A place for rapture questions

[Hevosmies]

BTW,there is no resurrection in rev 20.

Im not here to change your mind, im here to learn from both sides and "lock in" my choice.

But this one did catch my interest, because I believe this is false. I have read it slowly and fast and there IS a resurrection in Rev 20, in fact TWO.

How could this be previous resurrections? WHEN?
I know the book isnt chronological, but the resurections is clear there?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Read where the ac kills all who refuse the mark. Your scenario makes no provision for that. There are no christians alive mid trib. NONE.
Unless you find some cave dwellers or amazonian natives somewhere.
Just going by the word of God.

You invoke infallibility. You need to stop doing that. You are easily in error.
Doing damage to God's reputation.

Greetings Absolutely,

Regarding the millennial period, the word of God states the following:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. - Isa.2:4

"To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’ —just as I have received authority from my Father." - Rev.2:26-27

The church, 144,000 and the tribulation saints will all rule over the nations with Christ during His thousand reign. Since all of the wicked will be killed an their spirits resigned to Hades and if all of the great tribulation saints (Gentiles) are killed during the middle of the tribulation, then there would be no one to rule over. There would be no nations to beat their weapons of war into plowshares and pruning hooks.

Regarding those on the earth during that seven and specifically the last 3 1/2 years referred to as the great tribulation and regarding those who will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark, scripture states the following:

"And there was given to him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them."

"And should cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast would be killed"

The scriptures infer that anyone who does not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark should be killed, but considering the scriptures that I posted above, obviously not all of the great tribulation saints are killed, else there would be no Gentile believers in Christ to enter into the millennial period, which we know from scripture is false. Here is another reference to the millennial period regarding Gentiles during that time:

"Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, they will receive no rain. - Zech.14:16

How could the above take place if all of those saints of the great tribulation are all killed. It would mean that only Israel would enter into the millennial kingdom and repopulate it. But according to you, there would be no Gentiles.

Just something to consider.

 

[Ahwatukee]

BTW,there is no resurrection in rev 20.

There will most definitely be a resurrection of the great tribulation saints when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

Jesus returns with billions of resurrected saints at the end of the GT. Add to that the heathen and rebellious jews already on earth. Thats is the population of the millineum.

First of all, your attitude in referring to God's precious possession out of all the peoples of the earth as being "rebellious Jews" is not one of the Spirit. God cares for the Woman/Israel during the last 3 1/2 years. Israel along with the surviving great tribulation saints, will those who will enter into the millennial period and repopulate the earth. The resurrected saints are not apart of that population, but will be in their immortal and glorified bodies and will be ruling over the nations with Christ.

Therefore, the population of the earth will consist of both Israel and Gentiles

 

[garee]

Im not here to change your mind, im here to learn from both sides and "lock in" my choice.

But this one did catch my interest, because I believe this is false. I have read it slowly and fast and there IS a resurrection in Rev 20, in fact TWO.

How could this be previous resurrections? WHEN?
I know the book isnt chronological, but the resurections is clear there?

I would offer the first resurrection is in respect to; "I will open the graves"(Ezekiel 37:12) which was fulfilled in
And the graves were opened Matthew 27:52 which will continue, seeing to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Until ….."Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice" ( the last day.) the 2nd and final resurrection.

The metaphor in Revelation 20 "thousand years" represents the whole new testament era ending with the execution of judgment .The believers receive their new incorruptible bodies and those who know not Christ will be cast in the lake of fire the second death

John 5 speaks of the final judgment for the believer as well as those who have no faith. Both simultaneously executed in the twinkling of the eye .

John 5:27-29 King James Version (KJV)And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[garee]

There will most definitely be a resurrection of the great tribulation saints when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.



First of all, your attitude in referring to God's precious possession out of all the peoples of the earth as being "rebellious Jews" is not one of the Spirit. God cares for the Woman/Israel during the last 3 1/2 years. Israel along with the surviving great tribulation saints, will those who will enter into the millennial period and repopulate the earth. The resurrected saints are not apart of that population, but will be in their immortal and glorified bodies and will be ruling over the nations with Christ.

Therefore, the population of the earth will consist of both Israel and Gentiles

What will their immortal and glorified bodies look like? Will the Lord have a literal body as that seen?

 

[Hevosmies]

What will their immortal and glorified bodies look like? Will the Lord have a literal body as that seen?

Yes the Lord will have a literal glorified resurrection body. Just like the saints will.

In fact to deny this is to drift away to gnosticism!

 

[Nehemiah6]

I know the book isnt chronological, but the resurrections is clear there?

