A Closer Look at God’s Election
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No, they hold fast to their own pride. I'm saying they hold fast to thinking they have ANY control or power over their situations at all. You warped that right out of it's context. I'm saying they have to hold on to that arrogance to think they're in control enough to save themselves or to walk away from God.
After reading your next reply I see you believe you deserve some glory and credit for salvation. I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong about this.
Wrong 10000% WRONG. If you think "YOU" hold anything, that your power plays ANY part at all. You're just mistaken about this and should repent for claiming what belongs to Him alone. Period.
After reading your next reply I see you believe you deserve some glory and credit for salvation. I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong about this.
Wrong 10000% WRONG. If you think "YOU" hold anything, that your power plays ANY part at all. You're just mistaken about this and should repent for claiming what belongs to Him alone. Period.
I've skimmed over this thread but paid more attention to this page, #3. Do you really really think that God is a puppeteer of some sort? I'm not trying to be rude here, but I am genuinely asking just how you see God being 'in control' of everything. Words have meaning and everything means everything. Does He then control our thoughts and cause us to decide if we want toast or cereal for breakfast? Does He control us if we sin? Does He direct a car to hit a child in the street or cause a pastor to commit adultery?
I suppose you might come back with 'of course not' because I have had this type of conversation with people who say God is in control of everything before, but like I said, everything is everything.
Now if you can respond with sincere dialogue on the matter and refrain from comments such as 'You have a huge problem being subservient to God don't you?', then I would really to understand just what you mean with your comment that God is in control of everything.
I suppose you might come back with 'of course not' because I have had this type of conversation with people who say God is in control of everything before, but like I said, everything is everything.
Now if you can respond with sincere dialogue on the matter and refrain from comments such as 'You have a huge problem being subservient to God don't you?', then I would really to understand just what you mean with your comment that God is in control of everything.
Well I agree with you here. I don't deny any of that. What I do deny is that you, your will, your goodness, your obedience, or ANYTHING AT ALL that comes from "you", plays any part or gets any glory or credit, in any way, for your salvation. I'm NOT saying you never did anything good, I'm not suggesting at all that after we are saved the Spirit doesn't empower and leads us to do good things. What I am saying is that God drew you to Himself, you didn't "decide" that in your fallen state. God grants you repentance, so when you in your head feel like you "choose" to turn from your way and towards His, that was by His power not yours, He gets the glory, not you. Now when He resurrects your dead from birth spirit to life and reconnects it to His, that was not by your will or choice, it was by His grace by His power. Did "you" have faith? Yes. You had the exact measure of faith that He assigned you. See my point here. When Paul says salvation is of God least any man boast, that doesn't mean "we shouldn't boast", it means we have no boast, it is ALL Gods and we have nothing at all to boast about.
I usually say this, but haven't since we've been talking, but I don't believe in the osas strawman that says once I get my salvation ticket punched I can sin as much as I want. I condemn that as much as Paul did in Romans. I agree with what you are saying about the Spirit leading us to do good things, but that is also why Jesus gets ALL credit for anything I do good. I understand why you think the way you do, I really do. But you have to see that the tiny bit of credit you want for "hanging in there", "doing the right thing", and "making the right choice". That credit doesn't belong to you and you have to understand it doesn't save you either. The reason people think they can choose to walk away from God and lose salvation is because they falsely thing that their choice to "ask Jesus into their hearts" was what saved them. Neither is true.
I usually say this, but haven't since we've been talking, but I don't believe in the osas strawman that says once I get my salvation ticket punched I can sin as much as I want. I condemn that as much as Paul did in Romans. I agree with what you are saying about the Spirit leading us to do good things, but that is also why Jesus gets ALL credit for anything I do good. I understand why you think the way you do, I really do. But you have to see that the tiny bit of credit you want for "hanging in there", "doing the right thing", and "making the right choice". That credit doesn't belong to you and you have to understand it doesn't save you either. The reason people think they can choose to walk away from God and lose salvation is because they falsely thing that their choice to "ask Jesus into their hearts" was what saved them. Neither is true.
"God does it ALL, man does nothing at all" , I am not trying to say we don't respond to it, or that there are not choices that we are making. There absolutely are, and if you believe you get some kind of credit or reason to boast for this, then that's between you and God, but what I'm trying to convey is that if God wasn't acting on your heart, drawing you in, opening your eyes and heart to His truth, you'd have never come His way. That's why Ephesians 2 tells us this-
" For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Salvation is a gift of God, and although gifts are often asked for, as far as "choosing God", sometimes they are not and the giver just surprises them with it. This was how God saved me and why I so strongly testify they way I do. When I made "the choice" so many people believe saves us, I wasn't saved and was a false convert unknowingly for 5 years or so. However once some truly hard trials hit and I couldn't see God helping me out they way I needed and thought He would be I came to the conclusion He wasn't really real and there was no reason to keep believing is silly pointless things. I wasn't mad at Him, I didn't go "anti-God", I just no longer wanted to waste my time with silly beliefs for no reason anymore. Yet God granted me repentance and brought me to my knees just the same. At the time it happened I had no clue what had happen. All I knew was I saw clearly everything I had done with my 33 year old life and it wasn't pretty. It broke me.
