Professional theologians are not the only ones with a tendency to behave as if God only exists in ways that they can define and categorize (and control). In reality, God can move in mysterious ways that we can't always define and categorize (and control). The Bible tells us what we need to know about God from the Bible. Observation of nature, reason, logic and perhaps intuition should add to our knowledge. Human understanding will never have God all figured out.
It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security
- Thread starter Atwood
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Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works
Let me show you the folly of your OSS, ES doctrine in this scripture...unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away,(the inheritance is incorruptible and reserved in heaven not you) reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith (it is for those who are guarded by the power of God through faith, one has to be continually faithful and we know faith without works is dead)unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (that salvation will be revealed in the last time,it has not been revealed to you yet that is why it is called HOPE).
1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
Let me show you the folly of your OSS, ES doctrine in this scripture...unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away,(the inheritance is incorruptible and reserved in heaven not you) reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith (it is for those who are guarded by the power of God through faith, one has to be continually faithful and we know faith without works is dead)unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (that salvation will be revealed in the last time,it has not been revealed to you yet that is why it is called HOPE).
1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
2 Pete 1 God Gave Us All Things for Life & Godliness
God is a great & gracious giver. He has given the Christian eternal life, just for trusting the Lord Jesus as Savior.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.
Believing on (trusting in) the Lord Jesus causes one to become a child of God (saved).
One term that the Lord uses for the children of God is sheep. Of His sheep He says:
"I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish."
Eternal life, salvation, is a free gift of God.
"The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." "For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works." (Eph 2).
Salvation, eternal life is a gift that was never earned by works. And likewise, works don't take the gift away. In fact, once the sinner is a Christian, he enters the "much more" care of the Lord in present salvation (Romans 5). If we were loved and regenerated when sinners, how much more are we now under God's care to preserve our status as children of God. The Lord corrects His children, He does not roast them in hell.
In the light of the above, consider 1 Peter 1 where we read:
"Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that his divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that called us by his own glory and virtue; whereby he has granted to us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust."
Look at the gift words:
Grace granted granted & possibly "called."
God "has granted to us [believers] all things that pertain to life and godliness." God "has granted to us His precious & exceeding great promises." Eternal life is a thing that pertains to life. In that He has granted (free gift) eternal life, we shall never perish; for if we perished the life would not be eternal.
God has granted us all things that pertain to godliness. We shall not fail because of lack of godliness. We have escaped from corruption. If the believer somehow fell short of eternal life, he would not have received all things to pertain to life & godliness. But by God's grace we have thus received.
Eternal security is the only conclusion we may come to by studying all the passages in the Bible on subject of salvation. The evidence is more than sufficient; it is conclusive.
God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life,
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
There can never be a "whoops, I lost one."
He shall save His people from their sins.
God is a great & gracious giver. He has given the Christian eternal life, just for trusting the Lord Jesus as Savior.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.
Believing on (trusting in) the Lord Jesus causes one to become a child of God (saved).
One term that the Lord uses for the children of God is sheep. Of His sheep He says:
"I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish."
Eternal life, salvation, is a free gift of God.
"The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." "For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works." (Eph 2).
Salvation, eternal life is a gift that was never earned by works. And likewise, works don't take the gift away. In fact, once the sinner is a Christian, he enters the "much more" care of the Lord in present salvation (Romans 5). If we were loved and regenerated when sinners, how much more are we now under God's care to preserve our status as children of God. The Lord corrects His children, He does not roast them in hell.
In the light of the above, consider 1 Peter 1 where we read:
"Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that his divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that called us by his own glory and virtue; whereby he has granted to us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust."
Look at the gift words:
Grace granted granted & possibly "called."
God "has granted to us [believers] all things that pertain to life and godliness." God "has granted to us His precious & exceeding great promises." Eternal life is a thing that pertains to life. In that He has granted (free gift) eternal life, we shall never perish; for if we perished the life would not be eternal.
God has granted us all things that pertain to godliness. We shall not fail because of lack of godliness. We have escaped from corruption. If the believer somehow fell short of eternal life, he would not have received all things to pertain to life & godliness. But by God's grace we have thus received.
Eternal security is the only conclusion we may come to by studying all the passages in the Bible on subject of salvation. The evidence is more than sufficient; it is conclusive.
God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life,
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
There can never be a "whoops, I lost one."
He shall save His people from their sins.
Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works
Originally Posted by Atwood
"For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works" lest . . . should boast.
1 Pet 1:3ff
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ:8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith,even the salvation of your souls.
Good morning, NewB. I commend you for quoting the Word of God instead of merely pontificating as some do.
You insert things not implied by the text. The guarding is by the power of God. The text does not say anything about what one has to be or do. The means of the guarding is faith or faithfulness, though it does not say whose faithfulness is meant -- it may refer to God's faithfulness. The means does not change the fact. But as to faith, we note how the Lord Jesus acted so that Peter's faith would not fail, & it did not. The idea that the Lord maintains the believer's faith is thus quite reasonable. But however you interpret the means of faith/faithfulness, the inheritance is incorruptible, reserved, & guarded by God.
Our hope is the expectation that we have that God will fulfill His promises to us. This hope is one of the 3 cardinal virtues of 1 Cor 13 and does not imply uncertainty. The revelation of all that our salvation entails is not yet revealed. Eye has not seen, ear has not heard. We are promised to freely receive all things (Rom 8). But while there is much in our salvation not yet revealed, that in no way implies that the salvation is in doubt; we just don't know everything in that box.
We are guarded to a incorruptible inheritance, a salvation guarded by the power of God, though we don't yet know the greatness of its substance. The fact that much of it is not yet revealed implies no uncertainty as to receiving that salvation. That salvation is incorruptible, reserved, and guarded.
And that means that we are eternally secure. OSS = once saved, saved.
Is it not time to stop arguing & opposing yourself, and actually trust the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sin.
But first you must become a "His people."
Originally Posted by Atwood
"For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works" lest . . . should boast.
1 Pet 1:3ff
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ:8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith,even the salvation of your souls.
Good morning, NewB. I commend you for quoting the Word of God instead of merely pontificating as some do.
