A question about original sin

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May 15, 2019
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#21
What if there had been no tempter/serpent and Eve had decided totally herself to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge then leading Adam to do the same?
Knowing our sinful human nature, that is perhaps not all that farfetched a scenario, surely?
God created human beings with free will. It seems to me we barely need the devil's encouragement a lot of the time to do what we know is wrong.
If there was no sin in the world until Adam and Eve sinned, then they did not have a “sinful nature. They were pure and innocent just like a new born baby. Ezekiel 18 is very clear that sin is NOT inherited. We do not herit sin from our parents. We did NOT inherit sin from Adam. Ezekiel 18 says that a person is only punished for his OWN sins—not someone else’s.

1Tim. 2:14 says Eve sinned because she was “DECEIVED” by Satan. 2 Cor.. 11:3 says Eve was deceived by the serpent.
 
May 15, 2019
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#22
.
A side effect of the forbidden fruit incident is something called the fallen
nature; which is commonly believed inherited from one's biological father.
Oh? Then whence did Eve get it? She was constructed with material taken
from Adam's body but that was all over and done with before he tasted the
forbidden fruit; so it was too late for him to transmit the fallen nature to Eve
via heredity.


FAQ: Did she get it from the fruit?

REPLY: Eve was the first to taste the forbidden fruit. When she did, nothing
happened. Eve went right on in the buff unashamed as usual. It wasn't till
Adam tasted the fruit that she got busy covering up her pelvic area with fig
leaves.


FAQ: If Eve's altered perception of decency wasn't due to the fruit, nor due
to heredity; then from where? Did God do it?


REPLY: Mr. Serpent-- a.k.a. the Devil (Rev 20:2) --is the logical source. He
has the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the human
body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke 13:16,
Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:1-2.


FAQ: Why didn't the Serpent tamper with Eve when she tasted the fruit?
Why wait till Adam tasted it?


REPLY: It was apparently God's purpose that if sin and death were to come
into the world, they would come thru the actions of one man working solo
just as life and righteousness would later come into the world thru the
actions of one man working solo. (Rom 5:12-21)


The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment
that Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it
takes effect. Not long after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both
immediately set to work cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to
cover up their pelvic areas.


FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people . . . in the womb or out
of the womb?


REPLY: Adam and his wife demonstrate the Serpent's ability to work on
adults, but I'm guessing he gets to most everyone else in the womb. (Ps
51:5 & ps 58:3)
_
“Something called the ‘fallen nature’ that was a side effect of eating the forbidden fruit is no where in the Bible that I know of. Scripture that says this?? This sounds an awful lot like man’s reasoning—not God’s.

Ezekiel 18 plainly says that sin is NOT INHERITED. We do not inherit sin from our fathers. We do not inherit Adam’s sin. Ezekiel says he could not have “passed “ it on. He says people die for their OWN SINS, not someone else’s sins. This false doctrine comes from John Calvin who was a MAN— not inspired, not deity, not our Savior—just a man with a false doctrine. 2 John 9 says if you don’t stay in the doctrine of Christ, you DONT HAVE GOD. It’s that simple.
 
Oct 24, 2012
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#23
I don't think Adam and Eve really knew what was happening. The fact Satan deceived the woman implies that both she and Adam didn't really know what they were doing fully. Hence the loss of innocence. Adam and Eve had a degree of innocence in the event even though they still transgressed and had to bear the consequences of that, but they also have a chance at redemption. Satan on the other hand has no degree of innocence, that's why the greater damnation belongs to him and he gets no chance for redemption.
I agree, yet seeing God in his love for all. Satan got defeated at the risen Son. Those keys Satan had got taken away Rev 1 talks Jesus now has the keys
and Hebrews 1 talks of waiting for all flesh to repent to God. Satan defeated, flesh not unless the person of flesh repents, changes his mind to belief to God and sticks to it will be freed in humility no more guilt, no more harming anyone again ever on purpose
 

SonJudgment

Well-known member
Jun 25, 2024
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#24
I agree, yet seeing God in his love for all. Satan got defeated at the risen Son. Those keys Satan had got taken away Rev 1 talks Jesus now has the keys
and Hebrews 1 talks of waiting for all flesh to repent to God. Satan defeated, flesh not unless the person of flesh repents, changes his mind to belief to God and sticks to it will be freed in humility no more guilt, no more harming anyone again ever on purpose
I don't really believe Satan even has any keys. Satan was defeated the moment he departed from the truth. His own trick is his own noose so to speak. All he really can do is sit there and lie to himself until the day he gets cast down and realizes how short his life really is and that he also is just a mortal creature that will die and then has an eternity in the Lake of Fire to look forward to.
 
