a great multitude came out of great tribulation.

[journey41]

No we would be of Abraham. The promise which we receive God is the promise that "All Nations of the world will be blessed" Which is what Paul was trying to show in Romans 9, That just being a child of abraham does not guarantee anyone entry into Heaven.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and lo, a Lamb with him an hundred and forty and four thousand, having HIS FATHERS NAME WRITTEN ON THEIR FOREHEADS.

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia....
Rev 3:12 Him that overcomes will I make a pilliar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more, out: and I will WRITE UPON HIM THE NAME OF MY GOD and the name of the city of my God, which is "new jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have SEALED the servants of our god IN THEIR FOREHEADS.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which WERE SEALED and there were SEALED an HUNDRED, AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND of all the tribes of the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should NOT hurt the grass the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but ONLY THOSE MEN which have NOT the SEAL OF GOD IN THEIR FOREHEADS.

So these ones are sealed before the trumpets are blown. They cannot be touched, but there are only 144,000 sealed. Can you explain this. Remember these ones have followed the lamb wheresoever he goes. These ones have been feeding on the truth.

John 6:27 Labour not for the MEAT which perishes, but for that MEAT, which endures unto everlasting life, which the SON of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father SEALED.

So these ones feeding of the truth (meat which gives everlasting life) will be sealed. There are other christians worshiping but have not been feeding on the truth. They have the basics, and believe in Christ, but believe in another doctrine (not the full truth) or their hearts arnt quite right. see the letters to the churches. These ones will go through tribulation. Great tribulation last days. But the 144,000 are special. They are especially chosen by God to teach the truth. God needs some truthful ministers out there, amongst the millions. These ones make up the firstfruits. These ones were not defiled with women (religion, false beliefs) These were redeemed from among MEN (not just physical Israelites) Can you see the pattern.

Matthew 19:30 But MANY that are FIRST shall be LAST: and the LAST shall be FIRST.

The Israelites rejected Christ, they were the first ones invited but they refused to come to the wedding, so invitations went out to the Gentiles and the gentiles accepted Christ. The Gentiles are FIRST to enter the Kingdom, and the Isralites will be grafted back in LAST.

Gentiles - FIRST
FIRST - FIRSTFRUITS
But only only 144,000 are FIRSTFRUITS
the rest of the christian gentiles will go through GREAT TRIBULATION
and will come in soon after, but will not be first.

We all came to salvation through the 12 tribes of Israel. It all started from them. The promise was made to Abraham yes, but the tribes were formed after this promise. If it wasn't for the 12 tribes we would not of heard of God. It started with them and we were adopted in later under the new covenant, so that makes us part of the 12 tribes. And Israel is made up of 12 tribes.

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God and the promises.

5. Whose are the FATHERS, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen

6. Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For THEY are NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and lo, a Lamb with him an hundred and forty and four thousand, having HIS FATHERS NAME WRITTEN ON THEIR FOREHEADS.

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia....
Rev 3:12 Him that overcomes will I make a pilliar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more, out: and I will WRITE UPON HIM THE NAME OF MY GOD and the name of the city of my God, which is "new jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have SEALED the servants of our god IN THEIR FOREHEADS.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which WERE SEALED and there were SEALED an HUNDRED, AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND of all the tribes of the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should NOT hurt the grass the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but ONLY THOSE MEN which have NOT the SEAL OF GOD IN THEIR FOREHEADS.

So these ones are sealed before the trumpets are blown. They cannot be touched, but there are only 144,000 sealed. Can you explain this. Remember these ones have followed the lamb wheresoever he goes. These ones have been feeding on the truth.

John 6:27 Labour not for the MEAT which perishes, but for that MEAT, which endures unto everlasting life, which the SON of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father SEALED.

So these ones feeding of the truth (meat which gives everlasting life) will be sealed. There are other christians worshiping but have not been feeding on the truth. They have the basics, and believe in Christ, but believe in another doctrine (not the full truth) or their hearts arnt quite right. see the letters to the churches. These ones will go through tribulation. Great tribulation last days. But the 144,000 are special. They are especially chosen by God to teach the truth. God needs some truthful ministers out there, amongst the millions. These ones make up the firstfruits. These ones were not defiled with women (religion, false beliefs) These were redeemed from among MEN (not just physical Israelites) Can you see the pattern.

