BEWARE the Lawkeepers

[john316forall]

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to COMMAND them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore WHY TEMPT YE GOD, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which NEITHER OUR FATHERS NOR WE WERE ABLE TO BEAR?

Act 15:11 But we believe THAT THROUGH THE GRACE OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WE SHALL BE SAVED, even as they.

 

[Inquisitor]

Agreed, John. I suppose that no lawkeepers will actually attempt to answer this as due to their "specialty" they probably didn't even know that such a passage existed in the Bible. No big surprise there. Since many of them feel themselves to be beyond correction, I hope that some of those who are being deceived by them will see this and find their way back to the truth.

 

[john316forall]

Mixing faith with law, something the Bible "repeatedly" warns against.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Interesting that those who mix law-keeping with faith are considered "bewitched!"

 

[Inquisitor]

Seeing as they rebel against God by their teaching and rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft it certainly isn't a far stretch.

 

[RedTent]

For some historic background for this: Before Christ when a gentile like Ruth accepted God, they became Jews. They went through a naturalization ceremony like we do today when we change countries. Then, lots of people accepted God. The God of love and justice was attractive to many. Some became Jews and some were just called God Fearers. Lots of the God Fearers weren't serious and soon went back to their old ways. So the Rabbis got together and made some rules for them. Documents that have been found say there were 18 of these rules, and being physically circumcised was the main rule. The idea was that if you were a gentile you were a pagan, if you accepted God, you became a Jew.

When Christ came the veil was split, the barrier between Jew and Gentile was gone. Paul was sent to bring the gospel to the gentile. But the Jews told him He had to teach them to be Jews, it was important.

There was a lot of gossip about it, you know how men on street corners hash over everything. They called it the Law of Moses, and some just said it was circumcision, the main thing Jews wanted. Some called the Jews those with those weird things they did.

The rest of the story is in Acts and the letters. How the council handled it, saying Paul could teach gospel without the way Jews did things as long as the gentiles could go to synagogue to learn about God, and you know the things they had to do to do that.

A group of the Jews were so upset about it they voted to have Paul executed with stones. The Roman court stepped in and found he wasn't guilty. Then the Jewish court went over his trial, and also found him not guilty.

Scripture said that true circumcision was of the heart, true clean eating was of the heart, and so on. Paul was teaching these things. Often, we still accuse him of teaching against Moses, but two courts cleared him of those charges, we should, too.

The story of all this is mostly in the book of Acts, with what people had to do to join Jews sprinkled through the Old Testament. I reads like a novel but it has basic truths important to our life.

 

[Atwood]

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to COMMAND them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore WHY TEMPT YE GOD, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which NEITHER OUR FATHERS NOR WE WERE ABLE TO BEAR?

Act 15:11 But we believe THAT THROUGH THE GRACE OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WE SHALL BE SAVED, even as they.

ITA. I won't repeat Paul's comment on what he advises them to do to themselves from Galatians.

 

[gotime]

Agreed, John. I suppose that no lawkeepers will actually attempt to answer this as due to their "specialty" they probably didn't even know that such a passage existed in the Bible. No big surprise there. Since many of them feel themselves to be beyond correction, I hope that some of those who are being deceived by them will see this and find their way back to the truth.

What was the point of saying this?

The same could be said by the lawkeepers (as you term it) about people in your position. what does it accomplish?

If your read other threads this very text has been addressed by both sides many times.

 

[crossnote]

Documents that have been found say there were 18 of these rules, and being physically circumcised was the main rule. The idea was that if you were a gentile you were a pagan, if you accepted God, you became a Jew.

When Christ came the veil was split, the barrier between Jew and Gentile was gone. Paul was sent to bring the gospel to the gentile. But the Jews told him He had to teach them to be Jews, it was important.

.

C'mon RedTent, the rule of circumcision for Gentiles was embedded in the Mosaic Covenant...not "some documents that have been found".

But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
(Exo 12:44)


And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
(Exo 12:48)


There was no partaking for the Gentile unless he was circumcised.