You insert things not implied by the text. The guarding is by the power of God. The text does not say anything about what one has to be or do. The means of the guarding is faith or faithfulness, though it does not say whose faithfulness is meant -- it may refer to God's faithfulness. The means does not change the fact. But as to faith, we note how the Lord Jesus acted so that Peter's faith would not fail, & it did not. The idea that the Lord maintains the believer's faith is thus quite reasonable. But however you interpret the means of faith/faithfulness, the inheritance is incorruptible, reserved, & guarded by God.
Our hope is the expectation that we have that God will fulfill His promises to us. This hope is one of the 3 cardinal virtues of 1 Cor 13 and does not imply uncertainty. The revelation of all that our salvation entails is not yet revealed. Eye has not seen, ear has not heard. We are promised to freely receive all things (Rom 8). But while there is much in our salvation not yet revealed, that in no way implies that the salvation is in doubt; we just don't know everything in that box.
We are guarded to a incorruptible inheritance, a salvation guarded by the power of God, though we don't yet know the greatness of its substance. The fact that much of it is not yet revealed implies no uncertainty as to receiving that salvation. That salvation is incorruptible, reserved, and guarded.
And that means that we are eternally secure. OSS = once saved, saved.
Is it not time to stop arguing & opposing yourself, and actually trust the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sin.
But first you must become a "His people."
Re: Both Prophet Paul & Prophet Peter Taught Eternal Security
The promises are made to all believers, the promise of having eternal life & never perishing. Every believer has these promises. If he could be ejected from the promise he received, God would be a liar. But He is not. He is faithful. He has told all believers, you are going to Heaven. He will not say, while I promised you & every other believer an eternity of happiness, I can eject you from my promise because I also gave that promise to others.
You argument is absurd.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
The promises are made to all believers, the promise of having eternal life & never perishing. Every believer has these promises. If he could be ejected from the promise he received, God would be a liar. But He is not. He is faithful. He has told all believers, you are going to Heaven. He will not say, while I promised you & every other believer an eternity of happiness, I can eject you from my promise because I also gave that promise to others.
You argument is absurd.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works
I have no problem with the concept of being saved by and through faith. However, justification by faith is NOT salvation,
Also, if we are indeed saved by and through faith, then eternal security is NOT a scriptural possibility. This is the issue of your false view. You actually discard faith and place salvation upon some predestinated edict by God. You have done an admirable job at discrediting scripture regarding the clear teaching that a believer can lose faith, If you are contending that faith is fatuous and predestination is how one is saved you have a point, but it cannot be found in scripture.
I find it remarkable aIt just how many rationalizations you have presented in turning scripture on its head regarding faith.What constitutes the definition of a scriptural believer. Reading your responses is as if there is no such thing as a believer.
It is very understandable within a predestination system since man is passive and does not have a relationship with God, but only an arrangement dictated by decrees. Get rid of the blinders that is causing you to hold to many false teachings.
I have no problem with the concept of being saved by and through faith. However, justification by faith is NOT salvation,
Also, if we are indeed saved by and through faith, then eternal security is NOT a scriptural possibility. This is the issue of your false view. You actually discard faith and place salvation upon some predestinated edict by God. You have done an admirable job at discrediting scripture regarding the clear teaching that a believer can lose faith, If you are contending that faith is fatuous and predestination is how one is saved you have a point, but it cannot be found in scripture.
I find it remarkable aIt just how many rationalizations you have presented in turning scripture on its head regarding faith.What constitutes the definition of a scriptural believer. Reading your responses is as if there is no such thing as a believer.
It is very understandable within a predestination system since man is passive and does not have a relationship with God, but only an arrangement dictated by decrees. Get rid of the blinders that is causing you to hold to many false teachings.
Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works
No it says...reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith .
this is what you say....
This is simple scripture brother why do you put a twist on it? the inheritance is reserved for "you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith" how can you say...The text does not say anything about what one has to be or do. The means of the guarding is faith or faithfulness, though it does not say whose faithfulness is meant .The epistle is addressed to... [h=3]1 Peter 1[/h]King James Version (KJV)
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Originally Posted by Atwood
"For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works" lest . . . should boast.
1 Pet 1:3ff
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ:8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith,even the salvation of your souls.
Good morning, NewB. I commend you for quoting the Word of God instead of merely pontificating as some do.
You insert things not implied by the text. The guarding is by the power of God.(the guarding is by the power of God through faith ...big difference) The text does not say anything about what one has to be or do.(you did not take time to read vs 6-9) The means of the guarding is faith or faithfulness, though it does not say whose faithfulness is meant(it has to be the faith of those the inheritance is reserved for) -- it may refer to God's faithfulness (because you want it to). The means does not change the fact. But as to faith, we note how the Lord Jesus acted so that Peter's faith would not fail, & it did not. The idea that the Lord maintains the believer's faith is thus quite reasonable. But however you interpret the means of faith/faithfulness, the inheritance is incorruptible, reserved in heaven, & you are guarded by the power of God through faith.(even this you can't get right)
Our hope is the expectation that we have that God will fulfill His promises to us. This hope is one of the 3 cardinal virtues of 1 Cor 13 and does not imply uncertainty. The revelation of all that our salvation entails is not yet revealed. Eye has not seen, ear has not heard. We are promised to freely receive all things (Rom 8). But while there is much in our salvation not yet revealed, that in no way implies that the salvation is in doubt; we just don't know everything in that box.
(the text does not say salvation is guarded, salvation is reserved in heaven) it is for, you who by the power God are guarded through faith
And that means that we are eternally secure. OSS = once saved, saved.
Is it not time to stop arguing & opposing yourself, and actually trust the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sin.
But first you must become a "His people."
"For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works" lest . . . should boast.
1 Pet 1:3ff
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ:8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith,even the salvation of your souls.
Good morning, NewB. I commend you for quoting the Word of God instead of merely pontificating as some do.
