted proof texts.

Syllogism:
All men called will be glorified.
This man was called.
Therefore, this man will be glorified.
QED

Syllogism:
All Thessalonian believers are guarded to eternal life.
That individual is a Thessalonian believer.
Therefore, that individual is guarded to eternal life.

QED




The nonsense is the Calvinistic predestination.



You posted This is a statement about everyone who was foreknown,

Rom 8:29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


More nonsense. I already gave the syllogisms that refute your group fantasy. No need to repeat below.

Do you know the difference between a restriction & a non-restrictive modifier?
"everyone who was foreknown" is restrictive, like Everyone who drinks shoe polish will shine." Such a statement does not mean that everyone drinks shoe polish. If it had a comma after "everyone," then it would be a comment about everyone in the world.

The idea that everyman in the world is one of Christ's brethren is nonsense. The sheep & goat judgment illustrates how not everyone is Christ's brethren. The sheep & goats of Mat 25 are judged for how they treated a 3rd group, Christ's brethren. Your attempt to escape the plain teaching of Rom 8 by mentioning Calvin & inventing that all men are Christ's brethren is ridiculous. If it were so, then all men would be glorified -- then you would be advocating universalist eternal security of everyone, which is patently false, even if a load of so-called "Church Fathers" believed it.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

Eternal security of an individual:

The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom:" see end of 2 Tim.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
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Re: Both Prophet Paul & Prophet Peter Taught Eternal Security

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. - 1 Pet 1

Now don't come forth with the nonsense about groups, as if there were group faith that resulted in group salvation.


Sure Peter is talkig about a group: Christian. He refers them as "elect" in verse 2.
In verse 2, who have been begotten? Christians
Who has an incorruptible inheritance in heaven? Christians
Who are kept by God through faith? Christians


Obviously Peter is talking to, referring Christians. None of what Peter said in v2 refers to an individual outside of the group Christian.
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
933
22
18
Apostasy is a fact. Men do depart from "the faith," doctrinal orthodoxy, the things we must believe, be convinced of.
By their fruits, you will know the regenerate heirs of eternal life and not by their doctrinal orthodoxy.

Faith is a grace given by God. Yet, men and women are responsible for the graces that have been given to them. When men and women (young and old), consider their existence, it is good and right for the creature to respond to the evident Creator.

There are arguments that favor guilt by original sin. There are arguments that favor innocence until an age of accountability. [I hold to the former here more than to the later]?

Can the unborn be saved who die in the womb?
Can infants be saved?
Can the mentally retarded by saved?
Can the ignorant be saved who don't understand doctrinal orthodoxy?
Where does the Bible teach "educational regeneration" (as in you are saved when you have been educated in orthodox doctrine and believe the orthodox doctrine)? What new doctrine is this?
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
We are justified by faith ( believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior ) and therefor we do as He said for us to do ( the works that follow ). We do not boost about those works, nor do we do them to earn our way to heaven. We do them out of love and honor for our Lord.

If you however after believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior return back to the way of the world, and produce nothing but bad works you will fall to judgment of hell fire as the scriptures say. Plus if for some tribulation in your life occurs that causes you to deny Christ you fall to judgment of hell fire. Matthew 25 also gives another form of denying Jesus besides the traditional not believing in Him that the gospel has been watered down to, and that is not helping others ( good works ). It shows in that chapter those who were cast away for not doing good works.
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
933
22
18
...

Can the unborn be saved who die in the womb?
Can infants be saved?
Can the mentally retarded by saved?
Can the ignorant be saved who don't understand doctrinal orthodoxy?
Where does the Bible teach "educational regeneration" (as in you are saved when you have been educated in orthodox doctrine and believe the orthodox doctrine)? What new doctrine is this?
Roman Catholics and some on this website have held to a position of "baptismal regeneration" where you are saved when you are baptized.

"Educational regeneration" is some new doctrine that appears to affirm salvation based on intellectual assent to "doctrinal orthodoxy".

No, no.

Baptism is good. Education is good. But, "Salvation is of the Lord" (Jonah 2:9). Salvation from God's strict justice (yet to be revealed) requires more than intellectual assent to "doctrinal orthodoxy". It requires grace, spirit and a new heart supernaturally given by God.

Prayer: Lord, have mercy upon me, a sinner.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works

Originally Posted by Atwood

Stop distorting what I posted.

"We are not going to establish ourselves before God, , ,
If it is to be done, God Himself will do it."


