A Question
- Thread starter Seeker47
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
the blood of Jesus was the ransom he shed to Save the world from eternal damnation
And this was called the atoning sacrifice.
But the Good news was he never shed his spirit.
But Guess what he could of done if he hadn't of beat sin in the flesh.
As only he could,
There is no one worthy not one.
And this was called the atoning sacrifice.
But the Good news was he never shed his spirit.
But Guess what he could of done if he hadn't of beat sin in the flesh.
As only he could,
There is no one worthy not one.
-
1
- Show all
LDS soteriology:
"As used in Romans 10:9–10, the words “saved” and “salvation” signify a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. Through this covenant relationship, followers of Christ are assured salvation from the eternal consequences of sin if they are obedient."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/salvation?lang=eng&id=p1#p1
"As used in Romans 10:9–10, the words “saved” and “salvation” signify a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. Through this covenant relationship, followers of Christ are assured salvation from the eternal consequences of sin if they are obedient."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/salvation?lang=eng&id=p1#p1
-
2
-
1
- Show all
oneness pentecostal soteriology:
"We believe that salvation is based solely on the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ and is completely an undeserved gift of God. The Biblical experience of salvation consists of: faith, repentance, baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance."
https://www.onenesspentecostal.com/state.htm
"We believe that salvation is based solely on the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ and is completely an undeserved gift of God. The Biblical experience of salvation consists of: faith, repentance, baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance."
https://www.onenesspentecostal.com/state.htm
-
3
- Show all
JW soteriology:
"Salvation. Deliverance from sin and death is possible through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 4:12) To benefit from that sacrifice, people must not only exercise faith in Jesus but also change their course of life and get baptized."
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovah-witness-beliefs/
"Salvation. Deliverance from sin and death is possible through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 4:12) To benefit from that sacrifice, people must not only exercise faith in Jesus but also change their course of life and get baptized."
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovah-witness-beliefs/
-
3
- Show all
There are 8 sacraments altogether that are reported to impart saving grace, if I remember correctly. One is the priesthood and another is marriage. Since their priests are forbidden to marry, then only 7 are achievable.
One more important thing is that they consider it a mortal sin ( one that condemns to hell) to believe that you are going to heaven. They call it a sin of presumption. The question, "Are you 100% sure that if you died today that you would go to heaven?", is a question rarely answered yes by RCs. However, many American RCs are nominal and easier to lead to Christian than other religions.
One more important thing is that they consider it a mortal sin ( one that condemns to hell) to believe that you are going to heaven. They call it a sin of presumption. The question, "Are you 100% sure that if you died today that you would go to heaven?", is a question rarely answered yes by RCs. However, many American RCs are nominal and easier to lead to Christian than other religions.
-
2
- Show all
We have to have works which are works of love.
The Bible says that out of faith, hope, and charity, love in action, works, that charity is the greatest, and faith works by love.
Everything stems from love and love is greater than faith.
Not to have love which can only be done in works to be valid then our faith is no good.
Paul said he can have faith so that he can remove mountains but if he did not have charity then he is nothing.
Paul said if any person teaches that godliness is gain from such withdraw yourselves having food and clothing be content.
For the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, and love is the fulfilling of the law which is any person loves money by going by their wants then they have erred from the faith.
God only supplies our needs not our wants because He loves people.
We are to only go by our needs and any other money is to go to the poor and needy, and if not then we love money and that is not love then our faith is no good.
James pointed out that if people do not help out the poor and needy with the food and clothing if they can then their faith is dead.
Which he said a person is justified by works and not faith alone.
If a person does not help out people with their needs whatever that may be then their faith is no good which can be more than food and clothing.
Paul and James say the same thing that a person has to have works of love or else their faith is no good, and works can only be done in works.
John said if a person has the means to help the poor and needy and they do not do it then the love of God does not dwell in them.
Which he said do not love in word nor in tongue, but in deed, works, and in truth.
We have to have works to be saved for if we do not have works of love then our faith is not valid because love is greater than faith.
Love can only be done in works not by words to be valid.
If a person goes by their wants and does not physically help out the poor and needy then that is not love then their faith is no good.
Paul and James say the same thing to have works of love or else their faith is no good but people argue over them believing the are saying opposite.
We are saved by faith, and not by works, when we first confess Christ for that is all we can do.
But when we receive the Spirit then we have to have works of love to stay saved.
But many people that believe not saved by works go by their wants which neglects the poor and needy and then they say they are saved by faith but their faith will not save them if they do not love people.
The Bible also says that love does not think an evil thought, and does not rejoice in iniquity by enjoying sin, but rejoices in the truth to abstain from sin.