Matthew 19:30 But MANY that are FIRST shall be LAST: and the LAST shall be FIRST.

The Israelites rejected Christ, they were the first ones invited but they refused to come to the wedding, so invitations went out to the Gentiles and the gentiles accepted Christ. The Gentiles are FIRST to enter the Kingdom, and the Isralites will be grafted back in LAST.

Gentiles - FIRST
FIRST - FIRSTFRUITS
But only only 144,000 are FIRSTFRUITS
the rest of the christian gentiles will go through GREAT TRIBULATION
and will come in soon after, but will not be first.

We all came to salvation through the 12 tribes of Israel. It all started from them. The promise was made to Abraham yes, but the tribes were formed after this promise. If it wasn't for the 12 tribes we would not of heard of God. It started with them and we were adopted in later under the new covenant, so that makes us part of the 12 tribes. And Israel is made up of 12 tribes.

No actually, the promise came through the line of Judah, of which David came from, and of which the term "jew" comes from. Jesus came from Judah, not the other 11 tribes.

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God and the promises.

5. Whose are the FATHERS, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen

6. Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For THEY are NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL.

I hope this makes sense.

you missed a verse: "nor are they children because they are of the seed of Abraham"

Paul was talking of the promise.

1. Abraham had many children, but the promise came through one

2. Isaac had two sons, but the promise came through Jacob.

what is the promise? Christ. Look at the genealogy of Christ, and you will see this is true.

It is through Christ that the promise is fulfilled (in your seed shall all the world be blessed)

thus the word of God (OT) and Gods plan through the Israel was fulfilled, and as Paul said " it is not as though the word of God has taken no affect" or was proven to be a lie. It was fulfilled according to Gods plan.

He was fighting the lie of the jews (Our law must be followed, We are Gods people so we get an automatic in, etc etc)

Rev is a book of prophesy given to the world. Again, Prophesy is to be taken literally., If it is not literally fulfilled, it purpose and usefulness (prove that God is who he says he is) is made to no affect.

That is what separates God from false prophets. Nicodemus is said to have prophesied about Hitler and the 3rd Reich, and this prophesy is sad to have come true. However, if one looks at it, the prophesy is only true if one allegorises or changes the prophesy and does not take it literally. For he did not literally prophesy about Germany or Hitler.

All of Gods Prophesies have literally came true. If the "1000 years" kingdom is not a literal 1000 years. and if the 144000 are not literal Jews, God becomes no more a prophet than Nicodemus. who if we take his prophesies in an allegorical or symbolic form, has been right in all or most of his prophesies.

 

[1Covenant]

Throughout Revelation there is a hearing and turning to see what is heard. It is declared to John that the Lion of the tribe of Judah has come and John turns to see it and he sees a lamb as though slain. We know they are one in the same. This symbolic language conveys meaning about the nature and work of Christ in this instance. There are other such instances but this is also true of the 144,000. The number is proclaimed to John and he turns to see it and it is a multitude that no one can number. This is two descriptions of the same thing. None of this should be surprising as this was the promise to Abraham (an unnumbered multitude). And so we know that if we are Christ’s we are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Therefore I think it is more likely that the 144000 is symbolic of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles and a symbolic multitude (12x12x1000), which itself is a picture of the church corporate throughout the ages. Remember that God said that the OT people having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

I realize that this will likely not sit well with most folks who approach Revelation with a dispensational point of view, and not a parallel or recapitulating view of Revelation, but I thought I would share.

Respectfully

 

[wakeup]

To use romans 9 to show the 144000 may not be jews does not work.

In romans, Paul is talking to jews,

In revelation. Paul is talking to the world. So he would have no need to show they were of jewish decent if they were not jews.

Nice try though.

first of all they are virgins; and they are the ones that follow the lord where soever he goes. the meaning of virgin in biblical language,means clean from ever worshipping other Gods,and bowing down to them, or kissing them. they have never done these things ever. plus if you read rev.7:1 the four angels are told not to hurt the earth untill the 14400 are sealed: so what does it tell you? that they are all alive at the second coming; because god will not have them hurt. the 4 angels are giong to hurt the earth and the sea in verse2.