If you are referring to the book of Revelation, it is for the most part chronological.

1. The churches are in chronological order -- 1 through 7

2. The seals are in chronological order -- 1 through 7

3. The trumpet judgments are in chronological order -- 1 through 7

4. The vial/bowl judgments are in chronological order -- 1 through 7

5. The entire book is in chronological order -- 1st century AD to the eternal state (New Heavens and New Earth)

6. There are a few *parenthetical passages* interspersed, but that does not change the basic structure. And the book is definitely not repeating cycles (as some imagine).

As to the resurrections, we need to understand that there are essential TWO resurrections -- one for the just (saved) the other for the unjust (lost). However, the first resurrection (though mentioned in Rev 20) is actually in three phases ("but every man in his own order") corresponding to Hebrew harvests:

1. Christ the first fruits (which also confirms that Christ rose on the first day of the week)

2. The Church -- the main harvest (Pentecost was on the first day of the week, and it is more than likely that the Resurrection/Rapture will also be on the first day of the week)

3. The Tribulation Saints -- the gleanings (Rev 20)

THE FIRST RESURRECTION -- 1 CORINTHIANS 15

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept...

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; [1 CHRIST] afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [2 THE CHURCH]

24 Then cometh the end, [3 THE TRIBULATION SAINTS] when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I got questions for post-tribbers: If the rapture occurs at the second coming:

1. Who populates the millennium? In the parable of wheat and tares, the tares are gathered first, in a post-trib model this would mean there is no one left to populate the millennium. All the saved are in glorified bodies, and all the wicked are destroyed. (2 thess 1:5-8 and matthew 13:30)

Good day Hevosmies,

I also got a couple of questions for pre-tribbers:

1. Why does Jesus say to His disciples "when YOU see" the abomination of desolation, instead of "They", insinuating they would see it, the believers in Christ, and it says they are killed for their faith in Jesus.

In answer to your question, we have to keep in mind that since Israel did not and has not acknowledged Christ as their Messiah, neither would they consider the NT as being the word of God. But, we as believers would know about the abomination spoken of in Dan.9:27 and Matt.24:15 and just like with the rest of the word of God, we would be able to warn Israel regarding this event and when it would take place.

In the same way, even though the church will not be here to experience any of God's wrath revealed in Revelation, God has revealed all of these events of wrath to the church, that we may know His word and warn people of the coming wrath and how escape it, yet we ourselves will not be here.

2. When does Matthew 25 sheep and goats judgment take place, in light of the parable of the wheat and tares Matt 13:30?

The judgment of the sheep and goats takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, as the sign of His coming and the end of the age were two of the questions that the disciples had asked Jesus and which He is answering. It wouldn't make any sense for the Lord to be consistently speaking about the end of the age and then have the judgment of the sheep and goats take place at the great white throne judgment.

3. Why is there no kind of advice, or warnings (Or are there?) given to people that are "Left behind", how are they supposed to know what to do, and what bible verses to read, and which apply to them?

They have been and are being warned now by those who study the word of God. We have been telling people that those who continue to reject Christ remain in a condemned state and the wrath of God remains on them. And if they die in that state, their record will be sealed and they will have no further opportunity for salvation. We have also continued to tell them about the coming wrath of God. However, because of lack of faith in God and His word, they have been fence sitters, putting off their decision for Christ and continuing to live in the sinful nature. So, they are, have been and continue to be warned.

When that day comes and they suddenly find that the church is gone, then this will be a very sobering moment for them, realizing that what we had been telling them has taken place. I'm sure that during that time they will remember what was told to them regarding the last seven years being God's wrath. They will turn to the Bible like men in the desert with no water in order to find out the answers. In addition, though not specifically stated, those 144,000 who come out of Israel will most likely be spreading the word, as well as the two witnesses. That said, we should be studying and taking every opportunity in conversation to testify of the Lord and share the word of God.

4. If the rapture is imminent, could it have happened before Peter died, since Jesus said to him he would? Meaning there was no way the rapture could of happened before Peter died, because Jesus spoke the truth.

Im playing two sides of the field here, I hope I get answers from both sides!

Obviously, the question as to whether the gathering of the church could happen before Peter died is redundant, as it is still yet to take place.

Regarding this, I am reminded of the Preterist teaching that the all end-time events have already taken place around 70 AD relating to the destruction of the temple, the gathering of the church, as well as the Lord's return, which of course are all hog-wash!

