a born-again Christian can never (keyword: never) lose their salvation

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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#61
without goal or effort to stop <-- are you saying, if we are trying to "understand sin better" or "understand why we sin" so that we can somehow be better able to overcome sin, is that in a way count as goal or effort of some kind?
The idea of "practice" is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. This describes the practice as habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life. No repentance, just bring it on! Those who make a practice of sinning (without goal or effort to stop) demonstrate that they have not been born of God.
 
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theanointedsinner

Guest
#62
The idea of "practice" is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. This describes the practice as habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life. No repentance, just bring it on! Those who make a practice of sinning (without goal or effort to stop) demonstrate that they have not been born of God.
in a sense, thank you for helping me assure my salvation, and I can thank God for leading me to websites like these.
 
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theanointedsinner

Guest
#63
I'm saved !!!! (exclamation points doesn't produce as fast as I imagined)
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#64
The idea of "practice" is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. This describes the practice as habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life. No repentance, just bring it on! Those who make a practice of sinning (without goal or effort to stop) demonstrate that they have not been born of God.
So what do we do with the Christians that say they sin all the time? :giggle:
 
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theanointedsinner

Guest
#65
So what do we do with the Christians that say they sin all the time? :giggle:
it's possible that they are trying to be extra humble for fear of self-righteousness
 
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theanointedsinner

Guest
#66
as in 1 Cor 12:10 - if you think you are standing firm, be careful do not fall
 
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theanointedsinner

Guest
#68
Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.
that verse can be very encouraging, thank you, no matter how bad things can be in life, that verse can be worth putting on our signature in cc.com

continue to be of service to God, mailman for what you do to help the least of these, you help God
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
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#69
You are flesh and blood, not Jesus Christ. the creator of all things. Your flesh is weak.
People look upon our physical appearance. God looks within.
We are transformed as Christians. We carry the spirit of truth within us.
From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
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#70
The talents represent monetary value and are distibuted according to ability (Matthew 25:15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (vs. 25). The third servant had been given abilities and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but had chosen to reject it.

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called wicked and slothful and an unprofitable servant (Matthew 25:30) who is cast out into outer darkness, certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as a cruel and ruthless opportunist, "reaping and gathering" what he had no right to claim as his own. This slothful so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not mean necessarily that he is saved. *Israel (the Jews) were called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved. *Isaiah 43:10 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.

Moses was not allowed to enter into the promised land. Is he in heaven?

As quoted from Proverbs 11:31 and reinforces the point that if it is with great difficulty, suffering, pain and loss that the righteous are saved, what will become of the ungodly man and sinner? Peter was not implying that it's hard to be saved in the sense that it's hard to work for and earn your salvation, as if only those who win a gold medal in the Olympics will be saved and everyone else will perish.
Um, no. You said the talents represent monetary things (money), but the talents are money. That's like instead of saying a physical lamb represents Christ, you are saying Christ is a physical lamb. You can't have a physical thing represent something and be the thing it represents. What the talents represent in the parable is us using, or not using, our abilities for God- be that money, or possessions, or abilities. (Spiritually not physically).

The bible says all three were servants of the master. You can't rewrite the bible and put your own meanings in there. The master did not put his trust in a stranger off the street, but into his servants- genuine bona-fide servants that represent Christians. The worldly are not God's servants, Christians are.

Were the israélites God's people? Yes. Were all of His people saved? No. Are the righteous God's people? Yes. Will all the righteous be saved? No. It is hard for even the righteous to be saved... "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" 1 Peter 4:18.

Did God call His people out of Egypt? Yes. Did all 600,000+ of them make it to the promise land? No, only two of them. "Many are called, but few are chosen." Not all those who are called to be a Christian will be chosen for heaven, but only those who DO the Will of the Father- which is to obey the Son.
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
1,099
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#71
The idea of "practice" is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. This describes the practice as habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life. No repentance, just bring it on! Those who make a practice of sinning (without goal or effort to stop) demonstrate that they have not been born of God.
Man is sin because the spirit of God departed Adam and Eve when they ate the fruit. They became sin in the flesh, and sin begat sin. It has a root, which is the flesh. So the flesh produces sin. That is why scripture says that Jesus became sin,(flesh),though he knew no sin
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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#72
Man is sin because the spirit of God departed Adam and Eve when they ate the fruit. They became sin in the flesh, and sin begat sin. It has a root, which is the flesh. So the flesh produces sin. That is why scripture says that Jesus became sin,(flesh),though he knew no sin
so far so good, please go on
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#73
Um, no. You said the talents represent monetary things (money), but the talents are money. That's like instead of saying a physical lamb represents Christ, you are saying Christ is a physical lamb. You can't have a physical thing represent something and be the thing it represents. What the talents represent in the parable is us using, or not using, our abilities for God- be that money, or possessions, or abilities. (Spiritually not physically).
Matthew 25:27 - So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. The central point of the parable is the importance of being a faithful servant of what God has entrusted to us. The first two servants were obviously faithful, but the third servant was faithless.

The bible says
all three were servants of the master. You can't rewrite the bible and put your own meanings in there. The master did not put his trust in a stranger off the street, but into his servants- genuine bona-fide servants that represent Christians. The worldly are not God's servants, Christians are.
The parable does not identify the third servant as a Christian. "Buried his money in the ground, wicked, slothful, unprofitable servant who is cast into out darkness" is NOT descriptive of a Christian.