You insert things not implied by the text. The guarding is by the power of God.(the guarding is by the power of God through faith ...big difference) The text does not say anything about what one has to be or do.(you did not take time to read vs 6-9) The means of the guarding is faith or faithfulness, though it does not say whose faithfulness is meant(it has to be the faith of those the inheritance is reserved for) -- it may refer to God's faithfulness (because you want it to). The means does not change the fact. But as to faith, we note how the Lord Jesus acted so that Peter's faith would not fail, & it did not. The idea that the Lord maintains the believer's faith is thus quite reasonable. But however you interpret the means of faith/faithfulness, the inheritance is incorruptible, reserved in heaven, & you are guarded by the power of God through faith.(even this you can't get right)
Our hope is the expectation that we have that God will fulfill His promises to us. This hope is one of the 3 cardinal virtues of 1 Cor 13 and does not imply uncertainty. The revelation of all that our salvation entails is not yet revealed. Eye has not seen, ear has not heard. We are promised to freely receive all things (Rom 8). But while there is much in our salvation not yet revealed, that in no way implies that the salvation is in doubt; we just don't know everything in that box.
(the text does not say salvation is guarded, salvation is reserved in heaven) it is for, you who by the power God are guarded through faith
And that means that we are eternally secure. OSS = once saved, saved.
Is it not time to stop arguing & opposing yourself, and actually trust the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sin.
But first you must become a "His people."
this is what you say....
This is simple scripture brother why do you put a twist on it? the inheritance is reserved for "you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith" how can you say...The text does not say anything about what one has to be or do. The means of the guarding is faith or faithfulness, though it does not say whose faithfulness is meant .The epistle is addressed to... [h=3]1 Peter 1[/h]King James Version (KJV)
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works
We are guarded to a incorruptible inheritance, a salvation guarded by the power of God, though we don't yet know the greatness of its substance. The fact that much of it is not yet revealed implies no uncertainty as to receiving that salvation. That salvation is incorruptible, reserved, and guarded.
NewB, I commend you for posting scripture again, but you really must stop fighting the truth & opposing yourself. Have confidence in God's marvelous promises.
Yes, the letter is addressed to the "elect according to the foreknowledge of God," if anything, it strengthens the promised eternal security. You posted a slight mistranslation: The Greek word that ur King Jimmy has as "through" is en = in. Later when it says "through pistis," the Greek word dia is used. Dia does mean "through," different preposition in Greek.
So what does the address imply? Meditate on it. Is it saying that the elect were sanctified (set apart to be special) by the Holy Spirit resulting in the elect obeying the gospel (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved) -- so that the ultimate reason why they became Christians was God's election and His pouncing on them by the Holy Spirit? Is this another instance of "to you it has been given to believe? By while you scratch your head (or marveling) over election, consider the rest:
The fact that the means is designated (through pistis) does not in any way diminish the promise of guarded. Why do you object to being kept? Is it pride: you want to be your own Savior? You cannot. A man needs to declare spiritual bankruptcy: "God be merciful to me a sinner.
reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guardedthrough faith .
The facts are stated, wonderful promise:
the inheritance is incorruptible & reserved (the elect cannot lose their seat!) The elect are guarded, fact!
Yes the means of the guarding is specified, namely pistis, possibly God's pistis (faithfulness). But the fact that a means is specified in no way diminishes the promise of being kept.
We are guarded to a incorruptible inheritance, a salvation guarded by the power of God, though we don't yet know the greatness of its substance. The fact that much of it is not yet revealed implies no uncertainty as to receiving that salvation. That salvation is incorruptible, reserved, and guarded.
NewB, I commend you for posting scripture again, but you really must stop fighting the truth & opposing yourself. Have confidence in God's marvelous promises.
Yes, the letter is addressed to the "elect according to the foreknowledge of God," if anything, it strengthens the promised eternal security. You posted a slight mistranslation: The Greek word that ur King Jimmy has as "through" is en = in. Later when it says "through pistis," the Greek word dia is used. Dia does mean "through," different preposition in Greek.
So what does the address imply? Meditate on it. Is it saying that the elect were sanctified (set apart to be special) by the Holy Spirit resulting in the elect obeying the gospel (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved) -- so that the ultimate reason why they became Christians was God's election and His pouncing on them by the Holy Spirit? Is this another instance of "to you it has been given to believe? By while you scratch your head (or marveling) over election, consider the rest:
The fact that the means is designated (through pistis) does not in any way diminish the promise of guarded. Why do you object to being kept? Is it pride: you want to be your own Savior? You cannot. A man needs to declare spiritual bankruptcy: "God be merciful to me a sinner.
reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guardedthrough faith .
The facts are stated, wonderful promise:
the inheritance is incorruptible & reserved (the elect cannot lose their seat!) The elect are guarded, fact!
Yes the means of the guarding is specified, namely pistis, possibly God's pistis (faithfulness). But the fact that a means is specified in no way diminishes the promise of being kept.
Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works
Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God byfaith:
Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Heb 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
1 Pet 1:3ff
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith,being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ:8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he thatbelieves that Jesus is the Son of God?
Should your post be called delusion or fabrication, Cassian? Over & over salvation is offered with only one condition put on man, faith or believing ONLY. These passages were not posted to prove eternal security, but salvation by faith. So you attack a straw man here. I have posted many verses to prove eternal security. And none of those verses deny it. You are making things up which anyone can see just by looking at those passages.
It is true that salvation by faith and eternal security are sister doctrines.
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you,Who will also do it.
Cassian, what leads you to think that you ranting proves something? God's word is the proof or disproof. But the whole concept of salvation involves passivity: Christ is the Savior, the believer is the saved (passive), the savee. We are called to rest in Him.
I have not made eternal security dependent on the doctrine of predestination, which is Biblical, but Christians interpret it differently. We will understand it better bye & bye.
Eternal security depends on no election system, but is the direct teaching of the Bible, repeated over & over.
The gifts & the calling of God are irrevocable.
forenew >foreordained >called >justified >glorified. Rom 8. And since justification is by faith, we have to insert it in that chain somewhere before "justified."