Which a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts and show the ways of the Spirit, and God will not allow them to be tempted above what they are able, and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it.
But many people who believe not saved by works are enjoying sin which is not love, and believe they are still right with God.
The Bible says some people have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
They do not allow the Spirit to lead them because they want to enjoy sin and then say they are right with God.
Many people who believe not saved by works enjoy sin and think they are right with God.
A person has to have works of love to have their faith valid in their life to be saved.
Some people believe water baptism is not necessary saying it is a work and not required.
But Jesus said you must be born of water and the Spirit.
Which the Bible says we are saved by water which is a good conscious towards God.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.
Water baptism is being buried with Jesus in the likeness of His death.
The Gospel of Christ is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, and we are to identify with Jesus by repenting of our sins, being water baptism, and receiving the Spirit.
A person cannot cut out the middle man by saying water baptism is not necessary.
Water baptism is part of the salvation plan of God.
It is strange that people say it is a work so it is not necessary when it is part of the salvation plan of God.
1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father.
2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power.
Everything we think and do is a work and even faith is a work.
The Bible says that out of faith, hope, and charity, love in action, works, that charity is the greatest, and faith works by love.
Everything stems from love and love is greater than faith.
Not to have love which can only be done in works to be valid then our faith is no good.
Paul said he can have faith so that he can remove mountains but if he did not have charity then he is nothing.
Paul said if any person teaches that godliness is gain from such withdraw yourselves having food and clothing be content.
For the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, and love is the fulfilling of the law which is any person loves money by going by their wants then they have erred from the faith.
God only supplies our needs not our wants because He loves people.
We are to only go by our needs and any other money is to go to the poor and needy, and if not then we love money and that is not love then our faith is no good.
James pointed out that if people do not help out the poor and needy with the food and clothing if they can then their faith is dead.
Which he said a person is justified by works and not faith alone.
If a person does not help out people with their needs whatever that may be then their faith is no good which can be more than food and clothing.
Paul and James say the same thing that a person has to have works of love or else their faith is no good, and works can only be done in works.
John said if a person has the means to help the poor and needy and they do not do it then the love of God does not dwell in them.
Which he said do not love in word nor in tongue, but in deed, works, and in truth.
We have to have works to be saved for if we do not have works of love then our faith is not valid because love is greater than faith.
Love can only be done in works not by words to be valid.
If a person goes by their wants and does not physically help out the poor and needy then that is not love then their faith is no good.
Paul and James say the same thing to have works of love or else their faith is no good but people argue over them believing the are saying opposite.
We are saved by faith, and not by works, when we first confess Christ for that is all we can do.
But when we receive the Spirit then we have to have works of love to stay saved.
But many people that believe not saved by works go by their wants which neglects the poor and needy and then they say they are saved by faith but their faith will not save them if they do not love people.
The Bible also says that love does not think an evil thought, and does not rejoice in iniquity by enjoying sin, but rejoices in the truth to abstain from sin.
Which a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts and show the ways of the Spirit, and God will not allow them to be tempted above what they are able, and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it.
But many people who believe not saved by works are enjoying sin which is not love, and believe they are still right with God.
The Bible says some people have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
They do not allow the Spirit to lead them because they want to enjoy sin and then say they are right with God.
Many people who believe not saved by works enjoy sin and think they are right with God.
A person has to have works of love to have their faith valid in their life to be saved.
Some people believe water baptism is not necessary saying it is a work and not required.
But Jesus said you must be born of water and the Spirit.
Which the Bible says we are saved by water which is a good conscious towards God.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.
Water baptism is being buried with Jesus in the likeness of His death.
The Gospel of Christ is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, and we are to identify with Jesus by repenting of our sins, being water baptism, and receiving the Spirit.
A person cannot cut out the middle man by saying water baptism is not necessary.
Water baptism is part of the salvation plan of God.
It is strange that people say it is a work so it is not necessary when it is part of the salvation plan of God.
1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father.
2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power.
Everything we think and do is a work and even faith is a work.
Two mistakes:
One was an auto "correct" that keeps changing my posts from CHRIST to "However, many American RCs are nominal and easier to lead to Christian than other religions.".
.as it did in my previous post. Like the Catholic Church leaders, it can't leave Christ alone.
I was incorrect on the number of sacraments. You were right, there were 7 not 8; however baptism is not "the key. "
I can see how you would think that though. The Anabaptist, not to be confused with those calling themselves that today, were slaughtered for rebaptizing their converts as adults.
The Roman Catholic Church teaches far more works than water baptism by their authority. They deem each of them required for salvation. Anyone who says otherwise is considered anathema.
This is a summary.
One was an auto "correct" that keeps changing my posts from CHRIST to "However, many American RCs are nominal and easier to lead to Christian than other religions.".
