A "Personal Relationship" with God is not biblical

[eternally-gratefull]

You don't know those people and neither do I.

No but the word tells us about them. I think God knows about them..

You can tell a person by what they believe and what they do.

God said our relationship is restored by grace through faith, not of works. A person trying to work to earn it is doing what the bible says we will never be able to do.

 

[LPT]

Who was Lazarus to Jesus?

John 11:11
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Whom he loved not as a disciple not as a follower but his friend.

 

[memyselfi]

This thread has nothing to do with any of my previous posts. This is just something that's been on my mind lately.

The idea of a "personal relationship" with God may be popular. But just because something is popular doesn't mean it's biblical. For one thing, the idea itself never appears in the bible. In fact, whether you like it or not, the bible says Christianity is a religion, a good religion. James 1:26

I think this idea has done serious damage to the modern church. It results in us turning God into a therapist and trying to mold him into our own image. A "relationship" with God is done on his terms. It doesn't matter whether or not you like that. I may not like the way God does certain things, but I'm not the creator of the universe.

But more than just the words, the idea behind them is wrong. Consider this: if a “personal relationship with Jesus” is the solution, what is the problem? Maybe the problem is that you are lonely, or your life is empty, you feel meaningless, unimportant, and insignificant, hopeless with no direction. The personal relationship with Jesus promises to fix these problems, to fill the hole in your life that only Jesus can fill, to give your life meaning and direction. These are all the promises being offered. And now, with this personal relationship with Jesus, there is two-way communication where God will talk directly to you. You will be filled and fulfilled. Your life will have meaning and direction, you will be transformed. And you will directly experience the presence and the power of God, all of this if we make a decision for Christ, if we surrender our life to Him, if we make Him the Lord of our life.

I think that this summarizes Christianity for most Americans. And some of this sounds good. You might have that angst grinding up against your own soul, I suspect we all do in one way or another. None of us know what tomorrow may bring. None of us see completely how our lives fit in to the big picture of the universe. All of us have times of loneliness. But if this is our biggest problem, then Jesus wouldn’t need to die; He could just come and hang out.

But Jesus is the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep, and this means that the problem is much bigger than we might think. Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, the Lamb who has been slain. Jesus is the One who hands Himself over to the shame of the cross, because our biggest problem is not our isolation. It is our sin running face-first into the holiness of God. God’s wrath is our real problem, because of our sin, and Jesus and His death and resurrection is our only possible hope.

To add to that, God is only my Lord and Savior, not my friend or anything like that.

The fact is, Jesus doesn’t make for a very good companion. He doesn’t talk back to you. He doesn’t laugh at your jokes. He doesn’t playfully hit you when you pretend to do something mean. He doesn’t show you something you’ve missed in the latest movie you saw, or make an insightful comment about the news. He doesn’t dance with you or sing for you or applaud when you play him a song on the violin. He doesn’t hug you or kiss you or hold your hand.

I think we can get carried away by the idea of God being our all. Yes, He is, but as God: not as friend, lover, or companion.

Even Adam, unfallen and enjoying complete communion with God, was lonely in the garden.

The modern hymn calls Jesus a "friend" and some may appeal to a verse in John where Jesus calls his disciples "friends". But the understanding of the word is decontextualized. People of the time of the Bible did not "get to know" each other as modern persons in the West do. A "friend" meant a person who looked out for your practical interests -- not someone you had beer and watched football with.

I would say that what is required of us is a patronal relationship with Jesus. The New Testament explains our relationship with God in terms of a client-patron relationship, one in which God, patron, is remote; and Jesus, as a broker, mediates between ourselves and God. Then we do have the indwelling Holy Spirit as a broker as well; but though the Spirit supplies us with mediation and perhaps power, there is nothing to show that the Spirit is some sort of intimate conversation partner.

And finally, since people of the ancient world seldom "got to know each other" personally (as is taken for granted in modern, Western society) there is no way that New Testament writers could have had an idea like a "personal relationship with Jesus" in mind in the first place -- not as we perceive it. The word "personal" is so broad in meaning that it could include a "patronal" relationship; but that is obviously not what most people have in mind when they use the word. They usually mean something like, God is approachable in the same way one of your sports buddies is. It is not the words that are so much the issue as the particulars of expression.

The purpose of coming to Christ is not happiness, joy, all the feel good emotions we love. It is for the forgiveness and atonement for sin.

Man does this hit it and miss it....