When Jesus said that He was going to the Father's house to prepare rooms for us and that He was going to come back and get us to take us to those places that He prepared, the promise was to the entire church, not just to those believers up to 70 AD. In that case, the rest of the church over the last 1900 years would not been included in the Lord's promise of His coming to gather us. However, the truth of the matter is that, when the Lord appears, all of the dead in Christ from on-set of the church will be raised in their immortal and glorified bodies in a flash! Immediately following that, the living in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Therefore, the scripture reveals that the entire church from its inception until the resurrection takes place, both the dead in Christ and the living in Christ, which will make up the entire church, will all be present in the air and will all be taken back to the Father's house at the same time.

 

[Hevosmies]

I would offer the first resurrection is in respect to; "I will open the graves"(Ezekiel 37:12) which was fulfilled in
And the graves were opened Matthew 27:52 which will continue, seeing to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Until ….."Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice" ( the last day.) the 2nd and final resurrection.

But garee did you consider the fact that Rev20 says the first resurrection includes those who didnt worship the beast nor take his mark? And those in Matthew 27:52 had not even been alive at the time of the beast, nor faced his mark?

 

[Hevosmies]

If you are referring to the book of Revelation, it is for the most part chronological.

How many times will the same thing happen?

Rev 6:14
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 16:20
And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

One is from seals, one is from the vials. Trumpets and vials are also similar, last trumpet and last vial are almost identical, if not identical. It doesnt look like its: seals then trumpets then vials, its clearly visible when you look at them side by side.
Its either 1seal1trumpet1vial OR seals, then 1trumpet1vial etc. Who knows.

 

[Ahwatukee]

How many times will the same thing happen?

Rev 6:14
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 16:20
And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Hello again,

You are absolutely correct Hevosmies. In Rev.6:14 which is one of the results of the 6th seal due to the great earthquake, where the mountains and islands are stirred up, put in motion, excited (kineo). However, they do not disappear at that time. Where in Rev.16:20 at the 7th bowl, the quake will be world-wide and the strongest to ever take place on the earth since man has been here, causing the cities of the nations to collapse and the islands and the mountains to disappear. My guess is that their disappearance will be the result of the liquefication factor.

The misinterpretation of these two quakes as being the same has led expositors to interpret the seals, trumpets and bowls as taking place parallel to each other, citing them as being the same event. If you will notice however, there are several quakes mentioned as taking place throughout the time of God's wrath in Revelation, but that doesn't mean that hey are all the same quakes. The same goes for the events involving the sun, moon and stars which seem similar, but are just different events.

Another good example of this is found regarding the sign of the Lord's appearing to end the age in Matt.24:29 where the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light; the stars falling from the sky, and the powers of the heavens being shaken. On the surface, this event looks like it is synonymous with the 6th seal, where there is a great earthquake, the sun is darkened, the moon is turned blood red and the stars fall to the earth. However, a closer look reveals that, though they appear to be the same event, they are not and here's why:

In Matt.24:29 immediately after the tribulation, the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall to the earth as a sign of Jesus' return to the earth to end the age, as described in verses 30 and 31. Therefore, Matt.24:29 could not be the same event as the 6th seal, because Jesus returns immediately after the sun and moon are darkened, whereas after the 6th seal will be the 7th seal, which will be followed by the seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments. Matt.24:29 neither makes no mention of the rest of them and leaves no room for the rest of God's judgments.

In addition, there a couple of deviations from both Matt.24:29 and the 6th seal. The first one is that at the 6th seal a great earthquake is mentioned as taking place, where in Matt.24:29 no earthquake is mentioned. And two, in Matt.24:29 both the sun and the moon are darkened, where at the 6th seal the moon is turned blood red. I believe that these are important details which need to be considered.

Therefore, regarding the 6th seal, (which takes place in the early part of the seven years) I believe that great earthquake will take place, the sun will be darkened and the moon turned blood red, with the sky rolling back like a scroll so that the inhabitants of the earth will see God sitting on His throne which will terrify them so much so that they want to die by the calling to the mountains and the rocks to fall on them so they can get out of God's line of sight. After that event takes place, the 7th seal will be opened followed by the seven trumpets and the seven bowl judgments, taking place in chronological order. Towards the end in close proximity to the 7th bowl being poured out, Matt.24:29 will also take place with the sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling to the earth signaling the Lord's immediate return to end the age.

Hope this was beneficial

 

[Nehemiah6]

How many times will the same thing happen?

Just once.

Rev 6:14
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 16:20
And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Both of these are the same events, and correspond to Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:25, and Luke 21:25,26 : Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: ... And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken... And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Please note regarding the correspondence about the stars from heaven: And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. (Rev 6:13)

"and the stars shall fall from heaven" ... "And the stars of heaven shall fall"... "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars..."