Were the israélites God's people? Yes. Were all of His people saved? No.
BINGO! The Israelites were referred to by God as "My servant whom I have chosen" (Isaiah 43:10) even though not all of the Israelites were saved. ;)

Are the righteous God's people? Yes. Will all the righteous be saved? No.
Yes, the righteous are God's people and yes, all the righteous will be saved. *Matthew 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Of all those who are justified, how many of them will be glorified? ALL of them. *Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

It is hard for even the righteous to be saved... "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" 1 Peter 4:18.
You misinterpret this verse, just as Roman Catholics misinterpret it. Once again, as quoted from Proverbs 11:31 and reinforces the point that if it is with great difficulty, suffering, pain and loss that the righteous are saved, what will become of the ungodly man and sinner? Peter was not implying that it's hard to be saved in the sense that it's hard to work for and earn your salvation, as if only those who win a gold medal in the Olympics will be saved and everyone else will perish.

Did God call His people out of Egypt? Yes. Did all 600,000+ of them make it to the promise land? No, only two of them. "Many are called, but few are chosen."
What about Moses? He did not make it into the promised land. Is Moses in heaven?

Not all those who are called to be a Christian will be chosen for heaven, but only those who DO the Will of the Father- which is to obey the Son.
Matthew 22:14 - Called (2282 - kletos) in Matthew 22:14 is talking about the general call of the gospel which goes out to all men every time the gospel is preached.

In the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, we read <Adjective, 2822,kletos> "called, invited," is used, (a) "of the call of the Gospel," Matt. 20:16; 22:14, not there "an effectual call," as in the Epistles, Romans 1:1,6,7; 8:28; 1 Corinthians 1:2,24; Jude 1:1; Revelation 17:14; in Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2 the meaning is "saints by calling;" (b) of "an appointment to apostleship," Romans 1:1; 1 Corinthians 1:1.

Called (2564 - kaleo) in Romans 8:30 conveys the idea of an effectual call and emphasizes God's sovereign work. There is a distinction between the called (klhtoi) and the chosen (eklektoi) called out from the called. Romans 8:30 says ..whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *Paul did not say here that many were called and justified but few were glorified.

You continue to read the Bible through the lens of salvation by works, which is not the will of the Father. *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
1,099
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#75
so far so good, please go on
Sin does not exist, man make sin by every wrong thing they do, and every wrong thing they think. Once the body is dead, and a person no longer have life in the body, sin ceases to exist in that person.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#76
"But if (conditional statement) you (born again Christian) sin willfully (without goal or effort to stop) there no longer (point of change) remains (doesn't continue) a sacrifice (Christ's sacrifice) for your sins." This verse proves that it is possible to lose your salvation- which is Christ's sacrifice for your sins.
Yes, the passage is clearly talking about saved people, not people who were never saved. We know this by the use of the word 'sanctified' which the author himself defines for us in this context:

"10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?"

Hebrews 10:10,14,26-29

Sanctified people who have been perfected in Christ who purposely and willingly turn back to their old lives in unbelief and a rejection of the blood of Christ lose the sacrifice for sin (the blood of Jesus) that sanctifies them making them perfect before God in heaven. Without that blood continually ministering before the Father, removing the guilt of their sins when they commit them, they have nothing left to look forward to but the wrath of God that will consume his enemies.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#77
Yes, the passage is clearly talking about saved people, not people who were never saved. We know this by the use of the word 'sanctified' which the author himself defines for us in this context:

"10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?"

Hebrews 10:10,14,26-29

Sanctified people who have been perfected in Christ who purposely and willingly turn back to their old lives in unbelief and a rejection of the blood of Christ lose the sacrifice for sin (the blood of Jesus) that sanctifies them making them perfect before God in heaven. Without that blood continually ministering before the Father, removing the guilt of their sins when they commit them, they have nothing left to look forward to but the wrath of God that will consume his enemies.
If the passage is talking about saved people who willfully sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, then how are saved people sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (Hebrews 10:10) and perfected for all time those who are sanctified (Hebrews 10:14), yet also lose their salvation? That is an oxymoron. Let's take a closer look.

*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 seems to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but who has committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

In Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#78
Is it possible for someone to escape the defilements of the world without true saving faith in Jesus Christ?
yes, walk into a church, walk with true believers, You will be surrounded by people who are blessed by God, and by association, you will be blessed yourself just by being in their company, even though you have yet to make a leap of faith and trust God yourself.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#79
So when 2 Pet 2:20 says they escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ they have only received an outward cleansing. They remain corrupt on the inside? Could you do a word study on the Greek word for knowledge here. I am of the belief that it is the kind of knowledge that comes from experience. They have experienced Jesus. They do not just have some superficial knowledge of Jesus. Further I wonder why when they get soiled again on the outside Peter says they are worse off than before. Why would they be worse off when they never were true believers at all.
anyone who walks with a group of believers have experienced jesus, Whether they were saved or not.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#80
Allow me to postulate a 3d option; a worker may grow weary of fighting the good fight and although he thinks he [she/they] know the truth, opts to trade riches in glory for rewards here and now. They decide "I'd rather rule in hell than serve in heaven" and makes the horrible decision to trade away Gods gifts for fame, power and fortune and with knowledge and forethought. They start preaching a false doctrine? Were they ever really saved or did they simply sell their soul and salvation to the devil as I suspect many have?
that person has become an antichrist.

John answers that question, They went out from us, but they were never of us, for if they were, they never would have departed.