 

[Inquisitor]

If you remember the courts of Paul's day sent many Christians to their deaths. We are to rely upon the Word of God not the institutions of men and their decisions about what Paul may or may not have "had right" about Judaism. Paul himself makes it clear the Judaism and everything about it has been eclipsed by the New Testament in Christ's blood. It is "better" than that which came first. Do not try to put new wine into old bottles, or mend old rags with new cloth. The transition has happened and is clearly described in Romans 9-11 as well as the book of Acts and numerous other places....Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
---------------------------
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This is not to mean that we all became Jews, Abraham was before the law and that point is argued. We are "jews" only by way of comparison i.e. we are the people of God through faith. This has nothing to do with the Law as it came before the Law. If one is looking at the "history" one should use the historical figure the Bible chooses... Abraham.

 

[john316forall]

The entire book of Galatians is eye-opening in regard to the Law; however, Chapter 3 really hits it home, declaring how long the law was in effect and that it had a definite end (TIL the promised seed should come [Jesus Christ] Gal. 3:19), that the purpose of the law "was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ' (Gal. 3:24), then declaring that 'after faith has come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A SCHOOLMASTER.

Let's not forget, this is "Paul" speaking here, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Karraster]

Mixing faith with law, something the Bible "repeatedly" warns against.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Interesting that those who mix law-keeping with faith are considered "bewitched!"

The ancient Greeks were apparently quite superstitious so they would understand "the evil eye",/ or "bewitched", but I'm not sure Paul meant it literally, rather to underscore their clouded thinking. Never, not even in the Old Testament/Torah was it possible to have salvation without faith. Obeying God's instructions is good and right, however it is not possible to deserve being a citizen in the Kingdom of Almighty on our own merit. We needed a perfect Lamb to take away the sins of the world!

 

[gotime]

You have a problem actually:

It is written:

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1. Sin is breaking the law.

It is written:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

1. Sin is breaking the law
2. If you sin you are a slave to sin and do not abide in the house forever.

It is written:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1. Sin is breaking the law
2. If you sin you are a slave to sin and do not abide in the house forever.
3. we must be Born again or we will not enter the kingdom of God.

It is written:

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1. Sin is breaking the law
2. If you sin you are a slave to sin and do not abide in the house forever.
3. we must be Born again or we will not enter the kingdom of God.
4. Those who are born of God do not commit sin.

It is written:

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.





1. Sin is breaking the law
2. If you sin you are a slave to sin and do not abide in the house forever.
3. we must be Born again or we will not enter the kingdom of God.
4. Those who are born of God do not commit sin.
5. Eternal life is knowing God.

It is written:

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.





1. Sin is breaking the law
2. If you sin you are a slave to sin and do not abide in the house forever.
3. we must be Born again or we will not enter the kingdom of God.
4. Those who are born of God do not commit sin.
5. Eternal life is knowing God.
6. If you do not keep his commandments then you do not know him.

It is written:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

1. Sin is breaking the law
2. If you sin you are a slave to sin and do not abide in the house forever.

3. we must be Born again or we will not enter the kingdom of God.
4. Those who are born of God do not commit sin.

5. Eternal life is knowing God.
6. If you do not keep his commandments then you do not know him.

7. Only the Doers of the law will be Justified.

It is written:

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.



1. Sin is breaking the law
2. If you sin you are a slave to sin and do not abide in the house forever.

3. we must be Born again or we will not enter the kingdom of God.
4. Those who are born of God do not commit sin.

5. Eternal life is knowing God.
6. If you do not keep his commandments then you do not know him.

7. Only the Doers of the law will be Justified.
8. We are Justified by Faith which means some how Faith in Jesus enables me to be a doer of the law.

one could keep going. The real question is Did Jesus save us from the power of the Devil?

It is written:

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.



The Just shall live by Faith. you can obey the law/10 commandments perfectly if you have Faith in Jesus and His Righteousness.

 

[Inquisitor]

What was the point of saying this?

The same could be said by the lawkeepers (as you term it) about people in your position. what does it accomplish?

If your read other threads this very text has been addressed by both sides many times.

Well, I would think my point is obvious...Lawkeepeers do not rightly divide the word of truth. They are brought into a deliberately obtuse position refusing to accept new testimony that has been clearly written. While the same thing could be said, the "lawkeeper" has no ability to demonstrably prove his position. The Word is not of a private interpretation and even in a very short discussion it becomes obvious who is believing the Word and who is trying to bring people back into bondage. The Bible isn't full of all these "different positions" all of which can be equally asserted. It is a clear concise narrative of what Christ has done throughout man's history. People who try to make one part of it more important than another are wresting the scriptures and teaching heresy. Hence in light of Scripture, the lawkeeper is no different than a Pharisee, regardless of how loud they shout or abuse others. They have a scripturally unsubstantiated position even though they attempt to use many clever and deceitful devices to divert the issue away from this. I hope at least that THIS post was more obvious about why I said what I said.