How can it be that when a sinner who is vile (Romans 1-3) is by God's miracle made righteous & declared righteous (justification) that is not part of salvation? Such a person must go to Heaven. There is no way that a righteous person declared righteous would not go to Heaven. Who can condemn? It is God who justifies, God who declares righteous!
Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God byfaith:
Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Heb 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
1 Pet 1:3ff
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith,being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ:8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he thatbelieves that Jesus is the Son of God?
Should your post be called delusion or fabrication, Cassian? Over & over salvation is offered with only one condition put on man, faith or believing ONLY. These passages were not posted to prove eternal security, but salvation by faith. So you attack a straw man here. I have posted many verses to prove eternal security. And none of those verses deny it. You are making things up which anyone can see just by looking at those passages.
It is true that salvation by faith and eternal security are sister doctrines.
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you,Who will also do it.
Cassian, what leads you to think that you ranting proves something? God's word is the proof or disproof. But the whole concept of salvation involves passivity: Christ is the Savior, the believer is the saved (passive), the savee. We are called to rest in Him.
I have not made eternal security dependent on the doctrine of predestination, which is Biblical, but Christians interpret it differently. We will understand it better bye & bye.
Eternal security depends on no election system, but is the direct teaching of the Bible, repeated over & over.
The gifts & the calling of God are irrevocable.
forenew >foreordained >called >justified >glorified. Rom 8. And since justification is by faith, we have to insert it in that chain somewhere before "justified."
How can it be that when a sinner who is vile (Romans 1-3) is by God's miracle made righteous & declared righteous (justification) that is not part of salvation? Such a person must go to Heaven. There is no way that a righteous person declared righteous would not go to Heaven. Who can condemn? It is God who justifies, God who declares righteous!
Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works
I am not impressed with your response and the deviation from the original scripture quoted...you seem to forget there is more in that chapter...you are openly rejecting the teaching of God these words need no explaining....
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
I am not impressed with your response and the deviation from the original scripture quoted...you seem to forget there is more in that chapter...you are openly rejecting the teaching of God these words need no explaining....
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works
Originally Posted by Atwood
We are guarded to a incorruptible inheritance, a salvation guarded by the power of God, though we don't yet know the greatness of its substance. The fact that much of it is not yet revealed implies no uncertainty as to receiving that salvation. That salvation is incorruptible, reserved, and guarded.
NewB, I commend you for posting scripture again, but you really must stop fighting the truth & opposing yourself. Have confidence in God's marvelous promises.
Yes, the letter is addressed to the "elect according to the foreknowledge of God," if anything, it strengthens the promised eternal security. You posted a slight mistranslation: The Greek word that ur King Jimmy has as "through" is en = in. Later when it says "through pistis," the Greek word dia is used. Dia does mean "through," different preposition in Greek.
So what does the address imply? Meditate on it. Is it saying that the elect were sanctified (set apart to be special) by the Holy Spirit resulting in the elect obeying the gospel (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved) -- so that the ultimate reason why they became Christians was God's election and His pouncing on them by the Holy Spirit? Is this another instance of "to you it has been given to believe? By while you scratch your head (or marveling) over election, consider the rest:
The fact that the means is designated (through pistis) does not in any way diminish the promise of guarded. Why do you object to being kept? Is it pride: you want to be your own Savior? You cannot. A man needs to declare spiritual bankruptcy: "God be merciful to me a sinner.
reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guardedthrough faith .
The facts are stated, wonderful promise:
the inheritance is incorruptible & reserved (the elect cannot lose their seat!) The elect are guarded, fact!
Yes the means of the guarding is specified, namely pistis, possibly God's pistis (faithfulness). But the fact that a means is specified in no way diminishes the promise of being kept.
NewB, I have read the Bible through over and over for many years. Right now I have been rapidly reading through entire epistles to post evidence. No, you libel me, I do not reject God's teaching. And if it needs no explaining, then why don't you stop commenting & just quote the Bible?
You didn't quote any original scripture. You quoted the King Jimmy, an excellent version, but with flaws. Original language for which I will add some translation:
Εὐλογητὸς ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ [blessed be the God and Father]
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὁ κατὰ τὸ πολὺ αὐτοῦ ἔλεος ἀναγεννήσας ἡμᾶς [begat up again]
εἰς ἐλπίδα ζῶσαν δι᾿ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐκ νεκρῶν,
4 εἰς κληρονομίαν ἄφθαρτον [to an inheritance inccoruptible]
καὶ ἀμίαντον [and undefiled / not to be defiled]
καὶ ἀμάραντον [and not fading away],
τετηρημένην ἐν οὐρανοῖς [reserved in heaven]
εἰς ὑμᾶς [for you]
5 τοὺς [the ones]
ἐν δυνάμει θεοῦ [in the power of God]
φρουρουμένους [being guarded]
διὰ πίστεως [through faith]
εἰς σωτηρίαν [unto salvation]
ἑτοίμην ἀποκαλυφθῆναι ἐν καιρῷ ἐσχάτῳ. 6 ἐν ᾧ ἀγαλλιᾶσθε, ὀλίγον ἄρτι εἰ δέον [ἐστὶν] λυπηθέντες ἐν ποικίλοις πειρασμοῖς, 7 ἵνα τὸ δοκίμιον ὑμῶν τῆς πίστεως πολυτιμότερον χρυσίου τοῦ ἀπολλυμένου διὰ πυρὸς δὲ δοκιμαζομένου, εὑρεθῇ εἰς ἔπαινον καὶ δόξαν καὶ τιμὴν ἐν ἀποκαλύψει Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ 8 ὃν οὐκ ἰδόντες ἀγαπᾶτε, εἰς ὃν ἄρτι μὴ ὁρῶντες πιστεύοντες δὲ ἀγαλλιᾶσθε χαρᾷ ἀνεκλαλήτῳ καὶ δεδοξασμένῃ 9 κομιζόμενοι
τὸ τέλος τῆς πίστεως [ὑμῶν] [the end of {your} faith
σωτηρίαν ψυχῶν [salvation of souls].
ASV (1901) literal translation:
"begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."