''wakeup''.

 

[wakeup]

No we would be of Abraham. The promise which we receive God is the promise that "All Nations of the world will be blessed" Which is what Paul was trying to show in Romans 9, That just being a child of abraham does not guarantee anyone entry into Heaven.

what he is saying is; just because you are an israelite does not mean that you can automaticly go in the kingdom: isaac is born by promise, o k. so we are born by promise also, the promise of christ to us. ''you will be in the kingdom with me,and we will sup together at one table. where i am there you will be also.

''wakeup''.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Throughout Revelation there is a hearing and turning to see what is heard. It is declared to John that the Lion of the tribe of Judah has come and John turns to see it and he sees a lamb as though slain. We know they are one in the same. This symbolic language conveys meaning about the nature and work of Christ in this instance. There are other such instances but this is also true of the 144,000. The number is proclaimed to John and he turns to see it and it is a multitude that no one can number. This is two descriptions of the same thing. None of this should be surprising as this was the promise to Abraham (an unnumbered multitude). And so we know that if we are Christ’s we are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Therefore I think it is more likely that the 144000 is symbolic of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles and a symbolic multitude (12x12x1000), which itself is a picture of the church corporate throughout the ages. Remember that God said that the OT people having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

I realize that this will likely not sit well with most folks who approach Revelation with a dispensational point of view, and not a parallel or recapitulating view of Revelation, but I thought I would share.

Respectfully

I think most people fail to realize a few things.

1. The people who first read this book would have been well versed in the book of Romans. Where paul makes it clear the nation of Isreal had been "set aside"
2. No matter which date one holds that the book of revelation was writtin (69 AD up to the 80's) When this book was written, Jerusalem would have already been destroyed, as Christ and Daniel had promised it would.

Using these two "knowns" it does not seem reasonable that God would still be using "Israel" in a symbolic nature. The world had already seen the great city and temple utterly destroyed, The nation of Israel was already being "scattered" throughout the world. WHy would they have thought John, or God, was writing this in a symbolic way? I can't see the reasoning.

Next. We finish Pauls letter to rome in chapter 11, we see that although Israel was set aside for awhile, while the gentiles (church) took over. Israel would be in the words of Paul:

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,as it is written:
“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

Yes, Israel is no longer a part of Gods plan, It has been taken by the church, But this blindness will be removed when the fullness of the gentiles (church) has come. (the church is finished, or removed, or is gone) Then God will restore Israel, And the nation will receive her Messiah, as her blindness is removed and she repents. (Jacob here can not be interpreted to be the church, or any gentile, for it clearly states the Time of Gentiles has come to an end.)

This is also prophesied by the OT prophet who said God will regather the dry bones, and restore jacob (Israel) to her land.

What we are seeing here in this "revelation" given to John of things to come, is this prophesy being fulfilled. These 144000 are the "firstfuits" of this prophesy being fulfilled. And through these 144000, the 2 witnesses (who are killed and resurrected) and all the stuff going on in the world (especially the armies gathering together to destroy Israel) the people of Israel repent. Calls out to God to save them, And Christ returns as promised.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

what he is saying is; just because you are an israelite does not mean that you can automaticly go in the kingdom: isaac is born by promise, o k. so we are born by promise also, the promise of christ to us. ''you will be in the kingdom with me,and we will sup together at one table. where i am there you will be also.

''wakeup''.

Just a question. Are you calvanist? I just wonder because you sound like you are speaking their theology.

Isaac is the Father of Jacob (Israel) as Abraham is the grandfather. Isaac is the child of promise, through whom the redeemer "Christ" will come.

Yes we will sup with Christ at the supper Table. But this does not negate Gods promises to Jacob, which Paul said will happen, and the OT prophesied will happen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again i will add. If Gods prophesies are not "literal" in nature and can by symbolically explained awy. God is no more a prophet than Nicodemus is. This is a dangerous thought

 

[VRJ]

REVELATION 14:4,5; "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (5) And in their mouth was found no gile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

defiled...means; to soil(fig): -defile. The word "women" is defined as; a woman; specifically a wife: -wife, woman. The word "virgins" is defined as; a maiden; by implication; an unmarried daughter: virgin. Strongs: 4394,3435,1135,3933

If one was to read this verse with these definitions it would read:

"These are they which were not defiled (spoiled) with women (a woman) for they are virgins (maidens, unmarried daughters).

