A believer is not sinless., A believer is guiltless...

[ladylynn]

If a believer is NOT sinless, or without sin, then HOW can they be guiltless, or without guilt? That would require having no conscience at all. Even believers DO sin, and most DO feel guilt.

Humanly speaking what you are saying is true. But in Christ we have received the forgiveness of sins. He has 100% acquitted us of all guilt and shame. As believers we will only be able to stand before God because of our standing IN His Son. But we all don't know this fact. We still see ourselves as sinners who sin when actually we are saints who sin.

In the world system when something is done., when a law is broken the law breaker must pay. And even the Christian should he break the law here, he has to pay and that is right and just. But when we sin in our day to day life as believers Jesus already paid and we walk in the assurance of our forgiveness (payment made) before God IN Christ and are learning to walk out our sonship.

As we look into the mirror of God's Word we see our carnal mind in comparison. In that shame and guilt we feel, that is the time to look to Jesus and receive again that forgiveness. The believer is made aware yet again that all sin is under the blood already. He recons it by faith.

Being able to see Christ's provision will be something we use every minute of the day. The Holy Spirit is always reminding us of our righteous standing even as we make wrong choices in our daily life. Many decisions are made throughout our day and we are bound to do or think or do something wrong. And knowing we walk in the provision of forgiveness as sons., continues to change us into the image of Christ.
It becomes a daily reality that Jesus is our life and walking like Him is what we are to do.

 

[ladylynn]

Forgiven. By faith.

Saved. By faith.

Obedient. By faith.

NOT condemned. By faith.

Under Grace and not law. By faith.

Guiltless. By faith.

Faith in the Grace, Mercy and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Excellent Thread. I was just thinking along these lines this morning...

Great post Grandpa. Since learning about grace, it's all I ever think about each day. The need for Faith to believe that His love and grace is real comes up every second of every day. Just realizing God loves us is because of grace and we can love Him back without feeling He would push us away.

We have freely been given God's love and we have a blood bought right to walk in His love by faith in Christ's gift of righteousness. Walking in this truth makes even a difficult day doable. All we have to do is think on this and recon it to be true by faith and walk in it and have joy for any kind of day.

 

[ladylynn]

But it says it convicts the world of righteousness. It doesn't say believers. You have to be consistent in interpretation.[/QUOTEe


The whole world is not righteous., only those who have been make righteous by the blood of Christ are convicted of their righteous standing before God. We need to be reminded of it in this world. He is the Comforter and the Teacher and gives illumination of the truth in us. He witnesses with our spirit that we are the sons of God.

The Holy Spirit does not do that with the unsaved. They do not have the Holy Spirit unless they receive Jesus Christ as Savior. That is certainly being consistent with the truth of the Scriptures.

We are instructed to rightly divide the Word of truth. Here is a great opportunity to apply that. The world is convicted of sin, the devil convicted of his judgment...the believer convicted or righteousness.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The whole world is not righteous., only those who have been make righteous by the blood of Christ are convicted of their righteous standing before God. We need to be reminded of it in this world. He is the Comforter and the Teacher and gives illumination of the truth in us. He witnesses with our spirit that we are the sons of God.

The Holy Spirit does not do that with the unsaved. They do not have the Holy Spirit unless they receive Jesus Christ as Savior. That is certainly being consistent with the truth of the Scriptures.

We are instructed to rightly divide the Word of truth. Here is a great opportunity to apply that. The world is convicted of sin, the devil convicted of his judgment...the believer convicted or righteousness.

This kind of inconsistent exegesis where you change the word world to mean whatever you want it to mean isn't credible.

The passage clearly says that the holy spirit convicts the world. That means everybody in the world.

And [when he] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me, and concerning righteousness, because I am going away to the Father and you will see me no more, and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned. John 16:8-11​

The holy spirit witnesses to the world of its sin for not believing in Christ;

The holy spirit witnesses to the world that the righteousness of the son of man in heaven is available to all as a free gift;

The holy spirit witnesses to the world that its ruler has been judged and the world is under a new ruler who will judge the world.

 

[ladylynn]

If a believer is NOT sinless, or without sin, then HOW can they be guiltless, or without guilt? That would require having no conscience at all. Even believers DO sin, and most DO feel guilt.

