yes in the 1000yr reign there will be no jew or gentile,we are now spititual jews children of abraham.in the 1000yr the jews that have been brought back,(by gods choce) will be taught,by the kings and priests(the resurected ones) and christ will now and again sup with us.like he did after his resurection,he ate and drank with his friends. remember he stayed on earth for 40 days.
a great multitude came out of great tribulation.
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yes in the 1000yr reign there will be no jew or gentile,we are now spititual jews children of abraham.in the 1000yr the jews that have been brought back,(by gods choce) will be taught,by the kings and priests(the resurected ones) and christ will now and again sup with us.like he did after his resurection,he ate and drank with his friends. remember he stayed on earth for 40 days.
E
The problem people are having is they can not separate spiritual and eternal things (there is no Jew or Gentile) from physical things on this earth (Jew and Gentile separate)
Your right, from the eternal perspective, there is no Jew or gentile, we are all "One" under Christ.
But on this earth, there IS Jew and Gentile. And in the 1000 years there will be Jew and Gentile. As Christ fulfills his earthly (not spiritual) promises to Abraham and David, Sits on Davids throne in the "City of David:" and rules the world from this throne. Israel, having been restored, will be in her land, having finally received all the "national promises" made by God through his covenants with her.
We will not be able to understand prophesy of this type unless we are willing to separate the "spiritual" aspect of eternal life, and the "physical aspect" of Gods promises to physical Israel
Your right, from the eternal perspective, there is no Jew or gentile, we are all "One" under Christ.
But on this earth, there IS Jew and Gentile. And in the 1000 years there will be Jew and Gentile. As Christ fulfills his earthly (not spiritual) promises to Abraham and David, Sits on Davids throne in the "City of David:" and rules the world from this throne. Israel, having been restored, will be in her land, having finally received all the "national promises" made by God through his covenants with her.
We will not be able to understand prophesy of this type unless we are willing to separate the "spiritual" aspect of eternal life, and the "physical aspect" of Gods promises to physical Israel
let me make this straight, my one and only teacher is the word of God, with the help of the holy spirit my eyes are openend.
my church can not be destroyed by an earth quake or tsunami, or anything. like many churches are demolished by those things.
my church will stand forever.(Jesus is the word of GOd)
''wakeup''.
there is a purpose for all those symbols; the purpose is so that only the seekers will understand the symbols, and interpret.one can not get there by just reading; one needs to meditate on the scriptures.
and put in place bits of the puzzle, to make one big picture. not one small picture here and another small picture there:and this is where they are at the moment, never getting anywhere. dont see this as boasting; no can never do that,its all given,nothing to boast about.
but sometimes its the only way to make it come across. i am willing to share it with other true seekers,that are not too attached to their religion. most love their religion so much that they ignore the truth.
therefore they have become prisoners of their faith, they are caught in a net, and can not escape. this is the reason why God is so angry with those shepherds,God calls their land desolate.this is sad. all those years; for what? the problem is, the sheep loves it that way,
they are comfortable, and secure. you have a wonderful one.
''wakeup''.
isaac was born by Gods promise to abraham; saying to abraham that he will have a son,sarah could not have children,she was barren,after abraham waited so long finely the promise is fulfilled. rom9:7 ---but in isaac shal thy seed be called.vers8.---but the children of the promise are counted for the seed(Jesus) he promised us also that we will be his children if we stay faithful to him.
E
We are not talking about parables. We are talking about Literal prophesy. Which has never been given in a parable or symbolic form.
When God gave prophesy in the OT, he did not try to hide anything, or keep it from anyone, He gave a prophesy which said in this time frame "which could be days, weeks, months or years) this will happen. People could hear him and believe or reject. Yet at the time in which the literal prophesy was said to occur, it occurred. then no one could say, well he just got lucky, he just had a good guess. (which was the case for a false prophet or false God) Since every time God makes a prophesy, it comes true 100 % of the time, in the exact what God said it was, He must be God.
This was for the Man of God to strengthen his faith. The non believer (Jew or Gentile) to look and say, Hey this God is right 100 % of the time. My God, or prophets may get it right sometime, but even then only if we look at it from a figurative perspective. Other than that. My God or prophet is NEVER RIGHT. which again is Gods purpose. to prove to the world he is God.
A parable is different, It is a symbolic thing which represents a doctrinal truth. God does use this to keep truth from those who are not looking for it. But Prophesy has NEVER been used in this sense. It is for the non believer as well as the believer (even though non believers can still harden their heart to these literal prophesies coming true.