Here it is. Believe it or suffer the consequences like the Israelites who refused the 2 good spies & believed the delusions of the 10 bad spies at Kadesh-Barnea. They did not enter the promised land for lack of faith in the Lord. Why continue wandering in the wilderness, disbelieving God's promises?
an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation
Originally Posted by Atwood
We are guarded to a incorruptible inheritance, a salvation guarded by the power of God, though we don't yet know the greatness of its substance. The fact that much of it is not yet revealed implies no uncertainty as to receiving that salvation. That salvation is incorruptible, reserved, and guarded.
NewB, I commend you for posting scripture again, but you really must stop fighting the truth & opposing yourself. Have confidence in God's marvelous promises.
Yes, the letter is addressed to the "elect according to the foreknowledge of God," if anything, it strengthens the promised eternal security. You posted a slight mistranslation: The Greek word that ur King Jimmy has as "through" is en = in. Later when it says "through pistis," the Greek word dia is used. Dia does mean "through," different preposition in Greek.
So what does the address imply? Meditate on it. Is it saying that the elect were sanctified (set apart to be special) by the Holy Spirit resulting in the elect obeying the gospel (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved) -- so that the ultimate reason why they became Christians was God's election and His pouncing on them by the Holy Spirit? Is this another instance of "to you it has been given to believe? By while you scratch your head (or marveling) over election, consider the rest:
The fact that the means is designated (through pistis) does not in any way diminish the promise of guarded. Why do you object to being kept? Is it pride: you want to be your own Savior? You cannot. A man needs to declare spiritual bankruptcy: "God be merciful to me a sinner.
reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guardedthrough faith .
The facts are stated, wonderful promise:
the inheritance is incorruptible & reserved (the elect cannot lose their seat!) The elect are guarded, fact!
Yes the means of the guarding is specified, namely pistis, possibly God's pistis (faithfulness). But the fact that a means is specified in no way diminishes the promise of being kept.
NewB, I have read the Bible through over and over for many years. Right now I have been rapidly reading through entire epistles to post evidence. No, you libel me, I do not reject God's teaching. And if it needs no explaining, then why don't you stop commenting & just quote the Bible?
You didn't quote any original scripture. You quoted the King Jimmy, an excellent version, but with flaws. Original language for which I will add some translation:
Εὐλογητὸς ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ [blessed be the God and Father]
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὁ κατὰ τὸ πολὺ αὐτοῦ ἔλεος ἀναγεννήσας ἡμᾶς [begat up again]
εἰς ἐλπίδα ζῶσαν δι᾿ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐκ νεκρῶν,
4 εἰς κληρονομίαν ἄφθαρτον [to an inheritance inccoruptible]
καὶ ἀμίαντον [and undefiled / not to be defiled]
καὶ ἀμάραντον [and not fading away],
τετηρημένην ἐν οὐρανοῖς [reserved in heaven]
εἰς ὑμᾶς [for you]
5 τοὺς [the ones]
ἐν δυνάμει θεοῦ [in the power of God]
φρουρουμένους [being guarded]
διὰ πίστεως [through faith]
εἰς σωτηρίαν [unto salvation]
ἑτοίμην ἀποκαλυφθῆναι ἐν καιρῷ ἐσχάτῳ. 6 ἐν ᾧ ἀγαλλιᾶσθε, ὀλίγον ἄρτι εἰ δέον [ἐστὶν] λυπηθέντες ἐν ποικίλοις πειρασμοῖς, 7 ἵνα τὸ δοκίμιον ὑμῶν τῆς πίστεως πολυτιμότερον χρυσίου τοῦ ἀπολλυμένου διὰ πυρὸς δὲ δοκιμαζομένου, εὑρεθῇ εἰς ἔπαινον καὶ δόξαν καὶ τιμὴν ἐν ἀποκαλύψει Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ 8 ὃν οὐκ ἰδόντες ἀγαπᾶτε, εἰς ὃν ἄρτι μὴ ὁρῶντες πιστεύοντες δὲ ἀγαλλιᾶσθε χαρᾷ ἀνεκλαλήτῳ καὶ δεδοξασμένῃ 9 κομιζόμενοι
τὸ τέλος τῆς πίστεως [ὑμῶν] [the end of {your} faith
σωτηρίαν ψυχῶν [salvation of souls].
ASV (1901) literal translation:
"begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."
Here it is. Believe it or suffer the consequences like the Israelites who refused the 2 good spies & believed the delusions of the 10 bad spies at Kadesh-Barnea. They did not enter the promised land for lack of faith in the Lord. Why continue wandering in the wilderness, disbelieving God's promises?
an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation
Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works
same same who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time
receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls
here it is later in the chapter he is telling you how to live the life of faith...you may want to translate these too...
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; (No OSS,or ES here)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Originally Posted by Atwood
We are guarded to a incorruptible inheritance, a salvation guarded by the power of God, though we don't yet know the greatness of its substance. The fact that much of it is not yet revealed implies no uncertainty as to receiving that salvation. That salvation is incorruptible, reserved, and guarded.
NewB, I commend you for posting scripture again, but you really must stop fighting the truth & opposing yourself. Have confidence in God's marvelous promises.
Yes, the letter is addressed to the "elect according to the foreknowledge of God," if anything, it strengthens the promised eternal security. You posted a slight mistranslation: The Greek word that ur King Jimmy has as "through" is en = in. Later when it says "through pistis," the Greek word dia is used. Dia does mean "through," different preposition in Greek.
So what does the address imply? Meditate on it. Is it saying that the elect were sanctified (set apart to be special) by the Holy Spirit resulting in the elect obeying the gospel (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved) -- so that the ultimate reason why they became Christians was God's election and His pouncing on them by the Holy Spirit? Is this another instance of "to you it has been given to believe? By while you scratch your head (or marveling) over election, consider the rest:
The fact that the means is designated (through pistis) does not in any way diminish the promise of guarded. Why do you object to being kept? Is it pride: you want to be your own Savior? You cannot. A man needs to declare spiritual bankruptcy: "God be merciful to me a sinner.
reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guardedthrough faith .
The facts are stated, wonderful promise:
the inheritance is incorruptible & reserved (the elect cannot lose their seat!) The elect are guarded, fact!