Just had another thought, we have been cleansed from a guilty conscience., that is amazing!

NAS Bible
Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
Amplified Bible
Let us all come forward and draw near with true (honest and sincere) hearts in unqualified assurance and absolute conviction engendered by faith (by that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness), having our hearts sprinkled and purified from a guilty (evil) conscience and our bodies cleansed with pure water.

So let us seize and hold fast and retain without wavering the hope we cherish and confess and our acknowledgement of it, for He Who promised is reliable (sure) and faithful to His word.



If we are being condemned and made to feel guilt., it is not coming from the Holy Spirit but the enemy of our souls. The Holy Spirit is to us the Comforter., Teacher., He reminds us of who we are IN Christ and convicts us of righteousness. Grace teaches us how to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts...how to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world.

There is therefore NOW NO condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus. Rom.8:1

 

[pwrnJC]

HeRoseFromTheDead.....Of course the Holy Spirit WILL do all of the above...EVENTUALLY when HE comes..amen! No denial there....but the fact remains.....not all who say "LORD, LORD" enters into heaven...wonder why? perhaps they did not obey the wooing or conviction that only the Holy Spirit can do? Can't you understand that? God does not want robots. Only those who will receive HIM. Only when the door is opened will the LORD come into the house when HE knocks. JESUS does NOT enter uninvited.......shall I quote an old proverb? You can lead a horse to water but you can't force him to drink!!!!!!

 

[BeyondET]

HeRoseFromTheDead.....Of course the Holy Spirit WILL do all of the above...EVENTUALLY when HE comes..amen! No denial there....but the fact remains.....not all who say "LORD, LORD" enters into heaven...wonder why? perhaps they did not obey the wooing or conviction that only the Holy Spirit can do? Can't you understand that? God does not want robots. Only those who will receive HIM. Only when the door is opened will the LORD come into the house when HE knocks. JESUS does NOT enter uninvited.......shall I quote an old proverb? You can lead a horse to water but you can't force him to drink!!!!!!

To funny knock knock

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

HeRoseFromTheDead.....Of course the Holy Spirit WILL do all of the above...EVENTUALLY when HE comes..amen! No denial there....but the fact remains.....not all who say "LORD, LORD" enters into heaven...wonder why? perhaps they did not obey the wooing or conviction that only the Holy Spirit can do? Can't you understand that? God does not want robots. Only those who will receive HIM. Only when the door is opened will the LORD come into the house when HE knocks. JESUS does NOT enter uninvited.......shall I quote an old proverb? You can lead a horse to water but you can't force him to drink!!!!!!

What are you talking about in reference to what I wrote?

 

[Word_Swordsman]

When born again our spiritman is brought alive toward God positionally. We are like a slave to a cruel master that has been rescued to serve a good master. However, if we resume service to the former evil master at the same time we serve the good master, then we are traitorous, not deserving of anything from the good. It ought o make us physically ill to deliberately foul our new relationship. If we deliberately sin against the Lord, knowing better, then we become guilty of sin again after having been forgiven, remaining a sinner.

Scriptures repeat that theme over and over, especially throughout1 & 2 Peter, and John's epistles. Grace covers us when walking with Jesus day by day, not wandering off onto sin paths, for he has provided powerful ways to stay on course with him.

Sinners must repent, and believe the whole gospel concerning Christ, or perish. Grace from God is our enabling charter. Abuse of his grace is continuing in a sin course.

 

[ladylynn]

This kind of inconsistent exegesis where you change the word world to mean whatever you want it to mean isn't credible.

The passage clearly says that the holy spirit convicts the world. That means everybody in the world.

And [when he] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me, and concerning righteousness, because I am going away to the Father and you will see me no more, and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned. John 16:8-11​

The holy spirit witnesses to the world of its sin for not believing in Christ;

The holy spirit witnesses to the world that the righteousness of the son of man in heaven is available to all as a free gift;

The holy spirit witnesses to the world that its ruler has been judged and the world is under a new ruler who will judge the world.