Yeah I agree with this. And people, because of their religion and the faith they have, refuse to take prophesy the way God intended prophesy to be taken, because in doing so their belief system is in danger, they they must take prophesy in a symbolic way, (which God never intended or used it in this sense) in order to make their belief system stand.
This is a scary and dangerous thing to do.
1
I appreciate your approach here…First I am not arguing from the outside-in. In other words I don’t look for the world around to define what the Bible is saying. I think that approach brings a preconceived idea to the Bible instead of the Bible defining the ideas.
However, to your point, I think my explanation which is based on the grammatical tool that John uses in Revelation is still of great importance to the Jews of that day being called to Christ, the Jews of today being called to Christ and as well as to us Gentiles.
The importance is this: God is faithful, don’t despair. He is through all time bringing his church both Jew and Gentile to salvation. This is the promise to Abraham and to his children of the promise that we will be a people beyond numbering. Revelation is for both Gentile and Israel.
In order to avoid getting into a whole other discussion about mine and your differences in eschatology, I’ll just simply say that I don’t have any problem with this in the sense that this is what your eschatology demands you read into that passage. I on the other hand just disagree based on my own eschatology. The fullness does not demand a rapturing away of Christians, it simply means that there is no further conversion among the gentile and it certainly doesn’t preclude Gentiles from being the means by which the salvation message comes to Israel. The end at that point I think is eminent but it could be 10 days or 10 years. As it was in Noah's day there did come a time when people no longer responded to Noah, a "preacher of righteousness," The end was not immediate.
Respectfully
However, to your point, I think my explanation which is based on the grammatical tool that John uses in Revelation is still of great importance to the Jews of that day being called to Christ, the Jews of today being called to Christ and as well as to us Gentiles.
The importance is this: God is faithful, don’t despair. He is through all time bringing his church both Jew and Gentile to salvation. This is the promise to Abraham and to his children of the promise that we will be a people beyond numbering. Revelation is for both Gentile and Israel.
In order to avoid getting into a whole other discussion about mine and your differences in eschatology, I’ll just simply say that I don’t have any problem with this in the sense that this is what your eschatology demands you read into that passage. I on the other hand just disagree based on my own eschatology. The fullness does not demand a rapturing away of Christians, it simply means that there is no further conversion among the gentile and it certainly doesn’t preclude Gentiles from being the means by which the salvation message comes to Israel. The end at that point I think is eminent but it could be 10 days or 10 years. As it was in Noah's day there did come a time when people no longer responded to Noah, a "preacher of righteousness," The end was not immediate.
Respectfully
1
Hopefully not to frustrate you but to help you understand (not agree with) the other side. "Not all Israel is true Israel." This is the way it has been since the beginning. There is a physical representation just as there is with the church but as it is with the Church so it is with Israel. God has commanded that the wheat and tares remain together until the end.
In Revelation 12:1 true Israel (the faithful) is represented, and on the other side of the ascension remains true Israel.
Sidebar...In a sense whether you are talking about the OT or the NT you are speaking of an Israel that is made up of Gentiles and Jews. Even in the OT the gentiles were brought in and some of these gentiles were even in the lineage of Christ. The number of saved Gentiles in the OT was limited until the Spirit would come and the one who deceived the nations would be cast out.
In Revelation 12:1 true Israel (the faithful) is represented, and on the other side of the ascension remains true Israel.
Sidebar...In a sense whether you are talking about the OT or the NT you are speaking of an Israel that is made up of Gentiles and Jews. Even in the OT the gentiles were brought in and some of these gentiles were even in the lineage of Christ. The number of saved Gentiles in the OT was limited until the Spirit would come and the one who deceived the nations would be cast out.
they use a certain tactic; if they get bogged down with certain scriptures,they just say, oh that is sumbolic, the beauty about the bible is: if your interpretation is wrong;you will get bogged down,and you have to try again. it is to do with honesty,can not force it in, if it does not fit. go back to the drawing board.
E
I understand where you ar coming from, thanks.
Again, to help you understand where I am coming from
From the eternal perspective, not only the part of the covenant between God and Abraham, but Gods covenant with mankind. There is neither jew or Gentile. As you correctly said, even Gentiles were saved in the times of the law. From the eternal perspective, there has never been Jew or gentile and we agree on this.
