A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES
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John 16: 7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
How many today profess to be saved but have never experienced the power of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment? The can be no hesitation when the reality of condemnation is made real to the soul.
Verse 13 is important to those who want the have the Holy Spirit work outside of revealed scripture.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
How many today profess to be saved but have never experienced the power of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment? The can be no hesitation when the reality of condemnation is made real to the soul.
Verse 13 is important to those who want the have the Holy Spirit work outside of revealed scripture.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
No, what you gave me actually REEKS from: I don't know the answer, so I'll try to bluff.
I asked for a description of what the True GOSPEL, actually is. You gave me a HISTORY LESSON.
I am asking for what in Scripture constitutes the GOSPEL MESSAGE, How You Are SAVED, When HE SAID we are SAVED.
From the looks of what you posted, it appears YOU DO NOT KNOW what the GOSPEL actually is.
For YOUR information the in Acts 2:38 there is NO WATER INVOLVED IN THAT VERSE. YES as part of their willingness to obey, they did submit to Christian Water Baptism, BUT THAT WAS AFTER THEY LET THE HOLY SPIRIT IMMERSE THEM (BAPTIZE) them into the Spiritually Body of CHRIST.
Here is the Baptism in the Acts 2:38 VERSE.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (NKJV)
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
EVEN THE THIEF ON THE CROSS, WAS INSTANTLY MADE PART OF SPIRITUAL BODY OF CHRIST, THE MOMENT HE REPENTED.
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When that conviction came upon me, the night I was saved; I wept and cried for hours, as I continually cried out to HIM for forgiveness for my whole sinful lifestyle. It was wave, after wave of guilt that washed over me. I know what you mean, when people say they are saved and never experienced that deep, deep conviction of sin.
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Okay in the interest of expanding this study, I have a serious question. Now you know that I believe Tongues is an earthly Language. Would command of the specific Language "Syriac (Aramaic)", have included SPELLING?
That is the Language that Jesus spoke from the CROSS, when he said: Eli eli, lamna shabaktani !
Matthew 27:46 (NCV)
46 About three o’clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?“
This means, “My God, my God, why have you rejected me?“
NOTICE the N was dropped from the original word lamna, and the CH in the middle, is instead of a K, and the second letter is an H, which could have been two ways to spell the word, or the understanding of the TRANSLATOR? The Spelling between Eli and Eloi, is a language issue, because only place it appears in the Greek: Septuagint - Judges 5:5 - my God - Ελωι - Eloi.
I do not DOUBT the education of Jesus because He would have been in training for the Priesthood and Training in Syriac (Aramaic) would have been MANDATORY. In fact when Jesus was 12 years old, He SAT with the Elders at the TEMPLE, who were apparently testing HIM, and they were VERY IMPRESSED.
Luke 2:42-49 (ASV)
42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up after the custom of the feast;
43 and when they had fulfilled the days, as they were returning, the boy Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and his parents knew it not;
44 but supposing him to be in the company, they went a day's journey; and they sought for him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance:
45 and when they found him not, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking for him.
46 And it came to pass, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both hearing them, and asking them questions:
47 and all that heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.
48 And when they saw him, they were astonished; and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? knew ye not that I must be in my Father's house?
So I am not questioning the education of JESUS, but it seems that common people, did not have a requirement to STUDY the Language Syriac (Aramaic):
Mark 15:35 (ASV)
35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elijah.
There is the MAJOR CLUE, that Not everyone in Israel had to study the Language Syriac (Aramaic).
SO was Matthew and Mark required to study it in their YOUTH ? ? ?
IF NOT, where did they get the Spelling ? ? ?
Could the spelling be PART of the TONGUES that they SPOKE ? ? ?
That is the Language that Jesus spoke from the CROSS, when he said: Eli eli, lamna shabaktani !
Matthew 27:46 (NCV)
46 About three o’clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?“
This means, “My God, my God, why have you rejected me?“
NOTICE the N was dropped from the original word lamna, and the CH in the middle, is instead of a K, and the second letter is an H, which could have been two ways to spell the word, or the understanding of the TRANSLATOR? The Spelling between Eli and Eloi, is a language issue, because only place it appears in the Greek: Septuagint - Judges 5:5 - my God - Ελωι - Eloi.