This does not sound like Jewish male virgins.

Revelation 17:1-5; "And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: (2) With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. (3) So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (4) And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: (5) And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

MOTHER OF HARLOTS: This is a spiritual Babylon which is the 501C3 church- contracts made with the governmental institutions and has become levened. The church has been defiled, unclean, soiled and filthy. Rev. 18:4; says to come out of her my people and be ye not partakers of her sins.

The Bride of Christ is not defiled, unclean, soiled, or filthy. She is clean and pure...a chaste virgin as we can see in the following verse.

II Corinthians 11:2; " For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a "chaste virgin" to Christ."

chaste...means; clean. The word "virgin" of "chaste virgin" is exactly the same word that is used to describe the 144,000.

Let's read the verses again with this understanding:

"These are they which are not soiled (defiled) by going to the harlot church (woman), for they are maidens, a chaste virgin (virgins) unto Christ.

Again, this is not saying Jewish male virgins.

The whole concept of "virgins" has a feminine aspect to it. The church is commonly referred to being in the feminine as the Bride of Christ. The bride of Christ has within it both males and females saved by the grace of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

REVELATION 14:4,5; "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (5) And in their mouth was found no gile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

defiled...means; to soil(fig): -defile. The word "women" is defined as; a woman; specifically a wife: -wife, woman. The word "virgins" is defined as; a maiden; by implication; an unmarried daughter: virgin. Strongs: 4394,3435,1135,3933

If one was to read this verse with these definitions it would read:

"These are they which were not defiled (spoiled) with women (a woman) for they are virgins (maidens, unmarried daughters).

This does not sound like Jewish male virgins.

Revelation 17:1-5; "And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: (2) With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. (3) So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (4) And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: (5) And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

MOTHER OF HARLOTS: This is a spiritual Babylon which is the 501C3 church- contracts made with the governmental institutions and has become levened. The church has been defiled, unclean, soiled and filthy. Rev. 18:4; says to come out of her my people and be ye not partakers of her sins.

The Bride of Christ is not defiled, unclean, soiled, or filthy. She is clean and pure...a chaste virgin as we can see in the following verse.

II Corinthians 11:2; " For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a "chaste virgin" to Christ."

chaste...means; clean. The word "virgin" of "chaste virgin" is exactly the same word that is used to describe the 144,000.

Let's read the verses again with this understanding:

"These are they which are not soiled (defiled) by going to the harlot church (woman), for they are maidens, a chaste virgin (virgins) unto Christ.

Again, this is not saying Jewish male virgins.

The whole concept of "virgins" has a feminine aspect to it. The church is commonly referred to being in the feminine as the Bride of Christ. The bride of Christ has within it both males and females saved by the grace of God.

So we reject the words of Paul who states clearly Israel will repent. And reject all OT Prophesies concerning the repentance and restoration of the nation of Israel after the "times of the gentiles (church) had been completed?

And in doing so, Make God, a God who can not prophesy literal things. But things which could be interpreted in many ways so that one way or another, it can look like he was right. thus making him no better than nostridomus.

are we not insulting God by trying to make this the church with an allegorical interpretation, and making him no more a prophet than the false prophets he said we should not listen to?

 

[VRJ]

What you have missed is..............who is Israel? Are we to still lift up a physical construct that has been rejecting Christ for 2000 years which has had the spirit of anti-christ. God divorced the physical (as I have stated in other posts). Or now is it a spiritual construct? I say you are trying to lift up a physical. That is more than an insult. It is an abomination to God. His Son died once. It is finished at the cross to bring in a spiritual construct called Spiritual Israel.
There is a division. 144,000 who came out of the church.
There are those who are still sitting in the church called in Revelation the Multitude.
Both will are Israel. Both will come through the great tribulation. You see both in Revelation.