It was then and there I decided that the world won, that "I" couldn't do this (life) anymore, and I quit it all. LOL I guess I quit life at that point, but the one thing I know I did not do that night, I did not "choose Jesus" as we would think about it at all. God brought me to my knees and I wasn't even sure why I was on them. I woke up the next day new. I go into the details on this here way to often so if you want to know more I'll share, but it was at lunch the next day that I KNEW whatever had happened, it was God, and I knew Jesus was His Son.
So my point here is that when I was working this stuff out in my head and with the Spirit, thinking about the true power of "our choice" and the part it plays in salvation. I was thinking how can I have free will, come to Jesus and choose Him, get saved, and then not be free to walk away from Him if I choose? There was no way we can choose to come to Him and then be made a slave as a result. I just couldn't reconcile this in my mind. Then it hit me.
I didn't choose Him. When I did do what most would think of as getting saved, responding to the altar call, repeating the prayer with all my heart, and even being dunked under water for good measure and declared saved by my spiritual leader at the time, I was not saved. Yet when I was saved I had no idea what was going on, in my head didn't even believe God was real anymore, and most defiantly did not make any choice about my salvation at all, yet was gifted repentance at this moment. Given this I can only conclude that I had 100% nothing at all to do with my salvation. it was 100% God and if not -1000% me, then it was 0% me for sure. While this is very obvious in my case, I believe it is just as true for the person who did the exact same thing I did the first time, responds to the altar call, and does so in truth and is the way God uses to save them. Even in this case I believe the person gets as much "credit" for their salvation as I do in mine. No matter how it plays out, it's 100% God and 0% us. This is just the truth.
" For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Salvation is a gift of God, and although gifts are often asked for, as far as "choosing God", sometimes they are not and the giver just surprises them with it. This was how God saved me and why I so strongly testify they way I do. When I made "the choice" so many people believe saves us, I wasn't saved and was a false convert unknowingly for 5 years or so. However once some truly hard trials hit and I couldn't see God helping me out they way I needed and thought He would be I came to the conclusion He wasn't really real and there was no reason to keep believing is silly pointless things. I wasn't mad at Him, I didn't go "anti-God", I just no longer wanted to waste my time with silly beliefs for no reason anymore. Yet God granted me repentance and brought me to my knees just the same. At the time it happened I had no clue what had happen. All I knew was I saw clearly everything I had done with my 33 year old life and it wasn't pretty. It broke me.
It was then and there I decided that the world won, that "I" couldn't do this (life) anymore, and I quit it all. LOL I guess I quit life at that point, but the one thing I know I did not do that night, I did not "choose Jesus" as we would think about it at all. God brought me to my knees and I wasn't even sure why I was on them. I woke up the next day new. I go into the details on this here way to often so if you want to know more I'll share, but it was at lunch the next day that I KNEW whatever had happened, it was God, and I knew Jesus was His Son.
So my point here is that when I was working this stuff out in my head and with the Spirit, thinking about the true power of "our choice" and the part it plays in salvation. I was thinking how can I have free will, come to Jesus and choose Him, get saved, and then not be free to walk away from Him if I choose? There was no way we can choose to come to Him and then be made a slave as a result. I just couldn't reconcile this in my mind. Then it hit me.
I didn't choose Him. When I did do what most would think of as getting saved, responding to the altar call, repeating the prayer with all my heart, and even being dunked under water for good measure and declared saved by my spiritual leader at the time, I was not saved. Yet when I was saved I had no idea what was going on, in my head didn't even believe God was real anymore, and most defiantly did not make any choice about my salvation at all, yet was gifted repentance at this moment. Given this I can only conclude that I had 100% nothing at all to do with my salvation. it was 100% God and if not -1000% me, then it was 0% me for sure. While this is very obvious in my case, I believe it is just as true for the person who did the exact same thing I did the first time, responds to the altar call, and does so in truth and is the way God uses to save them. Even in this case I believe the person gets as much "credit" for their salvation as I do in mine. No matter how it plays out, it's 100% God and 0% us. This is just the truth.
Here’s a trinity of passages teaching us that Christians
need to continue to repent of their on-going sins …
“Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance
… For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted …”
(2 Corinthians 7:9-10)
“But let your “Yes” be “Yes,” and your “No”, “No” … lest you fall into judgment …
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will
save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.” (James 5:12; 19-20)
Surely, there is no guarantee that verse 12 refers to eternal death.
But, re: verses 19-20 … does God kill Christians who continue to sin?
… Absolutely NO! So, this must refer to eternal (spiritual) death.
“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)
John is writing to Christians …
I’m assuming those who confess their sins are also repenting of them!
need to continue to repent of their on-going sins …
“Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance
… For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted …”
(2 Corinthians 7:9-10)
“But let your “Yes” be “Yes,” and your “No”, “No” … lest you fall into judgment …
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will
save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.” (James 5:12; 19-20)
Surely, there is no guarantee that verse 12 refers to eternal death.
But, re: verses 19-20 … does God kill Christians who continue to sin?
… Absolutely NO! So, this must refer to eternal (spiritual) death.
“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)
John is writing to Christians …
I’m assuming those who confess their sins are also repenting of them!