 

[gotime]

Of course the law is finished in Christ, The Law pointed to Jesus.

The sacrifices pointed to Jesus the true sacrifice.
The Temple pointed to The heavenly Temple.
The priesthood pointed to Jesus our High priest.
The 10 commandments showed us our sin and our helpless inability to keep Gods law. Jesus comes into our heart and the fruit of this is perfect lining up with the law.

Its all about Jesus, everything. When we say you must keep the law we are not saying try harder. We are pointing out the fruit of faith in Jesus in you the hope of glory. not by works but by faith.

Keeping the law is a simple inevitable result of true Faith in Jesus and his indwelling Grace through the Spirit.

 

[crossnote]

The Just shall live by Faith. you can obey the law/10 commandments perfectly if you have Faith in Jesus and His Righteousness.

You may be the one with a problem...Which Book, Chapter and Verse please?

 

[gotime]

Well, I would think my point is obvious...Lawkeepeers do not rightly divide the word of truth. They are brought into a deliberately obtuse position refusing to accept new testimony that has been clearly written. While the same thing could be said, the "lawkeeper" has no ability to demonstrably prove his position. The Word is not of a private interpretation and even in a very short discussion it becomes obvious who is believing the Word and who is trying to bring people back into bondage. The Bible isn't full of all these "different positions" all of which can be equally asserted. It is a clear concise narrative of what Christ has done throughout man's history. People who try to make one part of it more important than another are wresting the scriptures and teaching heresy. Hence in light of Scripture, the lawkeeper is no different than a Pharisee, regardless of how loud they shout or abuse others. They have a scripturally unsubstantiated position even though they attempt to use many clever and deceitful devices to divert the issue away from this. I hope at least that THIS post was more obvious about why I said what I said.

This has been something I have thought about, because person A says what you said about person B, Yet Person B says the same thing about person A.

I agree the bible does not give two different points of view. but simply saying what you have will change nothing because the other side may think that you are the one who will not listen and interprets wrong. Can't really change it.

 

[Inquisitor]

This is the same problem with all lawkeepers... they do not distinguish between the Law of Moses and the laws of Christ. These two things are not the same thing in purpose or articulation, but in order to know that one would have to stop obsessing over trying to control people with the O.T. and start reading and believing the N.T. Hard to do for some folks.

 

[RedTent]

C'mon RedTent, the rule of circumcision for Gentiles was embedded in the Mosaic Covenant...not "some documents that have been found".

But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
(Exo 12:44)

And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
(Exo 12:48)

There was no partaking for the Gentile unless he was circumcised.

The documents that were found originated with Rabbi Hillel/ Hillel lived a long long time after the Mosaic Covenant.

So, it seems you know for a fact that Acts does not speak of the laws applying to gentiles, and the verse following those laws about going to synagogue? I think you just want to argue, I'd just like to talk about those times.

I think you are right, one of the rules of the synagogue was circumcision. But then why would it talk in Acts of gentiles going there, and after it was decided they didn't have to be circumcised? I wish you could talk instead of sneer.

 

[john316forall]

I think John knew what law-keepers would try to do with his writing, when he clarified what 'commandment' he was referring to in 1 John 3:

1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENT, That we should BELIEVE on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

 

[gotime]

You may be the one with a problem...Which Book, Chapter and Verse please?

Its already there in a post above the one you read.

If Sin is breaking the law.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


and Jesus said that we can do nothing without Him:

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Thus the secret is to abide in Him and John says that if we abide in him we will sin not.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

And John was clear that sin is breaking the law. so not sinning is keeping it. The Key is abiding in Jesus.

and If Jesus is in us:

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

notice the real focus of this text is "his seed remaineth in him" Jesus in us causes us to be born again and not sin.

what other option have you, While we can not stop sinning by ourselves something changes when we by Faith accept Jesus' death for our sin. and then let Him into our hearts.

I can't explain how it works it just does. Faith does not need to understand exactly how Jesus takes us from disobedient to obedient, it Just trusts His promises and then it becomes reality. Faith is the only way. not by works lest any man should boast. Christ and Him crucified is the answer.