Yes the means of the guarding is specified, namely pistis, possibly God's pistis (faithfulness). But the fact that a means is specified in no way diminishes the promise of being kept.
because you keep trying to twist scripture to suit your doctrine but it say the same thing..even if the first faith is God faith as you claim the second faith is your faith for the salvation of your soul.
ASV (1901) literal translation:
We are guarded to a incorruptible inheritance, a salvation guarded by the power of God, though we don't yet know the greatness of its substance. The fact that much of it is not yet revealed implies no uncertainty as to receiving that salvation. That salvation is incorruptible, reserved, and guarded.
NewB, I commend you for posting scripture again, but you really must stop fighting the truth & opposing yourself. Have confidence in God's marvelous promises.
Yes, the letter is addressed to the "elect according to the foreknowledge of God," if anything, it strengthens the promised eternal security. You posted a slight mistranslation: The Greek word that ur King Jimmy has as "through" is en = in. Later when it says "through pistis," the Greek word dia is used. Dia does mean "through," different preposition in Greek.
So what does the address imply? Meditate on it. Is it saying that the elect were sanctified (set apart to be special) by the Holy Spirit resulting in the elect obeying the gospel (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved) -- so that the ultimate reason why they became Christians was God's election and His pouncing on them by the Holy Spirit? Is this another instance of "to you it has been given to believe? By while you scratch your head (or marveling) over election, consider the rest:
The fact that the means is designated (through pistis) does not in any way diminish the promise of guarded. Why do you object to being kept? Is it pride: you want to be your own Savior? You cannot. A man needs to declare spiritual bankruptcy: "God be merciful to me a sinner.
reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guardedthrough faith .
The facts are stated, wonderful promise:
the inheritance is incorruptible & reserved (the elect cannot lose their seat!) The elect are guarded, fact!
Yes the means of the guarding is specified, namely pistis, possibly God's pistis (faithfulness). But the fact that a means is specified in no way diminishes the promise of being kept.
because you keep trying to twist scripture to suit your doctrine but it say the same thing..even if the first faith is God faith as you claim the second faith is your faith for the salvation of your soul.
ASV (1901) literal translation:
receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls
here it is later in the chapter he is telling you how to live the life of faith...you may want to translate these too...
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; (No OSS,or ES here)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works
Atwood,
I and a couple of others are the only ones that are actually teaching what scripture means. You are ranting about eternal security which has never been a teaching of scripture. You are going all over the map trying to find something that might give your view some validity, but alas you run dry every time. You have pretty much descredited all other scripture just to isolated your couple of texts that you think supports eternal security.
Salvation is passive if it is in regards to what Christ did for us. Man cannot save himself from death and sin, which is why we needed Christ. But all men, the world has been saved by Christ. He reconciled the world back to God. He made all men righteous, which does not mean salvation. It means to be put into a correct relationship with God. This is why our faith justifies, it places us in a correct relationship with God so that we can begin to attain to eternal life. Eternal life is all about man working with God. It is the whole purpose of our existence and you have this errant notion that we are saved simply by believing at one moment of time. Nothing exists in scripture that hints or states this.
Admittedly you have a very confused theology. But OSAS, ES, or what you now call OSS is ONLY connected by the Reformed position of election/predestination. There can be no ES without predestination. Since the REformed postion of predestination is also not found in scripture, so is the fate of OSS, ES or OSAS.
These are historical facts which you have not refuted and cannot refute.
so they are, but the issue has never been what God promises but what can man promise. We are speaking about a mutual, covanantal, synergistic relationship which depends on man's faith. YOur constant use of Rom 8:29-30 does not support ES either. This whole discourse is not even about salvation necessarily. It is Pauls comfort speack to the Christians in Rome who were being persecuted and thought that God had forsaken them. Paul then gives his summary of God's love for those that love Him.
It is part of salvation but is NOT salvation, just as repentance is part, but not salvation, just as baptism is part, but not salvation. being declared righteous does not constitute salvation. It merely puts one into a correct relationship with God. Just as Christ reconciled the world back to God, meaning He put the world back into a correct relationship with God. More precisely, He gave life to the world which is what Rom 5:18 states, as well as I Cor 15:22.
yes, true, but it also has the condition of being continuous and active. This is the issue here. YOu have this notion that man is saved finitely upon faith only, a one time mental affirmation and that decision cannot be changed. Whereas, scripture, most of the NT is written about that decision changing. Constant warnings not to lose faith. Loss of faith will forfeit the inheritance of eternal life. NOthing could be more clear, but with your blinders on, you have bypassed and dismissed most of the NT.
ES ONLY exists in the REformed interpretation of election/predestination. ES does not exist in scripture when interpreted as it has always been understood from the beginning.
This entire thread. In EVERY single POST YOU MADE IN REPLY TO THE OPPOSITION they have presented the Biblcial facts that a believer can lose faith. YOu have redefined faith, what constitutes a believer, what even constitutes an apostate, and every twist imaginable to dismiss scripture so that your false view is left standing isolated from all of scripture.
Simply putting your trust in Christ is NOT salvation either. It includes all the responses in this thread that shows that a believer's faith must be active, he must endure, he must be transformed into Christ likeness. If he at any time decides that the relationship with Christ is not suitable for him, he can leave. Scripture gives many examples of believers leaving, many exhortations to remain.
You have discarded them all, redefined them, so that most of scripture becomes meaningless verbiage, so that your isolated texts stand alone. Even at that, many of them have conditions built right into the text that you have isolated.
Atwood,
I and a couple of others are the only ones that are actually teaching what scripture means. You are ranting about eternal security which has never been a teaching of scripture. You are going all over the map trying to find something that might give your view some validity, but alas you run dry every time. You have pretty much descredited all other scripture just to isolated your couple of texts that you think supports eternal security.
Salvation is passive if it is in regards to what Christ did for us. Man cannot save himself from death and sin, which is why we needed Christ. But all men, the world has been saved by Christ. He reconciled the world back to God. He made all men righteous, which does not mean salvation. It means to be put into a correct relationship with God. This is why our faith justifies, it places us in a correct relationship with God so that we can begin to attain to eternal life. Eternal life is all about man working with God. It is the whole purpose of our existence and you have this errant notion that we are saved simply by believing at one moment of time. Nothing exists in scripture that hints or states this.