You may reject this and realize with great shame you have rejected the truth of doctrine. I hope you will look at your doctrine much closer. But, it is your choice.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What you have missed is..............who is Israel? Are we to still lift up a physical construct that has been rejecting Christ for 2000 years which has had the spirit of anti-christ. God divorced the physical (as I have stated in other posts). Or now is it a spiritual construct? I say you are trying to lift up a physical. That is more than an insult. It is an abomination to God. His Son died once. It is finished at the cross to bring in a spiritual construct called Spiritual Israel.
There is a division. 144,000 who came out of the church.
There are those who are still sitting in the church called in Revelation the Multitude.
Both will are Israel. Both will come through the great tribulation. You see both in Revelation.

You may reject this and realize with great shame you have rejected the truth of doctrine. I hope you will look at your doctrine much closer. But, it is your choice.

Paul answered this question.

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

They are still the elect chosen of God, God is not going to fail to keep ALL his promises made to this nation. Do we just ignore prophesy?


Yes Jesus died once. For all men. This does not remove the "national" promises made to isreal which have nothing to do with salvation.

There is no proof the 144000 came out of the church, It is speculation. God said they are from each tribe of isreal. Thjis is fact. To make it mean anything else, or to spiritualize it is to make god a liar.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You may reject this and realize with great shame you have rejected the truth of doctrine. I hope you will look at your doctrine much closer. But, it is your choice.

I hope you look at scripture most closely. And realise the salvation of mankind from a seed of abraham was just one of the promises God made through the covenant. God made many covenants concerning the nation which would come out. And if he does not keep these covenants, he is a liar.

 

[VRJ]

THE WOMAN IN THE WILDERNESS IS THE 144,000

Revelation 12:1; "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars."

This is a picture of spiritual Israel. The crown on her head with the twelve stars represents the twelve tribes.

The sun represents the following verses: (She is clothed with the Sun of righteousness) these are the children of the day which aren't appointed to wrath.

Malachi 4:2; "But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall."
Sun...is capitalized, it is referring to Jesus Christ. The woman is clothed with Jesus Christ. Galatians 3:27; " "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to ear, let him hear." Matthew 13:43
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." I Thess. 5:9

The moon under her feet is partially representative of the understanding of the new moon Sabbath and the feast of Israel, which are guided by the new moon. The moon under her feet partly is the understanding that in Jesus Christ the Sabbaths and feasts are fulfilled in Him. Jesus Christ is Lord of the Sabbath and when one is in Jesus they are in His Sabbath.

The law of keeping a Sabbath day was completely fulfilled when Christ went to the cross. We may keep the day if we choose, but the picture that we see with the moon under her feet, is the establishment that she is not under the law. The moon is also representive of the Multitude (man child) that is delivered of the woman which is under her feet.

under.(strongs 5259)....it means of place (beneath) in the comparative, it retains the same general applications, especially of inferior position or condition.
The 144,000 are the "firstfruits" unto God and to the Lamb. The Multitude comes after the 144,000 due to their inferior position or condition at the time of the sealing when the Mulititude was in lies and deception and did not love the Truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

THE WOMAN IN THE WILDERNESS IS THE 144,000

Revelation 12:1; "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars."

This is a picture of spiritual Israel. The crown on her head with the twelve stars represents the twelve tribes.

The sun represents the following verses: (She is clothed with the Sun of righteousness) these are the children of the day which aren't appointed to wrath.

Malachi 4:2; "But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall."
Sun...is capitalized, it is referring to Jesus Christ. The woman is clothed with Jesus Christ. Galatians 3:27; " "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to ear, let him hear." Matthew 13:43
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." I Thess. 5:9

The moon under her feet is partially representative of the understanding of the new moon Sabbath and the feast of Israel, which are guided by the new moon. The moon under her feet partly is the understanding that in Jesus Christ the Sabbaths and feasts are fulfilled in Him. Jesus Christ is Lord of the Sabbath and when one is in Jesus they are in His Sabbath.

The law of keeping a Sabbath day was completely fulfilled when Christ went to the cross. We may keep the day if we choose, but the picture that we see with the moon under her feet, is the establishment that she is not under the law. The moon is also representive of the Multitude (man child) that is delivered of the woman which is under her feet.

under.(strongs 5259)....it means of place (beneath) in the comparative, it retains the same general applications, especially of inferior position or condition.
The 144,000 are the "firstfruits" unto God and to the Lamb. The Multitude comes after the 144,000 due to their inferior position or condition at the time of the sealing when the Mulititude was in lies and deception and did not love the Truth.