The part I am trying to show, is that not all of Gods covenants to Abraham, and later david, have an eternal perspective in mind. Most of the se covenants dealt with the temporal (on earth) promises to the nation of Israel (or the seed) where there IS jew and their IS gentile. These covenants are not looking at an "eternal " aspect where there is no difference between jew and Gentile. But specific literal promises God has made to the "nation of Israel" here on Earth. and should be looked at this way, not from an eternal perspective.
This is what Paul was saying when he said that Israel has been set aside for awhile, because of her blindness. But when The time of the Gentiles are completed. The blindness of Israel will be removed, and she will be restored. Thus God will keep his (earlthy or temporal) promise which he made to Abraham and David.
Remember the one of the main prophesies concerning king messiah:
Zechariah 14:9, 16
9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one
16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
This speaks of the post tribulation earth, where the only king on earth Is the messiah. Unlike today where each nation has a king (or president) and those who survived the tribulation and entered the kingdom age who are gentiles, (the nations who came against Jerusalem to destroy it) will come to jerusalem every year to Honor the real King (Jesus) who is sitting on the throne of David, having fulfilled his covenant with David.
Again, to help you understand where I am coming from
From the eternal perspective, not only the part of the covenant between God and Abraham, but Gods covenant with mankind. There is neither jew or Gentile. As you correctly said, even Gentiles were saved in the times of the law. From the eternal perspective, there has never been Jew or gentile and we agree on this.
The part I am trying to show, is that not all of Gods covenants to Abraham, and later david, have an eternal perspective in mind. Most of the se covenants dealt with the temporal (on earth) promises to the nation of Israel (or the seed) where there IS jew and their IS gentile. These covenants are not looking at an "eternal " aspect where there is no difference between jew and Gentile. But specific literal promises God has made to the "nation of Israel" here on Earth. and should be looked at this way, not from an eternal perspective.
This is what Paul was saying when he said that Israel has been set aside for awhile, because of her blindness. But when The time of the Gentiles are completed. The blindness of Israel will be removed, and she will be restored. Thus God will keep his (earlthy or temporal) promise which he made to Abraham and David.
Remember the one of the main prophesies concerning king messiah:
Zechariah 14:9, 16
9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one
16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
This speaks of the post tribulation earth, where the only king on earth Is the messiah. Unlike today where each nation has a king (or president) and those who survived the tribulation and entered the kingdom age who are gentiles, (the nations who came against Jerusalem to destroy it) will come to jerusalem every year to Honor the real King (Jesus) who is sitting on the throne of David, having fulfilled his covenant with David.
Please correct me if i'm wrong; but does not the word Gentile mean Nation???
Talking physical here, is Not Isreal at least 1/2 the nations on the planet??? with the land of Judeah in the middle east, that call themselves Isreal; nothing more than The House of Judah, 1 part of Israel??? That in 1948 was prophesyed, that at that time, Both the Good and Bad Fig would go forth from??? With those who claim to be of Our Brother Judah, But who indeed LIE and are in FACT of the synagouge of satan. Calling themselves ISRAEL, does seem like a good place to start. The BAD ones; don't forget that he Good Ones are there to; How Blessed We ARE
Forever in Christ
Talking physical here, is Not Isreal at least 1/2 the nations on the planet??? with the land of Judeah in the middle east, that call themselves Isreal; nothing more than The House of Judah, 1 part of Israel??? That in 1948 was prophesyed, that at that time, Both the Good and Bad Fig would go forth from??? With those who claim to be of Our Brother Judah, But who indeed LIE and are in FACT of the synagouge of satan. Calling themselves ISRAEL, does seem like a good place to start. The BAD ones; don't forget that he Good Ones are there to; How Blessed We ARE
Forever in Christ
1
I don't have any problem with what you are saying until you get to the Zechariah passage and we will likely just disagree. You said:
I believe this to be a literal prophecy of the first coming of Christ.
Earlier in the passage it says: "And in that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and half of them toward the western sea; in both summer and winter it shall occur. And the LORD shall be King over all the earth"
This is coming of the Holy Spirit as Jesus said that rivers of living water would flow from the people when the Spirit came. And there is further promise that the nations will come in as Christ even said that if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me - which is the latter part of the passage you quote. This celebration of Feast of the booths also fits with the Revelation 12 passage where the church is taken into the wilderness to be nourished after the ascension of Christ. This is not figurative this is literal.
I suppose in the end the question is which literal reality do people live in. The spirit or the flesh.