I do not DOUBT the education of Jesus because He would have been in training for the Priesthood and Training in Syriac (Aramaic) would have been MANDATORY. In fact when Jesus was 12 years old, He SAT with the Elders at the TEMPLE, who were apparently testing HIM, and they were VERY IMPRESSED.
Luke 2:42-49 (ASV)
42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up after the custom of the feast;
43 and when they had fulfilled the days, as they were returning, the boy Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and his parents knew it not;
44 but supposing him to be in the company, they went a day's journey; and they sought for him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance:
45 and when they found him not, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking for him.
46 And it came to pass, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both hearing them, and asking them questions:
47 and all that heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.
48 And when they saw him, they were astonished; and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? knew ye not that I must be in my Father's house?
So I am not questioning the education of JESUS, but it seems that common people, did not have a requirement to STUDY the Language Syriac (Aramaic):
Mark 15:35 (ASV)
35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elijah.
There is the MAJOR CLUE, that Not everyone in Israel had to study the Language Syriac (Aramaic).
SO was Matthew and Mark required to study it in their YOUTH ? ? ?
IF NOT, where did they get the Spelling ? ? ?
Could the spelling be PART of the TONGUES that they SPOKE ? ? ?
This phrase has been the victim of the “telephone game” – it started in Aramaic and got changed to Hebrew and went through Greek.
Aramaic was the language of first century Jews living in Judea and the surrounding areas. It was also the first language of the Jews in the Eastern Diaspora. In the West it was Greek.
That phrase in rendered (via Greek) in one Gospel in its Aramaic form, in the other Gospel where it appears, it’s the Hebrew form – thus the differences.
In Galilean Aramaic, the phrase was likely rendered as: אלהי אלהי למה שבקתני / əlahí əlahí ləmáh šəvaqtáni. Not really close to what we see in the Bible today.
Greek had no way to express some of the sounds found in Aramaic; thus, they used the closest sounds they had. For example, there’s no way to render an ‘h’ sound between vowels in Greek, so it was dropped altogether. There was no way to represent the ‘sh’ sound (š), so ‘s’ would need to do (in Modern Greek, the ‘s’ actually does have a bit of an ‘sh’ sound). The Aramaic ‘t’ was a bit softer than the Greek ‘tau’, so it was rendered with ‘theta’. The ‘shwa sound’ (upside down ‘e’ above) was problematic as well.
The rendering in Latin letters has gone through a number of changes as well as trying to render the (incorrect) Greek into Latin letters.
Not sure what you mean by spelling with relation to tongues – Biblical tongues are languages, so they would have been written (assuming a given language had an orthography).Modern tongues are spoken only. It is interesting to note that other forms of non-Christian glossolalia are written (so-called Light Language is said to be a written language among its practitioners).
Syriac is what one of the dialects of Aramaic developed into – it is a much later language (so when you see the YouTube videos on learning the Lord’s Prayer in Aramaic – it’s not really Aramaic, it’s Syriac.
If a person could read Hebrew, they could, in theory, also read Aramaic. The question may be, did the average Joe on the street know how to read and write?
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2 Timothy 1:9 (CSBBible)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
NICE TRY, so you think we are better than O.T. Believers, but JESUS SAID "FOLLOW ME". So everyone His Water Baptism would be an example to follow.
So everyone has a reason to Follow HIM into the waters of baptism, AFTER THEY ARE BAPTIZED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, immersing them into the spiritual body of CHRIST.
Psalm 119:33-34 (HCSB)
33 Teach me, LORD, the meaning of Your statutes, and I will always keep them.
34 Help me understand Your instruction, and I will obey it and follow it with all my heart.
Isaiah 51:1 (NKJV)
1 "Listen to Me, you who follow after righteousness, You who seek the LORD:
. . .
Psalm 51:11 (ESV)
11 Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Mark 10:21 (NKJV)
21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me."
Matthew 16:24 (ESV)
24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Luke 9:23 (ESV)
23 And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
John 1:11-13 (ESV)
11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
DO HE NOT THINK O.T. Saints that did receive HIM, should be considered the same as those of the N.T. Saints that receive HIM?
John 10:16 (NASB)
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold [the O.T. Assembly]; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. [at the Rapture]
The people He is talking are the last O.T. SAINTS. HE CALLS THEM SHEEP, the same as He calls us SHEEP. GUESS WHAT ELSE ? ? ?
I know you can look this up, but the WORD CHURCH was NEVER used in the Bible when it was originally published. HE ALSO CALLED US THE ASSEMBLY.
Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly [the N.T. Fold], and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; [the O.T. Assembly is HIS first Fold]
Acts 10:34-36 (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
TIME TO LOSE YOUR ATTITUDE OF LOOKING DOWN ON ISRAEL, and YOUR PREJUDICE AGAINST THEM. AT the RAPTURE we will be ONE FLOCK. YES, that means THEY are Part of the Bride of Christ, and are Part of the DEAD IN CHRIST that will be RAISED FIRST.
O.T. ASSEMBLY = Those who did Believe God would send a Messiah.
N.T. ASSEMBLY = Those who did Believe God DID send a Messiah.
That is the SAME FAITH as ABRAHAM.
So be prepared to move over on those heavenly PEWS, to make ROOM for OUR Jewish Believers of the O.T.
Malachi 3:6 (KJV)
6 For I am the LORD, I change not;
therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
I forgot a couple verses that are CRITICALLY IMPORTANT to PROVING that GOD IS NOT FINISHED WITH ISRAEL. AND NO, we are Not Spiritual Israelites. HE Continually calls us GENTILE Believers. LOOK IT UP. BUT YOU WILL SAY WE ARE GRAFTED IN, which means YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN ENGLISH WALNUT TREES GROWING IN CALIFORNIA. They are Grafted in to BLACK WALNUT ROOTS, and NEVER produce BLACK WALNUTS. So JUST because you are Grafted in DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE PART OF THE BLACK WALNUT ROOTS.
They do that because Black Walnuts have a DEEPER root system, so they can get more water, and Black Walnuts have more resistance to disease and are more resistant to insects that burrow into the roots. BUT THEY NEVER BECOME BLACK WALNUT TREES.
Verses that PERTAIN to ISRAEL, that PROVE God is not finished with Israel.
Jeremiah 23:7-8 (HCSB)
7 “The days are coming”—the LORD’s declaration—“when it will no longer be said, ‘As the LORD lives who brought the Israelites from the land of Egypt,’
8 but, ‘As the LORD lives, who brought and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the land of the north and from all the other countries where I had banished them.’ They will dwell once more in their own land.”
2 Chronicles 30:8 (NIV)
8 Do not be stiff-necked, as your fathers were; submit to the LORD. Come to the sanctuary, which he has consecrated forever. Serve the LORD your God, so that his fierce anger will turn away from you.
Psalm 103:7-9 (HCSB)
7 He revealed His ways to Moses, His deeds to the people of Israel.
8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger and rich in faithful love.
9 He will not always accuse ⌊us⌋ or be angry forever.
Isaiah 62:5 (ESV)
5 For as a young man marries a young woman, so shall your sons marry you, and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you.
YES, that means the sum total of both the O.T. Saints and the N.T. Saints are going to be BRIDE of Christ.
They do that because Black Walnuts have a DEEPER root system, so they can get more water, and Black Walnuts have more resistance to disease and are more resistant to insects that burrow into the roots. BUT THEY NEVER BECOME BLACK WALNUT TREES.
Verses that PERTAIN to ISRAEL, that PROVE God is not finished with Israel.
Jeremiah 23:7-8 (HCSB)
7 “The days are coming”—the LORD’s declaration—“when it will no longer be said, ‘As the LORD lives who brought the Israelites from the land of Egypt,’
8 but, ‘As the LORD lives, who brought and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the land of the north and from all the other countries where I had banished them.’ They will dwell once more in their own land.”
2 Chronicles 30:8 (NIV)
8 Do not be stiff-necked, as your fathers were; submit to the LORD. Come to the sanctuary, which he has consecrated forever. Serve the LORD your God, so that his fierce anger will turn away from you.
Psalm 103:7-9 (HCSB)
7 He revealed His ways to Moses, His deeds to the people of Israel.
8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger and rich in faithful love.
9 He will not always accuse ⌊us⌋ or be angry forever.
Isaiah 62:5 (ESV)
5 For as a young man marries a young woman, so shall your sons marry you, and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you.
YES, that means the sum total of both the O.T. Saints and the N.T. Saints are going to be BRIDE of Christ.
For those who think GOD is finished with Israel, these Verses should convince you, THAT JUST AIN'T SO.
Isaiah 62:11-12 (ESV)
11 Behold, the LORD has proclaimed to the end of the earth: Say to the daughter of Zion, “Behold, your salvation comes; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.”