Oct 24, 2012
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#25
I don't really believe Satan even has any keys. Satan was defeated the moment he departed from the truth. His own trick is his own noose so to speak. All he really can do is sit there and lie to himself until the day he gets cast down and realizes how short his life really is and that he also is just a mortal creature that will die and then has an eternity in the Lake of Fire to look forward to.
Okay< however it will play out it will, does and has
God wins, won for us in Son, waiting patiently for the people to sincerely choose to believe God or not. Then this age of grace will end. The new Heaven and Earth then begins, Amen , Hallelujah
 
Aug 25, 2024
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#26
Eve wouldn't have eaten if Satan didn't beguile her. This is obvious by her response to his first lie where she says that God forbade them to eat from the tree or else they would die. Mankind was created originally good, so they weren't created with an inherent sinful nature. It's only after Satan lies to her that she started to think differently.
True. Eve was innocent. She trusted what she was told because she didn't know any better.

We don't inherit Adams sin. In the Old Testament it tells us,we are responsible for our own sins. Sin entered the world through Adam,not Eve.

Lucifer sinned in Heaven leading the war against God. That's how sin entered here. Because it already existed by the Angels rebellion.
 
Aug 25, 2024
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#27
I don't really believe Satan even has any keys. Satan was defeated the moment he departed from the truth. His own trick is his own noose so to speak. All he really can do is sit there and lie to himself until the day he gets cast down and realizes how short his life really is and that he also is just a mortal creature that will die and then has an eternity in the Lake of Fire to look forward to.
Job shows us Satan can only do evil that God allows.

Who made a fallen angel after he led the rebellion in Heaven lord of Earth?
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#28
.
A side effect of the forbidden fruit incident is something called the fallen
nature; which is commonly believed inherited from one's biological father.
Oh? Then whence did Eve get it? She was constructed with material taken
from Adam's body but that was all over and done with before he tasted the
forbidden fruit; so it was too late for him to transmit the fallen nature to Eve
via heredity.


FAQ: Did she get it from the fruit?

REPLY: Eve was the first to taste the forbidden fruit. When she did, nothing
happened. Eve went right on in the buff unashamed as usual. It wasn't till
Adam tasted the fruit that she got busy covering up her pelvic area with fig
leaves.


FAQ: If Eve's altered perception of decency wasn't due to the fruit, nor due
to heredity; then from where? Did God do it?


REPLY: Mr. Serpent-- a.k.a. the Devil (Rev 20:2) --is the logical source. He
has the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the human
body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke 13:16,
Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:1-2.


FAQ: Why didn't the Serpent tamper with Eve when she tasted the fruit?
Why wait till Adam tasted it?


REPLY: It was apparently God's purpose that if sin and death were to come
into the world, they would come thru the actions of one man working solo
just as life and righteousness would later come into the world thru the
actions of one man working solo. (Rom 5:12-21)


The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment
that Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it
takes effect. Not long after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both
immediately set to work cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to
cover up their pelvic areas.


FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people . . . in the womb or out
of the womb?


REPLY: Adam and his wife demonstrate the Serpent's ability to work on
adults, but I'm guessing he gets to most everyone else in the womb. (Ps
51:5 & ps 58:3)
_
Re: Eve was the first to taste the forbidden fruit. When she did, nothing happened. Why wait till Adam tasted it?

You were headed the right direction but did not go all of the way. GN 3:6-7 says, "...she took some and ate it and also gave some to her husband who was with her and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened and they realized they were naked...".