It refers to "establish ourselves before God."

You will never establish yourself before God by your good works. To what extent the Lord helps the Christian produce good works, was not the topic.




As Jonah observed, salvation is of YHWH. Thou shalt call His name YHWH-[is]-salvation, for He shall save His people from their sins.


You classify works to suit your evil intent of false doctrine. I distorted nothing ..you posted I copy and pasted . Now you are trying to change your words
Yes, I am talking to someone who evidently cannot bring himself to believe in the Lord Jesus as the one who makes his eternity secure.







Where have you bean?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works" lest NewBirth should boast.

I just reposted to Cassian's claim as to how I just had a few verses. So I'm not going to repeat all that, just post some for you also:

Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;

Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
And not a single text supports "eternal security". In fact, all of them deny it since they all have conditions attached to them. Nothing about faith ONLY, nothing about having been saved but that we receive the salvation of our souls at the end, IF we endure to the end. Scripture is quite straightforward, but one will never understand when you interpret from the peradigm of predestination.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Eternal Security & Incorruptible Seed 1 Peter 1

"knowing that ye were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers; but with precious blood, as of a lamb without spot, even the blood of Christ: who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of the times for your sake, who through him are believers in God, that raised him from the dead, and gave him glory; so that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently: having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth."

So what is Peter saying here?
who through him are believers in God,

through the instrumentality of Christ the Christian is a believer.
How is it that Christ is the instrumentality of the Christian believing?
Is it His actions which motivated their faith?
But Peter's audience probably did not see the Lord Jesus in action on earth.
Is it that here again we see a divine interference in the supposed free will of man, faith being a gift given by the Lord Jesus to the sinner effecting his transformation?

This passage, at least for me, needs more study.

The 2nd part emphasized is
"having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible.

Here is a possible explanation of why the believer is eternally secure, aside from God's promise of eternal life, his direct assurances of our safety in Christ: The believer undergoes a re-creation process called a new birth. We are begotten again of incorruptible seed. This begotten theme is repeated elsewhere in scripture, particularly in 1 John. I conclude from such passages that the Christian has a new nature which cannot sin, though his old nature hangs around, enabling the Christian to put on 2 pair of clothes, old man & new man, alternatively called putting on Christ in Rom 13. As the new nature is incorruptible, it must endure forever. In Romans 7 from the carnal (old man ) state, Paul says that when he sins (contrary to his better nature) it is no longer I but sin dwelling in me, the me further explained as the flesh (the old man). Dr Jekyl must persist forever in eternal life, while Mr. Hyde is doomed to extinction at the Christian's death -- he who has suffered in the flesh, has ceased from sin as Peter tells us.

It is interesting how much Peter's theology is like Paul's -- and no wonder, they are both prophets giving us God's word.

Is anyone out there more interested in being begotten again than in arguing?

All you need do is put your trust in the Lord Jesus for your salvation; trust Him with your eternal destiny. Rest assured that whatever good work He begins in you He will be faithful to complete it. He is not called Iēsous (Yehoshua' = YHWH [is] salvation]) for nothing.
Thou shalt call His name YHWH salvation,
for He shall save His people from their sins.




















































 
K

Kerry

Guest
Re: Eternal Security & Incorruptible Seed 1 Peter 1


Thou shalt call His name YHWH salvation,
for He shall save His people from their sins.


[/QUOTE]

So you are either incapable of sin or you can sin and its of no consequence?
 
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
31
0
Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works

Originally Posted by Atwood

Stop distorting what I posted.

"We are not going to establish ourselves before God, , ,
If it is to be done, God Himself will do it."


It refers to "establish ourselves before God."

You will never establish yourself before God by your good works. To what extent the Lord helps the Christian produce good works, was not the topic.




As Jonah observed, salvation is of YHWH. Thou shalt call His name YHWH-[is]-salvation, for He shall save His people from their sins.


You classify works to suit your evil intent of false doctrine. I distorted nothing ..you posted I copy and pasted . Now you are trying to change your words
Yes, I am talking to someone who evidently cannot bring himself to believe in the Lord Jesus as the one who makes his eternity secure.







Where have you bean?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works" lest NewBirth should boast.

I just reposted to Cassian's claim as to how I just had a few verses. So I'm not going to repeat all that, just post some for you also:

Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;

Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
You pull pieces of scripture to prove your point deal with this,I posted it a couple times but you ignored...what say you.I suppose you are looking for a translation that suits you or a greek verb...You are rejecting the word of God
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.