Again, it calls for the witness of the Holy Spirit to the believer on how to interpret these verses. John 16:8-11 can be taken that way as well. Based on the other verses found in the Bible about the ministry of the the Holy Spirit for the believer.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 5:10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; the one who does not believe God has make Him a liar because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son.

Bible commentary
Note 78 at John 16:10:
There could be two ways of interpreting this. First, the Holy Spirit will now have to reveal to mankind what is righteous in the sight of God because Jesus is no longer visible to illustrate true righteousness to us.
Second, this could mean that just as Jesus assured people that the goodness and mercy of God made them righteous by faith, not works, so now the Holy Spirit has taken over this ministry of bearing witness to their righteous relationship with the Father (1 John 5:13).


I have come to see in the second way of interpreting this as well. Seeing how the Holy Spirit has witnessed to my spirit about my being a son of God., He witnesses to my spirit daily about my righteous standing in Christ in the face the devil's accusations of condemnation and guilt.

The Holy Spirit witnesses I am no longer a slave to sin but instead a happy slave to God. The Holy Spirit has many things to teach us and the more we become familiar with the Bible, the more we will be able to discern what verses mean personally concerning us and what to apply to ourselves.

There are many more verses about the witness of the Holy Spirit in us but these should suffice for right now.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

[/SIZE][/FONT][/I][/B]Bible commentary
Note 78 at John 16:10:
There could be two ways of interpreting this. First, the Holy Spirit will now have to reveal to mankind what is righteous in the sight of God because Jesus is no longer visible to illustrate true righteousness to us.
Second, this could mean that just as Jesus assured people that the goodness and mercy of God made them righteous by faith, not works, so now the Holy Spirit has taken over this ministry of bearing witness to their righteous relationship with the Father (1 John 5:13).

I agree with the second part: the holy spirit witnesses to the world that righteousness is by faith. I think that's why Jesus said to the disciples, because you see me no more. In other words righteousness is a walk by faith (what GOD has done), not by sight (what we do).

For we walk by faith, not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I agree with the second part: the holy spirit witnesses to the world that righteousness is by faith. I think that's why Jesus said to the disciples, because you see me no more. In other words righteousness is a walk by faith (what GOD has done), not by sight (what we do).

For we walk by faith, not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7​

I think Paul is talking about the same thing in these two verses of walking by faith and not by sight because Christ is no longer on earth. In other words, he was saying man should live life unto the one who died for mankind and is now in heaven, which can only be done by faith because he can no longer be known after the flesh like he once was.

And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. 2 Corinthians 5:15-16​

 

[ladylynn]

When born again our spiritman is brought alive toward God positionally. We are like a slave to a cruel master that has been rescued to serve a good master. However, if we resume service to the former evil master at the same time we serve the good master, then we are traitorous, not deserving of anything from the good. It ought o make us physically ill to deliberately foul our new relationship. If we deliberately sin against the Lord, knowing better, then we become guilty of sin again after having been forgiven, remaining a sinner.

Scriptures repeat that theme over and over, especially throughout1 & 2 Peter, and John's epistles. Grace covers us when walking with Jesus day by day, not wandering off onto sin paths, for he has provided powerful ways to stay on course with him.

Sinners must repent, and believe the whole gospel concerning Christ, or perish. Grace from God is our enabling charter. Abuse of his grace is continuing in a sin course.

The believer has been identified in many ways but 1st and foremost he is a "righteous son" And as born again righteous sons., we do not seek to follow the flesh.,our desire is to follow Christ. But because we still have the flesh we also have a enemy who uses that against us. Many Christians do not have the true knowledge of their righteous standing before God as righteous sons. It is then the enemy of our souls will have an advantage over us. He is eagerly seeking whom he may devour. And he has succeeded in causing many believers to shipwreck their faith.

Jesus has paid for our sin and we are not "traitors" we are Sons at all times. And we were never deserving until we had Jesus. And since we do now have grace applied to our lives, it's not a matter of our "deserving" of anything good; but JESUS GAVE us HIS standing and HIS imputed righteousness. So IN CHRIST we are able to claim GRACE....undeserved love and favor of God. It's a gift.

That gift is especially needed when we do sin and fall. We call out and receive a fresh revelation of grace.... undeserved love and favor that we are forgiven. We can never become guilty again because Jesus took all our sin and judgment and guilt and shame already. We are no longer called sinners but saints and sons.