The obvious import of this passage is that Adam and Eve were partners in crime/sin. Or, in view of GN 2:18 we might say that Eve helped Adam to sin. But there is no indication that one is less guilty than the other. BTW, Adam sinned again by trying to blame Eve, who sinned again by blaming the serpent. As soon as a soul realizes a sin was committed, he/she should confess it (1JN 1:9) rather than compound it by trying to hide it or cover it up like Adam and Eve did.

They both sinned and fell short of the glory of God--even though Paul seems to blame Adam more in RM 5:12 and Eve more in 2CR 11:3.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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#29
Ezekiel 18 is very clear that sin is NOT inherited. We do not herit sin from our parents. We did
NOT inherit sin from Adam. Ezekiel 18 says that a person is only punished for his OWN sins
not someone else’s.

Ezek 18:20 . .The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not
share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.
The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the
wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

FAQ: If the above is true, then how was it okay for God to make Adam's
posterity share his consequences per the forbidden fruit incident?

REPLY: The secret to this is simply timing. According to Deut 5:2-4 & Gal
3:17, the laws of God aren't retroactive.
_
 

Webers.Home

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May 28, 2018
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#30
GN 3:6-7 says, "...she took some and ate it and also gave some to her husband who was with her and he ate it.

The phrase "who was with her" has led some folks to suggest that Adam was
standing right there the whole time observing the entire incident; not saying
a word.

But the phrase could simply mean they were a cohabiting couple at the time,
viz: weren't split up living apart. For example: I've been with my wife 44
years without interruption though we often go our separate ways on errands
and appointments: vacations too. My wife likes to rendezvous with her sister
in the community of Santa Barbara California once a year for a week, viz:
she's been with me all this time, though not always at my side.

FAQ: Eve's creator no doubt observed the entire scene. Why didn't God jump
in and stop what He surely knew already would be a terrible mistake?

REPLY: Well; I hesitate to say it: but I rather suspect that God not only
anticipated Adam's fall; but was actually counting on it. (cf. Job 1:10-12 &
Job 2:4-7)

FAQ: Counting on it?

REPLY: Yes; because Jesus was designated and scheduled for the cross prior
to even one atom of the creation's construction. (Mic 5:2, 1Pet 1:18-20 &
Rev 13:8) In other words: Jesus wasn't an emergency responder sent to an
unexpected train wreck.
_
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#31
The phrase "who was with her" has led some folks to suggest that Adam was
standing right there the whole time observing the entire incident; not saying
a word.

But the phrase could simply mean they were a cohabiting couple at the time,
viz: weren't split up living apart. For example: I've been with my wife 44
years without interruption though we often go our separate ways on errands
and appointments: vacations too. My wife likes to rendezvous with her sister
in the community of Santa Barbara California once a year for a week, viz:
she's been with me all this time, though not always at my side.

FAQ: Eve's creator no doubt observed the entire scene. Why didn't God jump
in and stop what He surely knew already would be a terrible mistake?

REPLY: Well; I hesitate to say it: but I rather suspect that God not only
anticipated Adam's fall; but was actually counting on it. (cf. Job 1:10-12 &
Job 2:4-7)

FAQ: Counting on it?

REPLY: Yes; because Jesus was designated and scheduled for the cross prior
to even one atom of the creation's construction. (Mic 5:2, 1Pet 1:18-20 &
Rev 13:8) In other words: Jesus wasn't an emergency responder sent to an
unexpected train wreck.
_
Those other possibilities are not as simple or obvious.
 
May 15, 2019
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#32
Ezek 18:20 . .The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not
share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.
The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the
wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.


FAQ: If the above is true, then how was it okay for God to make Adam's
posterity share his consequences per the forbidden fruit incident?


REPLY: The secret to this is simply timing. According to Deut 5:2-4 & Gal
3:17, the laws of God aren't retroactive.
_
Because sin entered the world—regardless of who brought it in—once it was there, it was inevitable that we would suffer the CONSEQUENCES of sin. We have to live in a sinful world because of Adams sin. It’s like an alcoholic father who abuses his children and does not provide for their physical needs. The children of that father SUFFER consequences because of the sins of their father but they ARE NOT GUILTY of their father’s sin.
 