There is the belief that the eternal heavenly reality gives purpose and meaning to this fleeting world - that Christ has brought his Kingdom to earth with his arrival, that he has given us the keys to the kingdom, that we have but to ask the King of kings will grant it to us, that we are given power on earth in His name, that as Paul says that we are presently seated with Him in the Heavens, and on and on.
There is the earthly reality that believes that this fleeting earth is what holds importance and defines what the Spirit is doing.
To the latter I only say that Ecclesiastes was written to underscore the inability of man to discern "reality" from the world "under the sun." God has placed eternity in man's heart except no man may find it...
Respectfully submitted
Earlier in the passage it says: "And in that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and half of them toward the western sea; in both summer and winter it shall occur. And the LORD shall be King over all the earth"
This is coming of the Holy Spirit as Jesus said that rivers of living water would flow from the people when the Spirit came. And there is further promise that the nations will come in as Christ even said that if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me - which is the latter part of the passage you quote. This celebration of Feast of the booths also fits with the Revelation 12 passage where the church is taken into the wilderness to be nourished after the ascension of Christ. This is not figurative this is literal.
I suppose in the end the question is which literal reality do people live in. The spirit or the flesh.
There is the belief that the eternal heavenly reality gives purpose and meaning to this fleeting world - that Christ has brought his Kingdom to earth with his arrival, that he has given us the keys to the kingdom, that we have but to ask the King of kings will grant it to us, that we are given power on earth in His name, that as Paul says that we are presently seated with Him in the Heavens, and on and on.
There is the earthly reality that believes that this fleeting earth is what holds importance and defines what the Spirit is doing.
To the latter I only say that Ecclesiastes was written to underscore the inability of man to discern "reality" from the world "under the sun." God has placed eternity in man's heart except no man may find it...
Respectfully submitted
S
Nobody except for God the Father knows the future in detail for certain. Whether or not there will be a future great tribulation and how this will be is uncertain, because "no one knows the day nor the hour". Tribulations will happen always and up until the end of the ages; but whether or not they will get worse and worse, is uncertain. It all depends on what the book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation mean, and these books have been sealed up for the end times, and no one on earth except maybe a very few elect monks and priests of God and a few select Eastern Orthodox theologians know what these books mean. The meaning has been hidden for 2000 years from the vast majority of Christendom. Hence all the false and many contradictory and some outright heretical and very, very, very bad, (mad) misinterpretations of the book of Revelation. Take care.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
E
Again I see where your coming from, but there is a few reasons I disagree.
1. Neither the Holy Spirit or Jesus has been king over all nations.
2. Even before the america's. All nations had kings, Even the Roman Empire did not reign supreme over all the Earth. So we could not say that the pope fulfilled this prophesy. Yet this passage states there will one king supreme over all the earth. Jesus.
3. It says those from all nations who survived the attack on Jerusalem (this would be Gentiles) will come and worship the king once a year (much like Mary and Joseph had to go to Jerusalem for the census. This this could not be AD 70. for the Romans do not now. or have the ever, gone to Jerusalem to worship. And I believe the attack against Jerusalem here is Armageddon, Because it is then that all nations will aline itself against Jerusalem to attack her, And this brings about the return of Christ, who destroys the enemy.
1. Neither the Holy Spirit or Jesus has been king over all nations.
2. Even before the america's. All nations had kings, Even the Roman Empire did not reign supreme over all the Earth. So we could not say that the pope fulfilled this prophesy. Yet this passage states there will one king supreme over all the earth. Jesus.
3. It says those from all nations who survived the attack on Jerusalem (this would be Gentiles) will come and worship the king once a year (much like Mary and Joseph had to go to Jerusalem for the census. This this could not be AD 70. for the Romans do not now. or have the ever, gone to Jerusalem to worship. And I believe the attack against Jerusalem here is Armageddon, Because it is then that all nations will aline itself against Jerusalem to attack her, And this brings about the return of Christ, who destroys the enemy.
E
Rev 1: 3
3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
If what you said is true Scott. The only people who could be blessed are the few you stated know. No ono else could be blessed.
God has NEVER given us things which we could never understand. He certainly did not give us this book, when no one could read it and understand. He also said numerous times, "he who has an ear let him hear" now how could we hear if we have no way to understand.
3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
If what you said is true Scott. The only people who could be blessed are the few you stated know. No ono else could be blessed.
God has NEVER given us things which we could never understand. He certainly did not give us this book, when no one could read it and understand. He also said numerous times, "he who has an ear let him hear" now how could we hear if we have no way to understand.