A house divided will not stand

[Baptistrw]

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. Matt 7:21-27 (KJV)


Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matt 7:15-20 (KJV)


Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Amos 3:3 (KJV)


So when we should support their causes of someone who belives in a false doctrine (or even false gospel) and won't repent as long as they name the name of Christ?

 

[BLC]

I heard someone preach on this awhile back. Interesting stuff, repentance is usually implied when one believes on Christ.

The Holy Spirit can convict the unbeliever of sin, whereby they believe unto salvation and repent of specific sins in their life at that same time. That happens. For others, conviction of sin comes after salvation as God deals with them as an individual. God deals with each believer according to wisdom and that wisdom is justified of her children (Mt 11:19, Lk 7:35). When we believe we turn from ourself and unto Christ to be born again of the word and of the Spirit. When we turn to Christ, our direction changes and we recieve what God has provided for us through Christ. When the Holy Spirit enters our life the instant we believe, He is not only there to convict of sin but first and foremost He is our Comforter (Jn 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:7). He is there to guide and lead us into all things pertaining to righteousness and true godliness. Think of the wretched lives that are racked by sin and when they turn to Christ they are cleansed of ALL sin right on the spot, set free, because God has purged and cleansed their conscience by the blood of Christ (Heb 9:14) and does not impute one single sin ever. What a sense of great freedom for some to be cleansed instantly. For others they believe and trust Christ and they are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8,9).

When we believe we still have an old sin nature and all the same propensity for sin that we had before salvation. Now we have to trust Jesus Christ, take up our cross, cast all our care on Him and let God love us. When sin rears its ugly head, we turn to Christ for grace to keep us from sin and if we sin we confess it right away. The new believer does not have the word of God dwelling richly in their heart (Col 3:16), but they have to grow in it. Even David as a mature believer, hid the word in his heart to keep him from sin (Ps 119:11). Preaching repentance has its place, but we are to preach Christ and Him crucified, because that is what converts the sinner (1Cor 1:23, 2:2). Repentance can not give any man grace, but the Spirit of grace can (Heb 10:29, Zech 12:!0). Repentance can not transform a man, but a man can be renewed by the transformation of his mind through recieving and living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God (Rom 1:2, Mt 4:4).

Just a question - I wonder how many of us specifically repented of the sin of pride, when we first believed or did that come later?

 

[Baptistrw]

Obviously, the churches which Paul addressed in his letters contained individuals of varying opinions and beilefs. Yet he still asks them to remain in unity and overcome their divisions. There will always be heresies in the church even within one individual denomination or church. But God lets the tares grow with the wheat until the harvest. And it is God's job to separate the tares from the wheat not ours. So I see no harm in people of different denominations coming together.

And that's one of the reasons why we will go into an apostasy before the Lord returns rather than a revival. Truth is far more important than unity and with that division is better than compromise.

 

[MahogonySnail]

There is only one truth so there should only be one church.
You are promoting divisions which is clearly against scripture and is basically a carnal way of looking at things. I believe the bible teaches that love is the most important (see 1 Corinthians 13) and with love comes unity. The scripture basically warns about three types of people to avoid : judaizers, gnostics and the immoral. I can't really draw such clear distinctions between Baptists and Lutherans , presbyterians, anglicans or even Catholics for example. So there should really be no excuse why they are divided.

 

[Baptistrw]

There is only one truth so there should only be one church.
You are promoting divisions which is clearly against scripture and is basically a carnal way of looking at things. I believe the bible teaches that love is the most important (see 1 Corinthians 13) and with love comes unity. The scripture basically warns about three types of people to avoid : judaizers, gnostics and the immoral. I can't really draw such clear distinctions between Baptists and Lutherans , presbyterians, anglicans or even Catholics for example. So there should really be no excuse why they are divided.

I would say you need to do some research then.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Research about?

 

[Baptistrw]

Research about?

Doctrines in denominations.

 

[MahogonySnail]

That's the problem, we need to get over the different doctrines the differences are usually trivial, stop seeing the Baptists, the Lutherans, the Methodist or whatever (that is carnal) and see the Christians.

 

[Baptistrw]

That's the problem, we need to get over the different doctrines the differences are usually trivial, stop seeing the Baptists, the Lutherans, the Methodist or whatever (that is carnal) and see the Christians.

In willfull ignorance is no way to live. Many groups you named are not Biblical Christians which I find humorous.

 

[Miah45]

In all my years on the mission field in some of the darkest corners of the world, in all my years working across many denominations trying to find the beauty in each expression of God's wonderful body (the Church)... NEVER have I been so saddened... so ashamed by the bickering and insistence on right doctrine above the greatest commandments Jesus gave us. I should tell people on this site that they should be ashamed but I won't ... lest I too judge, but better it come from God whom we ALL profess to love so deeply. Really. Someone starts a post encouraging us to look past differences and we start World War 3 again. How we have forgotten!!