Nov 21, 2020
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#34
Original sin was purposed by God, so it was inevitable. Before the world was Created Christ was the ordained redeemer of His people 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who[Christ] verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
 

vassal

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2024
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#35
That's true.
I suppose I am trying to apply it to our lives. The question being, are we born good but become sinful and cynical only through the influence of others around us. Nature versus nurture argument.
Why did Eve decide to do the wrong thing, further, why did Adam follow her actions when he could have halted.
There is a point to consider, Obedience.
 
Oct 24, 2012
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#36
The Occam's Razor principle [the best solution is often the simplest solution] may be applicable here.
How about believe God by God you are made new in the risen Son for you and dead to first birth daily forever in this love and mercy given you. No more having to do to get in, be in or remain in, it is done by Son for you to be new presently forever in love and mercy given you, by God for you in risen Son for us all to stand in belief to this truth?
Do we see a Butterfly and ever call it an old converted worm? No
Why do we then not see what true born again by God is then? Why are we still alive to first birth in our thought(s). Is that because of unbelief to it is finished and Christ is risen, where new life is at to be given and is given, that we the people get confused in and told to not sin again. that cause one to be aware of sin, because our flesh nature is not yet redeemed, when it might be, that be between God and you, not me, thank you so ask God this very minute, see new in you, given you and not get anymore caught up in sin
As Romans 7 speaks of to us the people to see its truth
Only Father can and will reveal this to those that are sincere and do not have any want to harm anyone else ever again, thank you
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#37
How about believe God by God you are made new in the risen Son for you and dead to first birth daily forever in this love and mercy given you. No more having to do to get in, be in or remain in, it is done by Son for you to be new presently forever in love and mercy given you, by God for you in risen Son for us all to stand in belief to this truth?
Do we see a Butterfly and ever call it an old converted worm? No
Why do we then not see what true born again by God is then? Why are we still alive to first birth in our thought(s). Is that because of unbelief to it is finished and Christ is risen, where new life is at to be given and is given, that we the people get confused in and told to not sin again. that cause one to be aware of sin, because our flesh nature is not yet redeemed, when it might be, that be between God and you, not me, thank you so ask God this very minute, see new in you, given you and not get anymore caught up in sin
As Romans 7 speaks of to us the people to see its truth
Only Father can and will reveal this to those that are sincere and do not have any want to harm anyone else ever again, thank you
Good, although not as simple as "the phrase "who was with her" means Adam was with Eve and so they co-sinned.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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#38
"the phrase "who was with her" means Adam was with Eve and so they co-sinned.

Eve doesn't count in the matter of original sin. Adam's is the only sin that
makes a difference.

Rom 5:12 . . Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin

Rom 5:15 . . By the one man's offense many died

Rom 5:16 . .The judgment was by one to condemnation

Rom 5:17 . . By one man's offence death reigned by one

Rom 5:18 . . By the offence of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation

Rom 5:19 . .By one man's disobedience, many were made sinners

FAQ: Why doesn't Eve count?

REPLY: It was apparently in the divine plan all along that if sin and death were to
enter the world, they would do so by means of a lone man's actions similar
to how righteous and life would enter the world by a lone man's actions.
(Rom 5:12-21)
_
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#39
Eve doesn't count in the matter of original sin. Adam's is the only sin that
makes a difference.


Rom 5:12 . . Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin

Rom 5:15 . . By the one man's offense many died

Rom 5:16 . .The judgment was by one to condemnation

Rom 5:17 . . By one man's offence death reigned by one

Rom 5:18 . . By the offence of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation

Rom 5:19 . .By one man's disobedience, many were made sinners

FAQ: Why doesn't Eve count?

REPLY: It was apparently in the divine plan all along that if sin and death were to
enter the world, they would do so by means of a lone man's actions similar
to how righteous and life would enter the world by a lone man's actions.
(Rom 5:12-21)
_
It just seems like Paul should have given Adam's rib/ Eve equal credit, since in Christ both sexes are equal. (GL 3:28)
 
Nov 12, 2021
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#40
What if there had been no tempter/serpent and Eve had decided totally herself to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge then leading Adam to do the same?