Admittedly you have a very confused theology. But OSAS, ES, or what you now call OSS is ONLY connected by the Reformed position of election/predestination. There can be no ES without predestination. Since the REformed postion of predestination is also not found in scripture, so is the fate of OSS, ES or OSAS.
These are historical facts which you have not refuted and cannot refute.
so they are, but the issue has never been what God promises but what can man promise. We are speaking about a mutual, covanantal, synergistic relationship which depends on man's faith. YOur constant use of Rom 8:29-30 does not support ES either. This whole discourse is not even about salvation necessarily. It is Pauls comfort speack to the Christians in Rome who were being persecuted and thought that God had forsaken them. Paul then gives his summary of God's love for those that love Him.
It is part of salvation but is NOT salvation, just as repentance is part, but not salvation, just as baptism is part, but not salvation. being declared righteous does not constitute salvation. It merely puts one into a correct relationship with God. Just as Christ reconciled the world back to God, meaning He put the world back into a correct relationship with God. More precisely, He gave life to the world which is what Rom 5:18 states, as well as I Cor 15:22.
yes, true, but it also has the condition of being continuous and active. This is the issue here. YOu have this notion that man is saved finitely upon faith only, a one time mental affirmation and that decision cannot be changed. Whereas, scripture, most of the NT is written about that decision changing. Constant warnings not to lose faith. Loss of faith will forfeit the inheritance of eternal life. NOthing could be more clear, but with your blinders on, you have bypassed and dismissed most of the NT.
ES ONLY exists in the REformed interpretation of election/predestination. ES does not exist in scripture when interpreted as it has always been understood from the beginning.
This entire thread. In EVERY single POST YOU MADE IN REPLY TO THE OPPOSITION they have presented the Biblcial facts that a believer can lose faith. YOu have redefined faith, what constitutes a believer, what even constitutes an apostate, and every twist imaginable to dismiss scripture so that your false view is left standing isolated from all of scripture.
Simply putting your trust in Christ is NOT salvation either. It includes all the responses in this thread that shows that a believer's faith must be active, he must endure, he must be transformed into Christ likeness. If he at any time decides that the relationship with Christ is not suitable for him, he can leave. Scripture gives many examples of believers leaving, many exhortations to remain.
You have discarded them all, redefined them, so that most of scripture becomes meaningless verbiage, so that your isolated texts stand alone. Even at that, many of them have conditions built right into the text that you have isolated.
Free At Last. Thank God Almighty I'm Free At Last
Free at Last,
Free at last,
Thank God Almighty I'm free at last.
Do you know that song? I think a spiritual:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0FWliVoLOg
A very moving song.
If the Son shall make you free,
You shall be free indeed.
Now how could that be true if somehow you ended up in the Lake of Fire?
Free indeed implies eternal security.
OSS = once saved, Saved!
let's add
OFF = once free, free!
Free at Last,
Free at last,
Thank God Almighty I'm free at last.
Do you know that song? I think a spiritual:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0FWliVoLOg
A very moving song.
If the Son shall make you free,
You shall be free indeed.
Now how could that be true if somehow you ended up in the Lake of Fire?
Free indeed implies eternal security.
OSS = once saved, Saved!
let's add
OFF = once free, free!
Re: Eternal Security Goes Along w/ Salvation by Faith, Not Works
ATwood posted:
The gifts & the calling of God are irrevocable.
forenew >foreordained >called >justified >glorified. Rom 8. And since justification is by faith, we have to insert it in that chain somewhere before "justified."
How can it be that when a sinner who is vile (Romans 1-3) is by God's miracle made righteous & declared righteous (justification) that is not part of salvation? Such a person must go to Heaven. There is no way that a righteous person declared righteous would not go to Heaven. Who can condemn? It is God who justifies, God who declares righteous!
In this area, we deal not with possibilities but Bible facts. Men are saved through faith, and they are eternally secure. They trust the Savior, & He delivers His promise of eternal life.
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
"whosoever believes . . . eternal life."
You cannot backquote where I ever discarded faith, but argued for it posting many scriptures; same with eternal security. Also, I have not argued for eternal security off the doctrine of predestination, but presented scriptures for consideration for anyone who cares to ponder the matter. Persons can believe eternal security & justification by faith without thinking that God caused them to believe. We don't have to solve the problem of predestination to conclude eternal security.
My statement.the clear teaching that a believer can lose faith,
your response.....
As so often, dear Cassian you just say things. Where is your proof of that one?
You just go on ranting, not quoting the Bible & proving. Anyone who has been reading this thread can see that there are not just a few isolated verses, and that you speak falsehood.
And if Christ made all men righteous, then the Bible is false, for it presents quite a different picture of depravity. So you don't want a verse isolated? Try Romans 1-3:
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.
And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful: who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.
Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things. And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things. And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; . . . .
But if our unrighteousness commendeth the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who visiteth with wrath? (I speak after the manner of men.) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? and why not (as we are slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say), Let us do evil, that good may come? whose condemnation is just.
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God;
They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit:
The poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:
ATwood posted:
The gifts & the calling of God are irrevocable.
forenew >foreordained >called >justified >glorified. Rom 8. And since justification is by faith, we have to insert it in that chain somewhere before "justified."
How can it be that when a sinner who is vile (Romans 1-3) is by God's miracle made righteous & declared righteous (justification) that is not part of salvation? Such a person must go to Heaven. There is no way that a righteous person declared righteous would not go to Heaven. Who can condemn? It is God who justifies, God who declares righteous!
In this area, we deal not with possibilities but Bible facts. Men are saved through faith, and they are eternally secure. They trust the Savior, & He delivers His promise of eternal life.
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
"whosoever believes . . . eternal life."