I agree 100% "The purpose of coming to Christ is not happiness, joy, all the feel good emotions we love. It is for the forgiveness and atonement for sin.".... But Messiah is Joy and G-d (Messiah) is love.... so when we get Him we get those too. Every human should have a fear of G-d, He can and does either save the body nd soul or destroys them both. Even the NT G-d, Messiah, Jesus.... what ever you prefer calling Him will do this at the Great White Throne Judgement. And weather people like it or not He punishes us for our sins in the now, even the saved, look at Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5).

To be honest with you I do not believe anyone can be saved without the fear of G-d and therefore humbling themselves before G-d and admitting they are a sinner in need of a Savior.

However, the baby can not be thrown out with the bathwater...

He is also, in addition to:
El Roi: The G-d who sees me
Elohim: Creator(my creator)
Yahweh Yireh: G-d Provider
Yahweh Ropheka: G-d who heals
Yahweh Nissi: My banner
Yahweh Shalom: My Peace
Yahweh Tsuri: My Rock
Yahweh Tesbaoth: Lord of Host
El Olam: Eternal G-d
My G-d who sees me knows me on a very personal level... He "sees" me... He knows me inside and out He created me. He provides for me on every level, physically, mentally and emotionally. He has head me on every level too. When I go into battle, weather, spiritual or with a person/group His banner is over me. He is my peace because He is Peace. He is my Rock I run into and I am saved!!!! (you can bank on that)!!! He sends His angles to take charge over me and all that is mine. He is Alpha and Omega, my Alpha and Omega! And because He is ALL OF THIS and I only love and fear Him He is all of this to me and sooooo much more because I have a personal relationship with Him.

 

[UnderGrace]

That's what happens when you're on the spectrum.

Yes I agree, if someone does not understand autism they will not understand how you perceive the world, however, having said this, you also need to be aware that projecting your lens of how you experience life and the world .....onto scripture is not wise either.

 

[garee]

Man does this hit it and miss it....

I agree 100% "The purpose of coming to Christ is not happiness, joy, all the feel good emotions we love. It is for the forgiveness and atonement for sin.".... But Messiah is Joy and G-d (Messiah) is love.... so when we get Him we get those too. Every human should have a fear of G-d, He can and does either save the body nd soul or destroys them both. Even the NT G-d, Messiah, Jesus.... what ever you prefer calling Him will do this at the Great White Throne Judgement. And weather people like it or not He punishes us for our sins in the now, even the saved, look at Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5).

To be honest with you I do not believe anyone can be saved without the fear of G-d and therefore humbling themselves before G-d and admitting they are a sinner in need of a Savior.

However, the baby can not be thrown out with the bathwater...

He is also, in addition to:
El Roi: The G-d who sees me
Elohim: Creator(my creator)
Yahweh Yireh: G-d Provider
Yahweh Ropheka: G-d who heals
Yahweh Nissi: My banner
Yahweh Shalom: My Peace
Yahweh Tsuri: My Rock
Yahweh Tesbaoth: Lord of Host
El Olam: Eternal G-d
My G-d who sees me knows me on a very personal level... He "sees" me... He knows me inside and out He created me. He provides for me on every level, physically, mentally and emotionally. He has head me on every level too. When I go into battle, weather, spiritual or with a person/group His banner is over me. He is my peace because He is Peace. He is my Rock I run into and I am saved!!!! (you can bank on that)!!! He sends His angles to take charge over me and all that is mine. He is Alpha and Omega, my Alpha and Omega! And because He is ALL OF THIS and I only love and fear Him He is all of this to me and sooooo much more because I have a personal relationship with Him.

If God took into account one sin against Him how could they stand before his throne of Grace and receive mercy?We fear him because with him there is forgiveness. He is our city of refuge.

 

[memyselfi]

If God took into account one sin against Him how could they stand before his throne of Grace and receive mercy?We fear him because with him there is forgiveness. He is our city of refuge.

Yes. Thank you soooo much for expanding.... for me....

The City of Refuge is for the guilty of sin. He, G-d/Y-shua is our City of Refuge!!!!

 

[HistoryPrincess]

Yes I agree, if someone does not understand autism they will not understand how you perceive the world, however, having said this, you also need to be aware that projecting your lens of how you experience life and the world .....onto scripture is not wise either.

Yeah, well, everyone does that to some extent. But I suppose there is a benefit to never having experienced love in any other way, because I'm not going to let my emotions cloud my judgment. People also use this "relationship" theology to coerce people into all kinds of abuse. If I ever found out that someone I knew, or even someone I loved, was doing that, and that there was evidence for it, I'm going to do the responsible thing and call the police.