12 And they shall be called The Holy People, The Redeemed of the LORD; and you shall be called Sought Out, A City Not Forsaken.
Isaiah 62:11-12 (ESV)
11 Behold, the LORD has proclaimed to the end of the earth: Say to the daughter of Zion, “Behold, your salvation comes; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.”
12 And they shall be called The Holy People, The Redeemed of the LORD; and you shall be called Sought Out, A City Not Forsaken.
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The gift of ‘languages’ was the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy (Isaiah 28:11-13)
11Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,
12to whom he said,
“This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
and, “This is the place of repose”—
but they would not listen.
13So then, the word of the Lord to them will become:
Do this, do that,
a rule for this, a rule for that;
a little here, a little there—
so that as they go they will fall backward;
they will be injured and snared and captured.
1. It was intended as a final sign to Israel of the impending destruction of Jerusalem which occurred in AD70.
Supernatural ‘spiritual gifts’ were delivered exclusively through the agency of the 12 Apostles
Acts 8v18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
Other supernatural spiritual gifts were all intended to validate the Apostles’ eyewitness testimony to Jesus’ resurrection. (Mark 16:20; Acts 1:8; Acts 4:33; Heb. 2:3-4)
The circumstantial evidence is consistent with this:
1. Paul had to travel all the way to Rome to impart spiritual gifts to the Romans (Rom. 1:11).
2. Timothy’s spiritual gift was delivered through Paul’s hands: (2 Tim. 1:6).
3. Paul imparted spiritual gifts to the Ephesians (Acts 19:6).
4. There is no case in the NT where people received spiritual gifts apart from the immediate presence of one of the 12 ‘chosen eyewitnesses.’
Paul’s statement that supernatural spiritual gifts would cease to be given (1 Cor. 13:8-13).
1. Love never ‘expires’ (ἐκπίπτει {ek-pip’-to} – lit. to “fall off,” met. “fail or expire”)
2. Prophecies will be ‘cancelled’ (καταργηθήσεται {kat-ar-geh’-o} future, passive voice – lit. “will be cancelled”).
3. Tongues (languages) will ‘cease of itself’ (παύσονται {pow’-o} future, middle voice – “cease of itself.”
4. Knowledge (by direct revelation) will ‘(καταργηθήσεται {kat-ar-geh’-o} future, passive voice – lit. “will be cancelled”).
Other gifts (like healing) may have continued until the deaths of the recipients, as late as approx. AD 180
11Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,
12to whom he said,
“This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
and, “This is the place of repose”—
but they would not listen.
13So then, the word of the Lord to them will become:
Do this, do that,
a rule for this, a rule for that;
a little here, a little there—
so that as they go they will fall backward;
they will be injured and snared and captured.
1. It was intended as a final sign to Israel of the impending destruction of Jerusalem which occurred in AD70.
Supernatural ‘spiritual gifts’ were delivered exclusively through the agency of the 12 Apostles
Acts 8v18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
Other supernatural spiritual gifts were all intended to validate the Apostles’ eyewitness testimony to Jesus’ resurrection. (Mark 16:20; Acts 1:8; Acts 4:33; Heb. 2:3-4)
The circumstantial evidence is consistent with this:
1. Paul had to travel all the way to Rome to impart spiritual gifts to the Romans (Rom. 1:11).
2. Timothy’s spiritual gift was delivered through Paul’s hands: (2 Tim. 1:6).
3. Paul imparted spiritual gifts to the Ephesians (Acts 19:6).
4. There is no case in the NT where people received spiritual gifts apart from the immediate presence of one of the 12 ‘chosen eyewitnesses.’
Paul’s statement that supernatural spiritual gifts would cease to be given (1 Cor. 13:8-13).
1. Love never ‘expires’ (ἐκπίπτει {ek-pip’-to} – lit. to “fall off,” met. “fail or expire”)
2. Prophecies will be ‘cancelled’ (καταργηθήσεται {kat-ar-geh’-o} future, passive voice – lit. “will be cancelled”).
3. Tongues (languages) will ‘cease of itself’ (παύσονται {pow’-o} future, middle voice – “cease of itself.”
4. Knowledge (by direct revelation) will ‘(καταργηθήσεται {kat-ar-geh’-o} future, passive voice – lit. “will be cancelled”).
Other gifts (like healing) may have continued until the deaths of the recipients, as late as approx. AD 180