You cannot backquote where I ever discarded faith, but argued for it posting many scriptures; same with eternal security. Also, I have not argued for eternal security off the doctrine of predestination, but presented scriptures for consideration for anyone who cares to ponder the matter. Persons can believe eternal security & justification by faith without thinking that God caused them to believe. We don't have to solve the problem of predestination to conclude eternal security.
My statement.the clear teaching that a believer can lose faith,
your response.....
As so often, dear Cassian you just say things. Where is your proof of that one?
You just go on ranting, not quoting the Bible & proving. Anyone who has been reading this thread can see that there are not just a few isolated verses, and that you speak falsehood.
And if Christ made all men righteous, then the Bible is false, for it presents quite a different picture of depravity. So you don't want a verse isolated? Try Romans 1-3:
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.
And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful: who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.
Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things. And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things. And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; . . . .
But if our unrighteousness commendeth the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who visiteth with wrath? (I speak after the manner of men.) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? and why not (as we are slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say), Let us do evil, that good may come? whose condemnation is just.
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God;
They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit:
The poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:
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Good evening, Ricky,
How's Lucy? Or should I ask, how are the rest of the Nelson family? I have a revision of the ASV (1901) done in rough draft; this is a long project I have been working on.
I hope this scripture answers your question:
exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints. - Jude
2 Cor 5
Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest unto God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences. We are not again commending ourselves unto you, but speak as giving you occasion of glorying on our behalf, that ye may have wherewith to answer them that glory in appearance, and not in heart.
For whether we are beside ourselves, it is unto God; or whether we are of sober mind, it is unto you. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died; and he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again. Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more. Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.
But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God. Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.
And working together with him we entreat also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain (for he saith,
At an acceptable time I hearkened unto thee,
And in a day of salvation did I succor thee:
behold, now is the acceptable time; behold, now is the day of salvation):
How's Lucy? Or should I ask, how are the rest of the Nelson family? I have a revision of the ASV (1901) done in rough draft; this is a long project I have been working on.
I hope this scripture answers your question:
exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints. - Jude
2 Cor 5
Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest unto God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences. We are not again commending ourselves unto you, but speak as giving you occasion of glorying on our behalf, that ye may have wherewith to answer them that glory in appearance, and not in heart.
For whether we are beside ourselves, it is unto God; or whether we are of sober mind, it is unto you. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died; and he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again. Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more. Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.
But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God. Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.
And working together with him we entreat also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain (for he saith,
At an acceptable time I hearkened unto thee,
And in a day of salvation did I succor thee:
behold, now is the acceptable time; behold, now is the day of salvation):
The Reformed & Calvin Canard
I don't recall any of those defending Biblical salvation here with Eternal Security, ever saying one should believe it because of Calvin or the Protestant Reformers. Yet some seem to think they gain mileage by bringing in Calvin or Reformed Theology, as if this were a valid argument & would persuade or shame the audience here:
"Calvin taught eternal security,
therefore one should be ashamed of believing eternal security and repent; for Calvin is a stinker."
Those of you who take this turn of argument act like you were addressing a convention of papists or Eastern Orthodoxies. That is not where you are, & it gains you no points in this audience.
On the other hand, if you have Bible verses to prove things, that might prove something to the audience here. But just ranting and assuming that your denomination is true and what you say must be believed because you say it, gets you no where.
The entrance of God's Word brings light.
Try proving the way the Lord Jesus did. He did not base any arguments on religious tradition. He quoted the Bible & settled all arguments with "It is written!"
I don't recall any of those defending Biblical salvation here with Eternal Security, ever saying one should believe it because of Calvin or the Protestant Reformers. Yet some seem to think they gain mileage by bringing in Calvin or Reformed Theology, as if this were a valid argument & would persuade or shame the audience here:
"Calvin taught eternal security,
therefore one should be ashamed of believing eternal security and repent; for Calvin is a stinker."
Those of you who take this turn of argument act like you were addressing a convention of papists or Eastern Orthodoxies. That is not where you are, & it gains you no points in this audience.
On the other hand, if you have Bible verses to prove things, that might prove something to the audience here. But just ranting and assuming that your denomination is true and what you say must be believed because you say it, gets you no where.
The entrance of God's Word brings light.
Try proving the way the Lord Jesus did. He did not base any arguments on religious tradition. He quoted the Bible & settled all arguments with "It is written!"
Guaranteed perfection; Called to Eternal Glory
"And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after that ye have suffered a little while, shall himself perfect, establish, strengthen you. To him be the dominion for ever and ever. Amen." 1 Pet 5:10
Grace, unmerited, even contrary to merit favor. Grace is surely the context of eternal security. The Lord puts the Christian in a place of safety and guards the Christian, securing his irrevocable promise of eternal life. The believer is not just called to a 15 minute salvation with a chance at hanging on after that. The believer is really saved.
The calling is to eternal glory.
There it is, promised perfection. The God of grace shall Himself perfect and establish the believer. It is all of God's grace.
---------------
BTW, there seems to be this "isolated verse" sneer, as if it were a sin to quote an isolated verse. But that is just what the Lord Jesus did in debate as recorded. So, if He can quote one verse alone, why should not I? I mean do you really want to read a chapter every time someone gives a proof text? The sceptic is free to pick up his Bible like a noble Beroean and verify or debunk from context.
"And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after that ye have suffered a little while, shall himself perfect, establish, strengthen you. To him be the dominion for ever and ever. Amen." 1 Pet 5:10
Grace, unmerited, even contrary to merit favor. Grace is surely the context of eternal security. The Lord puts the Christian in a place of safety and guards the Christian, securing his irrevocable promise of eternal life. The believer is not just called to a 15 minute salvation with a chance at hanging on after that. The believer is really saved.
The calling is to eternal glory.
There it is, promised perfection. The God of grace shall Himself perfect and establish the believer. It is all of God's grace.
---------------
BTW, there seems to be this "isolated verse" sneer, as if it were a sin to quote an isolated verse. But that is just what the Lord Jesus did in debate as recorded. So, if He can quote one verse alone, why should not I? I mean do you really want to read a chapter every time someone gives a proof text? The sceptic is free to pick up his Bible like a noble Beroean and verify or debunk from context.