The church is not above reproach and God couldn't care less about "reputations." He cares about people. And when you choose your emotions over evidence, you are giving into foolishness and, in some cases, wickedness. Like I said, if I knew you, loved you, even if you were a family man, when you abuse in God's name, it may be hard, but I will call the cops on you.

It's also this "relationship" theology that makes us deny ultimately that everyone has a sin nature. It's sad that church people can be some of the most naive people, and that churches have become havens for abusers. The bible says that there are people in this world who do not have a conscience and who give themselves over to Satan. There are people who lie and steal and kill and destroy without remorse.

In fact, Paul writes that we are to turn unrepentant sinners over to Satan. God takes sin very seriously, and he is furious when people abuse in his name. Woe to those who have done that and then will have to answer for it on Judgment Day.

 

[blueluna5]

15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you agape (unconditional) love me more than these?”

“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I Philia (brotherly) love you.”

16Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you agape (unconditional) love me?”

He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I Philia (brotherly) love you.”

17The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you agape (unconditional) love me?”

If Jesus wants unconditional love he wants at least a personal relationship.
7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

You are looking from the outside. God is everywhere. In your dreams you talk to him, he talks to you. He speaks to your mind. Do you think you are always in control. It is of God or of Satan.

 

[HistoryPrincess]

Seriously, read this article.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/biblestudies/bible-answers/theology/trulyevil.html

 

[pottersclay]

Why I don't know how personal you can get when we are called children, sons and daughters, beloved, darling, saints, priests, oh did I mention bride....hhmmm why the first Adam siad his bride was bone of his bone....flesh of his flesh....I think the second Adam agreed.

 

[Maynard]

I guess you are not known by Him or know Him.

Everywhere I go, I take Jesus with me, because He is in me, and I in Him.

And through Him I can pray to my Father in Heaven and He hears because of my "relationship" to His Son. The curtain is torn between Him and me because of Jesus's completed work.

So I feel sorry for you for not having an intimate relationship with Christ.

There is a very powerful error on earth today that tells us that those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall. enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth. the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Mat 7:21

 

[PennEd]

There is a very powerful error on earth today that tells us that those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall. enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth. the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Mat 7:21

Let's see what Jesus says is the work we should DOETH and who DOETH the Will of the Father that results in Salvation:

John 6:
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “THIS IS THE WORK of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 6:
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will[f]by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 THIS IS THE WILL of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 AND THIS IS THE WILL of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”


BTW. It's those that have been born again as children of God, as a NEW creation, with a NEW heart, through receiving Jesus, after hearing, and believing the Gospel, that will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[BenFTW]

I'm used to getting pushback, and I'm used to being misunderstood. That's what happens when you're on the spectrum.

I've explained what it's like before, but I'm going to say it here.

As someone on the spectrum, relationships, or at least the emotional component of them, are not an easy thing for me to grasp. My default way of thinking is logic, and while I do have emotions, I don't have the ability to instantly emotionally connect to people. I haven't had one close friend in years, and I've never been one a single date in my life. But I do have my family.

So really, the only way I've experienced love is through fulfilling obligations to my loved ones whether I'm happy doing it or not, not in that sappy, shallow, romantic way. But try living that way in the Bible Belt, where having a date is a rite of passage. Try hearing "relationship" theology that you just can't relate to every Sunday.

The only kind of relationship I really understand is that between an employer and a worker. No one likes that person who takes everything and then gives nothing in return. This however, is a mutual give-take. I do this for you, you do this for me. I work, you pay. Straight forward, black and white, clear rules, no surprises. And let's be honest, are relationships really easier than religion?

God is not a human being, so I just can't think of him as having human attributes no matter what the Bible says. And yes, I know, Jesus was a human being. But 1) He was not human like we are, and 2) That doesn't change the fact that he's not physically here right now. God alone cannot meet all my needs. We need people, food, water, etc.

And no matter how much the Bible says God loves me and says I should love him, the fact is I honestly don't think I ever really can because I will always remember that he's God and I'm not. He's my Lord and Savior, not my best buddy or my boyfriend. Believe me, I've tried relating to him in more intimate terms, and nothing worked. It felt forced and unnatural, like having an imaginary friend.