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[roaringkitten]

Here is another observation that is worthy for consideration in relationship to 'the disciple that Jesus loved'. You will not find any form of the verb 'repent' or the noun 'repentance' in any of John's writings. You won't find similiar words like 'turn, turned or turning' that were translated from the same root word either. Now you would think one of the original apostles and disciples of Christ, that walked with Him, was taught by Him and heard Christ preach on the subject of repentance including the parables, would have something to say about repentance, but he didn't. He spoke lots on 'believing', on 'love' and what to do 'if we sin', but nothing on repentance. Do you think that John missed something from the Holy Spirit in writing the gospel, that is so important to the gospel, that by itself as a gospel could mislead someone by leaving out repentance?

Could anyone, that just read the gospel of John, become truly saved according to a gospel that has left out repentance, a core principle to being saved and forgiven of sin? How can anyone be saved without 'turning' or 'repenting' from sin? Can we only 'believe' and be saved without 'repentance'? If not, then John did not write a complete gospel. If that is true we should reject that gospel right away.

Of course we believe that the gospel of John is inspired by God and many have turned to Christ according to the message that John conveys in his gospel. There are no mistakes, nothing left out and it is complete in and of itself to be included in the canon of scriptures along with his epistles. The observation is true and those that put such an emphasis on 'repentance' need to include this finding in their interpretation and in doctrine and in their preaching concerning 'repentance'.

Couple of examples found in scripture. The thief that hung next to Christ believed and was found with Christ in Paradise. Not one of the disciples of Christ is ever recorded repenting of any sin, though they may have, but it did not make it into the scriptures. Even Peter after denying the LORD, three times, was not recorded repenting of his sin of denying Christ. Please show me where the Apostle Paul had repented of sin. Even after hid dilemma with the law of sin in (Rom 7), you won't find him repenting but you will find him confessing truth starting with 'NO CONDEMNATION' in (Rom 8:1) and exploding with no one being able to separate from the love of God.


Bingo BLC! Very well written...There is heresy concerning "repentance" today...........I made a thread on "Biblical repentance" which explains what it means. Its to no surprise many Christians think that falling back into sins today can get them lost again because they misunderstood what "repentance" means.....When you hear someone say you must turn from your sins(to be understood as-stop sinning) as a prerequisite to coming to Christ, they are REQUIRING by logic GOOD WORKS to come to Christ.......Repentance is never mentioned in John as you stated! So repentance really is part of believing!!! Evidence of believing is a hatred for sin, Godly living.....

 

[roaringkitten]

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. Matt 7:21-27

Many people today think "the Will of the Father" means to obey God(which is works), which by the way, is a fruit of salvation.

Here is the answer to the passage:

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:40

 

[roaringkitten]

That passage in Matthew btw, refers to those false converts who thought they worked their way into heaven by doing good works! That is pride and boasting that God warned about:


“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[MahogonySnail]

In willfull ignorance is no way to live. Many groups you named are not Biblical Christians which I find humorous.

Division isn't really something to laugh about. And highlighting the differences does not help anyone.
If you can't cope with different denominations here on earth,
you will get a nasty culture shock when you get to heaven.
Unless you believe only those in heaven will be baptists.
Now that is humorous .

 

[roaringkitten]

The ONLY thing that makes someone NOT SAVED is by not believing on Christ as the Savior ALONE for salvation! Add works to Christ, require works to come to Christ, etc as the gospel is a surefire way to the lake of fire....And many people are headed there unknowingly, thinking they are saved!

So apart from denomination differences, they MUST hold to the one true gospel of Jesus Christ(Galatians 1:6-9)...What baptistrw has said is quite true about reproving unsound doctrine.....It is better to be divided over truth than be united in error......

 

[Baptistrw]

.It is better to be divided over truth than be united in error......

Sounds like a quite from Dr. Adrian Rogers I heard earlier!

 

[MahogonySnail]

The saying doesn't really make sense because truth unites, not divides. To be divided over truth is really an oxymoron.

 

[Baptistrw]

The saying doesn't really make sense because truth unites, not divides. To be divided over truth is really an oxymoron.

No, truth definitely divides. As is seen clearly on this chat forum.

 

[MahogonySnail]

But we are all united by the same truth. And it is that unity which we must strive for. We can either divide ourselves over the differences, or unite over the commonalities.

 

[Sinnner]

The ONLY thing that makes someone NOT SAVED is by not believing on Christ as the Savior ALONE for salvation! Add works to Christ, require works to come to Christ, etc as the gospel is a surefire way to the lake of fire....And many people are headed there unknowingly, thinking they are saved!

So apart from denomination differences, they MUST hold to the one true gospel of Jesus Christ(Galatians 1:6-9)...What baptistrw has said is quite true about reproving unsound doctrine.....It is better to be divided over truth than be united in error......

All anyone can do when they first get saved is believe, no works. But according to you if they later rely on works they will go to hell. By your own words you have contradicted yourself. And who are you to judge who is saved and not saved?