Actually, I still disagree, It is not a picture of spiritual Israel, it is a picture of physical Israel. Again, why would we want to spiritualise a prophesy of God when ALL prophesy has been LITERALLY fulfilled. Did God change? I thought he was the same yesterday today and tomorrow. Why in this one instance has God all of a sudden changed and switched to a symbolic prophetic language?

 

[VRJ]

Because flesh and blood cannot get into heaven.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Because flesh and blood cannot get into heaven.

What does this have to do with Gods covenant to the nation of Israel (children of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob) as it pertains to them on the earth?

There is only one part of the Abrahamic covenant which deals with eternity. The rest deals with the physical nation of Israel. Do we just throw that covenant away? (this part of the covenant CAN NOT be fufilled by or in the church, because eternity is not in Question.) Or how about the Davidic covenant is thrown away unfulfilled?

If God does not fulfill these parts of these covenants, which he stated "I Will" which is an unconditional covenant, unlike the mosaic covenant when he said "If You (fill in the blank) "I will" which was a conditional covenant. Then God is a liar, and did not keep his word.

 

[stone]

BRO, WAKE UP, WHO ARE THESE IN REVELATION 6 V 9?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

BRO, WAKE UP, WHO ARE THESE IN REVELATION 6 V 9?

You all do realise that ANYONE who claims to be christian, does not receive the mark of the beast, will be brutally murdered through execution in this time period do we not?

I keep hearing people ask why we would not be willing to go through tribulation for God. What they do not realize is that this 7 year time period for people who chose to follow God and not this "world leader" is going to make what the 3rd Reich did to the Jews look like a walk in the park. That's why it is called GREAT tribulation.

ANyway, this has nothing to do with the 144000.

 

[wakeup]

I think most people fail to realize a few things.

1. The people who first read this book would have been well versed in the book of Romans. Where paul makes it clear the nation of Isreal had been "set aside"
2. No matter which date one holds that the book of revelation was writtin (69 AD up to the 80's) When this book was written, Jerusalem would have already been destroyed, as Christ and Daniel had promised it would.

Using these two "knowns" it does not seem reasonable that God would still be using "Israel" in a symbolic nature. The world had already seen the great city and temple utterly destroyed, The nation of Israel was already being "scattered" throughout the world. WHy would they have thought John, or God, was writing this in a symbolic way? I can't see the reasoning.

Next. We finish Pauls letter to rome in chapter 11, we see that although Israel was set aside for awhile, while the gentiles (church) took over. Israel would be in the words of Paul:

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,as it is written:
“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

Yes, Israel is no longer a part of Gods plan, It has been taken by the church, But this blindness will be removed when the fullness of the gentiles (church) has come. (the church is finished, or removed, or is gone) Then God will restore Israel, And the nation will receive her Messiah, as her blindness is removed and she repents. (Jacob here can not be interpreted to be the church, or any gentile, for it clearly states the Time of Gentiles has come to an end.)

This is also prophesied by the OT prophet who said God will regather the dry bones, and restore jacob (Israel) to her land.

What we are seeing here in this "revelation" given to John of things to come, is this prophesy being fulfilled. These 144000 are the "firstfuits" of this prophesy being fulfilled. And through these 144000, the 2 witnesses (who are killed and resurrected) and all the stuff going on in the world (especially the armies gathering together to destroy Israel) the people of Israel repent. Calls out to God to save them, And Christ returns as promised.

let me try to explain; israel the flesh,has rejected the mesiah,so the gospel is preached to the gentiles. when the preaching is done,christ will come to collect his people,they will be resurected,(jewish christians also) in a spirit body and they will be the priest and kings in the kingdom: who are they ruling over? well the flesh israel then and now will be brought back in the flesh,(only the resurved, according the election). they will be in the 1000yr reign(paradise) they will be taught the truth, and knowledge will cover the earth as the sea cover the earth. and the teaching will go all over the earth(the gentiles)
and every year they must come to jerusalem to celebrate the feast of tabernacle.zech.14:18.

''wakeup''.