MaryM -----

if there was no tempter in the Garden to entice deception and disobedience to God;s Command ---then God would Not have had to give the Command He did for them to not eat the Fruit of the tree of Good and Evil because there would be no Evil to worry about ----Adam and Eve would have been God's Puppets just obeying and doing what God Wanted ----there would be no Free will ----there would be no corrupt Nature to worry about ----there would be no sickness --no disease --no wars ---no fighting --we would all have a uncorrupt nature and all would be living under the Blessings of God ---Jesus would have not been sent to walk on the earth to die and be resurrected as we would all have eternal life ----or shed his blood for sin cause there would be no sin -----

God needed a Tempter to carry out His Plan that He made before He created this earth and all in it ---God allowed Satan to deceive Eve and then allowed Eve to get Adam to commit sin against God so that His Plan to bring His Son to save the world could play out -----God needed free will to be present ---so He gave His angels free will to choose to rebel against Him or not and He allowed one angel to rebel against Him and then other angels followed -----

The Tree of Life was also in the middle of the Garden and they could eat from that tree but they didn't touch that tree which would have left them in a Holy God State forever ----

-I personally think God Kept them from eating of that tree as again God had a plan and the tree of life would have kept His plan from being Executed -----

Satan had access to God in heaven and went into a meeting God was having -----

Good Read here ------
https://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-access.html

Satan was originally one of God’s holy angels, but he rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven (Luke 10:18). That was only the first stage of his judgment. Satan’s kingdom was vanquished at the cross (John 12:31–32). Later, he will be bound in the abyss for one thousand years (Revelation 20:1–3) and then will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity (Revelation 20:10).

Until his final judgment, Satan is "the prince of this world" (John 14:30), but it seems that he still has restricted access to the heavenly realms.
In Job 1:6, Satan stands in the presence of God. There is a similar situation in 2 Chronicles 18:18–21 involving a "lying spirit."


Since God is holy and absolutely without sin (Isaiah 6:3), and since He will not even look on evil (Habakkuk 1:13), how can Satan be in heaven?
The answer involves God’s sovereign restraint of sin. In Job 1, Satan stood before God to give an account of himself. God initiated the meeting, led the proceedings, and remained in absolute control (verse 7). The result was that Satan’s power was limited (verse 12) and God was glorified.

Here are some other facts to note:

1) Satan does not have open access to God’s presence. He is summoned by God.

2) The visits are temporary. His time before God’s throne is limited.

3) In no way is the purity of heaven tainted by the brief, God-ordained presence of a sinful being, "quarantined," as it were, by God’s regulatory power. And,

4) Satan’s access is only granted prior to the final judgment. After the judgment, God creates a new heaven and new earth (Revelation 21:1), wipes away all tears from our eyes (verse 4), reveals the New Jerusalem (verse 10), and promises the complete absence of sin (verse 27).

When we say, "God cannot allow sin into heaven," we simply mean that God cannot allow human beings who are still in their sin to live in His presence. But it is possible for God to command a sinful being to stand (temporarily) in His presence in order to commission him (Isaiah 6), to exact an account from him (Job 1-2), or to judge him (Revelation 20:11–15) without compromising His holiness.

God’s holiness will eventually consume all sin. Until that day, His holiness regulates sin, and that means that Satan, on certain occasions, is briefly summoned before his Creator to give an account of his actions

I say -------Satan is part of God's plan and will remain until Jesus comes back and defeats him and he is put away for a thousand years ----
But Wait---God's not done with Satan ---after the thousand years has ended Satan is released again --this is after the Millennial reign -----


Revelation 20 AMP Bible --and there is a footnote here ====on verse 8 tells you who these people are
  1. Revelation 20:8 Non-believing descendants of the survivors of the Tribulation.
The Final Rebellion
7 And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison (the abyss),

8 and will come out to deceive and mislead the [c]nations which are in the four corners of the earth—[including] Gog and Magog—to gather them together for the war; their number is like the sand of the seashore.

9 And they swarmed up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints (God’s people) and the beloved city [[d]Jerusalem]; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

10 And the devil who had deceived them was hurled into the lake of fire and burning brimstone (sulfur), where the beast (Antichrist) and false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever.

I say -------So Satan works for the Good of God's plan ----until His plan is complete -----