And a lot of people may not like what I'm about to say, but I don't care. For someone like me, who can spot a fake a thousand miles away, it's not "who I am" but what I DO that defines me. Anyone can say they're something or make certain claims about themselves. The issue is what do you have to back it up?

Logic, huh? Heh, that is an interesting approach to God. Not that a relationship with God is illogical, but you're trying to define your relationship with God logically. Well, logically you must understand God's omnipresence, so when you say that God isn't with you, it is false. He says that He will never leave us nor forsake us. So, right now, this moment, God is with you. You can't hide from God, and don't let that unsettle you. Why? He does love you, He isn't out to get you, and yes, He does want a relationship with you. When I say relationship I mean fellowship, actually fellowship. Not a one way conversation.

God's word describes Him as your heavenly Father. So in that respect you can see that He is your provider and protector. He wishes to lead you, teach you, nurture you, and bless you. Comfort you. God is not far. As for your needs, take Him at His word. Believe. You say that God can't meet your needs, yet who is it that created the people, food, and water you need? Who opens doors and closes them (of opportunity and danger/risk)? God looks out for us.

Your idea of a relationship is do, work, be productive, and so on, but understand that God loved you before you were even born. He knew you, in His omniscience, before the day you were born. He knows you, through and through. Jesus died for you, and loves you. Emphasis on you. Do not think that your actions are the basis for His love, but rather His love is the basis for your actions. We love God because He loves us (give and you shall receive). Any servitude we do, is out of gratitude and what an honor it is to be a part of His plan. Think, that He would choose you to fulfill His purposes.

God loves you, let that sink in. Your love will simply follow as result of the revelation you have of His love.

 

[PAC-fit]

wonder what brought this op on ?!?

Not sure if any here would want to know except possibly, the OPr lacked that deeper excavation many of us are fed from. But I have to say, standing back, , when we set all our cares “upon Him”, what then prevents our capability to say within, this struggle or that weakness isn’t being transformed into the image of Christ within?

One could even contemplate expanding upon that with the power to convert others is ineffective in my life. I’m not saying that is what the OPr is going through, but isn’t every last weakness also brought into this relationship with Him?, ,

For we do not have a high priest who cannot
sympathize with our weaknesses, but One
who has been tempted in all things
as we are, yet without sin.

(Hebrews 4:15)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is a very powerful error on earth today that tells us that those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall. enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth. the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Mat 7:21

and who are those who obey his commands?

Those who recieve him in faith and are born again.

The error is thinking your goodness or self righteousness will buy you one second in heaven.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Not sure if any here would want to know except possibly, the OPr lacked that deeper excavation many of us are fed from. But I have to say, standing back, , when we set all our cares “upon Him”, what then prevents our capability to say within, this struggle or that weakness isn’t being transformed into the image of Christ within?

One could even contemplate expanding upon that with the power to convert others is ineffective in my life. I’m not saying that is what the OPr is going through, but isn’t every last weakness also brought into this relationship with Him?, ,

For we do not have a high priest who cannot
sympathize with our weaknesses, but One
who has been tempted in all things
as we are, yet without sin.

(Hebrews 4:15)

I posted a gang of scripture verses back a page or two which were handily ignored by the op

God forbid we should actually see what scripture states...this is the age of opinions and everybody has them

in another thread, same thing.

yet this is a Christian forum

as far as what brought on the op, it is personal because the Bible does not back it up at all

 

[JohnRH]

This thread has nothing to do with any of my previous posts. This is just something that's been on my mind lately.

The idea of a "personal relationship" with God may be popular. But just because something is popular doesn't mean it's biblical. For one thing, the idea itself never appears in the bible. In fact, whether you like it or not, the bible says Christianity is a religion, a good religion. James 1:26

I think this idea has done serious damage to the modern church. It results in us turning God into a therapist and trying to mold him into our own image. A "relationship" with God is done on his terms. It doesn't matter whether or not you like that. I may not like the way God does certain things, but I'm not the creator of the universe.

But more than just the words, the idea behind them is wrong. Consider this: if a “personal relationship with Jesus” is the solution, what is the problem? Maybe the problem is that you are lonely, or your life is empty, you feel meaningless, unimportant, and insignificant, hopeless with no direction. The personal relationship with Jesus promises to fix these problems, to fill the hole in your life that only Jesus can fill, to give your life meaning and direction. These are all the promises being offered. And now, with this personal relationship with Jesus, there is two-way communication where God will talk directly to you. You will be filled and fulfilled. Your life will have meaning and direction, you will be transformed. And you will directly experience the presence and the power of God, all of this if we make a decision for Christ, if we surrender our life to Him, if we make Him the Lord of our life.