But this is one major change in the chronological order since this occurs AFTER the Great Tribulation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Just once.


Both of these are the same events, and correspond to Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:25, and Luke 21:25,26 : Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: ... And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken... And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Please note regarding the correspondence about the stars from heaven: And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. (Rev 6:13)

"and the stars shall fall from heaven" ... "And the stars of heaven shall fall"... "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars..."

But this is one major change in the chronological order since this occurs AFTER the Great Tribulation.

I would greatly disagree with you here Nehemiah. That would be inferring that the 6th seal and the 7th bowl as being the same event, which they are not (See post 248). Rev.6: and 16:20 are similar, but different events. The 6th seal takes place within the first 3 1/2 years, where the 7th bowl judgment takes place at the end of the seven years when Christ returns to the earth to end the age.

 

[garee]

But garee did you consider the fact that Rev20 says the first resurrection includes those who didnt worship the beast nor take his mark? And those in Matthew 27:52 had not even been alive at the time of the beast, nor faced his mark?

I think that would depend on what taking the mark would mean. Personally I do not think the mark is a literal mark but rather the mark of Cain considered a beast of the field (666) a restless wanderer, not receiving the sabbath rest of God from his work of suffering (Hebrew 4) .But rather his heart remained hard all the days of his life .

 

[garee]

Yes the Lord will have a literal glorified resurrection body. Just like the saints will.

In fact to deny this is to drift away to gnosticism!

The Lord's body was withheld from seeing corruption decay for the three day demonstration . But I do not think that represents the incorruptible bodies that will be neither male no female, Jew nor gentile . Our new bodies will not be of corrupted flesh after any rudiment of this world .We simply do not know Christ in God who is not a man as us after the rudiments of this world .

We are to walk by faith the unseen eternal and not by what the eyes see after the temporal things of this world.

When the one time "demonstration" of the lamb of God who was slain from the foundation of the world, in respect to the "spiritual unseen work of pouring out His Spirit, the redemptive work was finished in the beginning . He rested on the seventh day from all the work .

He informed us that even though some did know him after the temporal outward appearance of flesh which he said profits not. When he disappeared out of sight just as he came without form he then said; we know him no more that way, forever more.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.2 Corinthians 5:16

This is a reflection of the hermeneutical prescription given for rightly dividing in the previous chapter 4: 18.

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Corinthians 4:18

Remember unless his outward appear vanished as the Son of man the Spirit of Christ the Holy Spirit as the Son of God would not come teach us guide us, comfort us and bring to mind the things he has taught us. God remains a eternal Spirit and not a fleshly man, as us.

 

[Nehemiah6]

That would be inferring that the 6th seal and the 7th bowl as being the same event, which they are not

I agree. They are not the same. So what we have is the events of the 6th seal taking place AFTER the 7th seal judgments. If it were not for the Olivet Discourse, we would not arrive at this conclusion.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

[garee]

I agree. They are not the same. So what we have is the events of the 6th seal taking place AFTER the 7th seal judgments. If it were not for the Olivet Discourse, we would not arrive at this conclusion.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Its the end of time the last day, a picture of the new heavens and earth, the time keepers are under the feet of His bride( Revelation 12) the new creation

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.Revelation21:22-23

 

[Hevosmies]

.

Thanks Ahwatukee. You are truly a blessing in these end-times studies. You have an answer for everything I ask, and a good one at that.

PS: Where are all the post-tribbers at? seems like they are a minority here. I have received 0 answers from them? WHERE YOU AT?

 

[garee]

Thanks Ahwatukee. You are truly a blessing in these end-times studies. You have an answer for everything I ask, and a good one at that.

PS: Where are all the post-tribbers at? seems like they are a minority here. I have received 0 answers from them? WHERE YOU AT?

They are still waiting for the revealing of the antichrists as are the pre-trippers.

The Amil, no literal thousand years know there are many here as there was when God was still adding to His word as anti-christs (plural) They are led by the spirit of the antichrist (one) Satan.

 

[Hevosmies]

Ahwatukee do you mind another question:

Matthew 25:31-46 the sheep and goats thing. Rapture happens, and Jesus returns, this is when that happens right? OK.

Look at the last verse it says the wicked go to hell and the sheep get 'eternal life'. How does that work when in the millenium people are supposed to get only temporal life, since they missed the rapture already? Why does it say 'eternal life'? does it only mean that they were saved? like the bible says if you believe in Jesus you have(present tense) eternal life, is thats what its talking about? Or what?