The theme repeated over and over for the believer is GRACE unmerited love and favor to the saints. Grace covers us when we need it... Where sin abounds GRACE much more abounds. You won't need the grace if you walking perfectly. We need grace every day as sons., and it has been provided for us but many don't know it.,so they can't claim it. And many don't believe in unmerited love and favor. They believe they have to earn it.

A believer who understands grace will know it cannot be abused. We know grace is our provision. We know that proper understanding of grace will teach us how to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts..how to live soberly righteously and godly in this present age... If the grace they follow isn't teaching them how to do this., it is not grace.

Believers cannot perish., they have been given everlasting life and they shall NOT perish.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Believers cannot perish., they have been given everlasting life and they shall NOT perish.

Your much opinion lacks scriptural backing. Consider studying 2 Tim 2. In particular note a key verse that is not given as a divine suggestion, but is a commandment embedded within a chapter of commandments.

2 Tim 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Departing from sin is necessary. There are no scriptures that excuse ignorance of our covenant, nor does grace give anyone a pass due to lack of such basic knowledge. Paul commanded Timothy to study in that chapter, and teach the word. The Lord knows who are his, and knows who believes like demons do, and tremble.

 

[Blain]

Your much opinion lacks scriptural backing. Consider studying 2 Tim 2. In particular note a key verse that is not given as a divine suggestion, but is a commandment embedded within a chapter of commandments.

2 Tim 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Departing from sin is necessary. There are no scriptures that excuse ignorance of our covenant, nor does grace give anyone a pass due to lack of such basic knowledge. Paul commanded Timothy to study in that chapter, and teach the word. The Lord knows who are his, and knows who believes like demons do, and tremble.

I agree we must depart from sin but do not confuse being without sin and departing from sin

 

[PeterJens]

Just looked up the word manifest.,

I thought again at why I do not like the word manifest Christ in your life. We use the word manifest to separate out one thing from another, pointing out that they do not belong together, one is merely within the other.

So a manifest of a ships cargo, is the list of the cargo, whether it is in the ship or not, it has an entity or being all of its own.

But Gods work in us makes us into children of God. We become something different, we are full of grace, truth and life.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
1 Cor 12:7

 

[Word_Swordsman]

I agree we must depart from sin but do not confuse being without sin and departing from sin

Confusion is dispelled by mere logic and scriptures. If not departing from sin/evil, then one retains whatever sin/evil encountered, therefore logically one either takes on guilt or regains guilt of sin/evil. How will God deal with a saint departing this life with sin guilt? Even many who have done much in Jesus' name will be told by the Lord to depart from him, for he never knew them.

Here's a great section for my scriptural answer.

2 Pet 1: KJV 1-11 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shallneither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit in a believer is there convincing us something thought or done is iniquity/sin and is to be rejected. He is not "convicting" anyone, as by a judge in a courtroom. He stands in for guidance while we work on those things to be added to our faith. To say a believer will sin due to ignorance of truth is an insult to the Spirit, if he be in a person. So a believer should ask and receive him, thereby walk in light, not darkness, if listening and heeding.

If any person fails to depart from sin, rather embracing it like a helpless slave to sin, that person will be possessor of sin and serve sin, which is forbidden, having been washed of it in days past. None taking the name of Jesus should be found like a washed pig wallowing in the mire, even if not well versed yet in Bible knowledge. Sinners know they sin, not one human honestly ignorant of that fact. The idea is to serve God and his righteousness, abandoning evil.

 

[PeterJens]

Hyper-grace proposes when mixed with calvanism, OSAS, once you have faith at somepoint you are saved.
In this formula all sin is forgiven from Christ onwards for everyone, and sin is no longer an issue.

Another proposal is put forward by Paul. The law condemns and does not bring righteousness or acceptability before God.
It is the right relationship, the understanding the heart of the Lord and his intentions that matter. This is expressed in belief or faith in God.

This faith in Christ means we are not under the law anymore, but under the Spirit, born again, walking in fellowship with Christ. The outflow of our hearts is to follow and obey Christ, to do the things he asked of us. As a measure of the work done in us we follow. This following is perfection, acceptable to God as long as we exercise faith, which is counted as righteousness. If we continue in sin, faith in the end becomes lost to us, so we loose our righteous standing before Christ and God.

"Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" Matt 19:16
"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." Matt 19:21

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. Matt 5:43
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Luke 6:35
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Luke 6:36

Matthew uses the term perfect twice. Once in terms of salvation, following Christ is to find eternal life, perfection.
Loving your enemies is being perfect. Luke softens the word by using the word merciful, which is more specific to the meaning of loving your enemies and closes off the idea we are perfect in everything.

So our standard in following Christ is achievable through fellowship with Christ. It is the faith we have that deems us righteous, not our behaviour, though our righteous behaviour is the fruit of the relationship. If we loose our relationship we loose our righteousness. This negates the idea of one sin invalidates fellowship or faith, but persistant sin does, because it breaks the relationship. If you have teenage children you will know the line between being an independent adult and respectful to your parents, often get mixed up with destructive results. Sometimes the break is permanent, sometimes it comes back.

The problem with calvanism is the assumption a break is impossible. Peter could have broken his relationship with Christ when he denied him, but it was his faith that remained strong and saved him. Judas did break this faith, and denied Christ was the messiah, just a lunatic preacher who could be sold to the highest bidder. He lost his faith.

 

[John146]

Can you show again the verses by the Apostle Paul where he states, through the Holy Spirit, that one can lose the gift of salvation after receiving it?

Hyper-grace proposes when mixed with calvanism, OSAS, once you have faith at somepoint you are saved.
In this formula all sin is forgiven from Christ onwards for everyone, and sin is no longer an issue.

Another proposal is put forward by Paul. The law condemns and does not bring righteousness or acceptability before God.
It is the right relationship, the understanding the heart of the Lord and his intentions that matter. This is expressed in belief or faith in God.

This faith in Christ means we are not under the law anymore, but under the Spirit, born again, walking in fellowship with Christ. The outflow of our hearts is to follow and obey Christ, to do the things he asked of us. As a measure of the work done in us we follow. This following is perfection, acceptable to God as long as we exercise faith, which is counted as righteousness. If we continue in sin, faith in the end becomes lost to us, so we loose our righteous standing before Christ and God.

"Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" Matt 19:16
"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." Matt 19:21

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. Matt 5:43
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Luke 6:35
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Luke 6:36

Matthew uses the term perfect twice. Once in terms of salvation, following Christ is to find eternal life, perfection.
Loving your enemies is being perfect. Luke softens the word by using the word merciful, which is more specific to the meaning of loving your enemies and closes off the idea we are perfect in everything.

So our standard in following Christ is achievable through fellowship with Christ. It is the faith we have that deems us righteous, not our behaviour, though our righteous behaviour is the fruit of the relationship. If we loose our relationship we loose our righteousness. This negates the idea of one sin invalidates fellowship or faith, but persistant sin does, because it breaks the relationship. If you have teenage children you will know the line between being an independent adult and respectful to your parents, often get mixed up with destructive results. Sometimes the break is permanent, sometimes it comes back.

The problem with calvanism is the assumption a break is impossible. Peter could have broken his relationship with Christ when he denied him, but it was his faith that remained strong and saved him. Judas did break this faith, and denied Christ was the messiah, just a lunatic preacher who could be sold to the highest bidder. He lost his faith.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Your much opinion lacks scriptural backing. Consider studying 2 Tim 2. In particular note a key verse that is not given as a divine suggestion, but is a commandment embedded within a chapter of commandments.

2 Tim 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Departing from sin is necessary. There are no scriptures that excuse ignorance of our covenant, nor does grace give anyone a pass due to lack of such basic knowledge. Paul commanded Timothy to study in that chapter, and teach the word. The Lord knows who are his, and knows who believes like demons do, and tremble.

2 Tim 2:19 is a great verse because it describes the reality clearly and succinctly. Essentially, the lord knows those who do his will (keep his word), and only those who do GOD's will, will be saved. And we do his will by departing from iniquity.

And by this we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. The one who says “I know him,” and does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in this person. But whoever keeps his word, truly in this person the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in him. 1 John 2:3-5

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21​