I think that this summarizes Christianity for most Americans. And some of this sounds good. You might have that angst grinding up against your own soul, I suspect we all do in one way or another. None of us know what tomorrow may bring. None of us see completely how our lives fit in to the big picture of the universe. All of us have times of loneliness. But if this is our biggest problem, then Jesus wouldn’t need to die; He could just come and hang out.

But Jesus is the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep, and this means that the problem is much bigger than we might think. Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, the Lamb who has been slain. Jesus is the One who hands Himself over to the shame of the cross, because our biggest problem is not our isolation. It is our sin running face-first into the holiness of God. God’s wrath is our real problem, because of our sin, and Jesus and His death and resurrection is our only possible hope.

To add to that, God is only my Lord and Savior, not my friend or anything like that.

The fact is, Jesus doesn’t make for a very good companion. He doesn’t talk back to you. He doesn’t laugh at your jokes. He doesn’t playfully hit you when you pretend to do something mean. He doesn’t show you something you’ve missed in the latest movie you saw, or make an insightful comment about the news. He doesn’t dance with you or sing for you or applaud when you play him a song on the violin. He doesn’t hug you or kiss you or hold your hand.

I think we can get carried away by the idea of God being our all. Yes, He is, but as God: not as friend, lover, or companion.

Even Adam, unfallen and enjoying complete communion with God, was lonely in the garden.

The modern hymn calls Jesus a "friend" and some may appeal to a verse in John where Jesus calls his disciples "friends". But the understanding of the word is decontextualized. People of the time of the Bible did not "get to know" each other as modern persons in the West do. A "friend" meant a person who looked out for your practical interests -- not someone you had beer and watched football with.

I would say that what is required of us is a patronal relationship with Jesus. The New Testament explains our relationship with God in terms of a client-patron relationship, one in which God, patron, is remote; and Jesus, as a broker, mediates between ourselves and God. Then we do have the indwelling Holy Spirit as a broker as well; but though the Spirit supplies us with mediation and perhaps power, there is nothing to show that the Spirit is some sort of intimate conversation partner.

And finally, since people of the ancient world seldom "got to know each other" personally (as is taken for granted in modern, Western society) there is no way that New Testament writers could have had an idea like a "personal relationship with Jesus" in mind in the first place -- not as we perceive it. The word "personal" is so broad in meaning that it could include a "patronal" relationship; but that is obviously not what most people have in mind when they use the word. They usually mean something like, God is approachable in the same way one of your sports buddies is. It is not the words that are so much the issue as the particulars of expression.

The purpose of coming to Christ is not happiness, joy, all the feel good emotions we love. It is for the forgiveness and atonement for sin.

I agree with much of what you say, but I don't think the idea of "personal" is the problem. The problem is when a person tries to have as much say or more say in a relationship with the Person. John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. I have only one Friend that I allow to dictate to me the terms of our personal relationship. That's because He's God. My earthly friends aren't.

The Father is the 1st Person of the Trinity, the Son is the 2nd Person, and the Holy Spirit is the 3rd Person. I'm a person. Our relationship is "personal", not impersonal.

This Person loved my very person (and every other person) when I was His enemy, so that He died for my sins. Satan hates my very person (and every other person). Without a personal relationship with Jesus (which is based 100% on His terms) a person will go to hell when they die.

 

[oldethennew]

Jesus Christ personally speaking/declaring His Love for us in these scriptures and many, many, more
is more than enough to bring me to my knees in wonder, and has created in me a profound desire to return
the love that He has placed inside of me back to Him and His, the ways and means to do this are beyond belief,
literally endless...


MATT. 11:28-29-30.
Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls.
For My yoke is easy, and my burden is Light.

JOB 28.28.
And unto man He said, Behold, the fear of The Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

 

[Maynard]

"Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."
- Jesus

From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

(John, Chapter 6)

 

[Magenta]

Jesus Christ personally speaking/declaring His Love for us in these scriptures and many, many, more
is more than enough to bring me to my knees in wonder, and has created in me a profound desire to return
the love that He has placed inside of me back to Him and His, the ways and means to do this are beyond belief,
literally endless...


MATT. 11:28-29-30.
Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls.
For My yoke is easy, and my burden is Light.

JOB 28.28.
And unto man He said, Behold, the fear of The Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.