.as it did in my previous post. Like the Catholic Church leaders, it can't leave Christ alone.
I was incorrect on the number of sacraments. You were right, there were 7 not 8; however baptism is not "the key. "
I can see how you would think that though. The Anabaptist, not to be confused with those calling themselves that today, were slaughtered for rebaptizing their converts as adults.
The Roman Catholic Church teaches far more works than water baptism by their authority. They deem each of them required for salvation. Anyone who says otherwise is considered anathema.
This is a summary.
"ON THE SACRAMENTS IN GENERAL
CANON I.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by Jesus Christ, our Lord; or, that they are more, or less, than seven, to wit, Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Order, and Matrimony; or even that any one of these seven is not truly and properly a sacrament; let him be anathema.
CANON II.-If any one saith, that these said sacraments of the New Law do not differ from the sacramnets of the Old Law, save that the ceremonies are different, and different the outward rites; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that these seven sacraments are in such wise equal to each other, as that one is not in any way more worthy than another; let him be anathema.
CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that these sacraments were instituted for the sake of nourishing faith alone; let him be anathema.
CANON VI.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law do not contain the grace which they signify; or, that they do not confer that grace on those who do not place an obstacle thereunto; as though they were merely outward signs of grace or justice received through faith, and certain marks of the Christian profession, whereby believers are distinguished amongst men from unbelievers; let him be anathema.
CANON VII.-If any one saith, that grace, as far as God's part is concerned, is not given through the said sacraments, always, and to all men, even though they receive them rightly, but (only) sometimes, and to some persons; let him be anathema.
CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that by the said sacraments of the New Law grace is not conferred through the act performed, but that faith alone in the divine promise suffices for the obtaining of grace; let him be anathema.
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that, in the three sacrments, Baptism, to wit, Confirmation, and Order, there is not imprinted in the soul a character, that is, a certain spiritual and indelible Sign, on account of which they cannot be repeated; let him be anathema.
CANON X.-If any one saith, that all Christians have power to administer the word, and all the sacraments; let him be anathema.
CANON XI.-If any one saith, that, in ministers, when they effect, and confer the sacraments, there is not required the intention at least of doing what the Church does; let him be anathema.
CANON XII.-If any one saith, that a minister, being in mortal sin,-if so be that he observe all the essentials which belong to the effecting, or conferring of, the sacrament,-neither effects, nor confers the sacrament; let him be anathema.
CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.
ON BAPTISM
CANON I.-If any one saith, that the baptism of John had the same force as the baptism of Christ; let him be anathema.
CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that in the Roman church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism; let him be anathema.
CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the baptism which is even given by heretics in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, with the intention of doing what the Church doth, is not true baptism; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.
CANON VI.-If any one saith, that one who has been baptized cannot, even if he would, lose grace, let him sin ever so much, unless he will not believe; let him be anathema.
CANON VII.-If any one saith, that the baptized are, by baptism itself, made debtors but to faith alone, and not to the observance of the whole law of Christ; let him be anathema.
CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that the baptized are freed from all the precepts, whether written or transmitted, of holy Church, in such wise that they are not bound to observe them, unless they have chosen of their own accord to submit themselves thereunto; let him be anathema.
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that the resemblance of the baptism which they have received is so to be recalled unto men, as that they are to understand, that all vows made after baptism are void, in virtue of the promise already made in that baptism; as if, by those vows, they both derogated from that faith which they have professed, and from that baptism itself; let him be anathema.
CANON X.-If any one saith, that by the sole remembrance and the faith of the baptism which has been received, all sins committed after baptism are either remitted, or made venial; let him be anathema.
CANON XI.-If any one saith, that baptism, which was true and rightly conferred, is to be repeated, for him who has denied the faith of Christ amongst Infidels, when he is converted unto penitence; let him be anathema.
CANON XII.-If any one saith, that no one is to be baptized save at that age at which Christ was baptized, or in the very article of death; let him be anathema.
CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that little children, for that they have not actual faith, are not, after having received baptism, to be reckoned amongst the faithful; and that, for this cause, they are to be rebaptized when they have attained to years of discretion; or, that it is better that the baptism of such be omitted, than that, while not believing by their own act, they should be bapized in the faith alone of the Church; let him be anathema.
CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that those who have been thus baptized when children, are, when they have grown up, to be asked whether they will ratify what their sponsors promised in their names when they were baptized; and that, in case they answer that they will not, they are to be left to their own will; and are not to be compelled meanwhile to a Christian life by any other penalty, save that they be excluded from the participation of the Eucharist, and of the other sacraments, until they repent; let him be anathema.
ON CONFIRMATION
CANON I.-If any one saith, that the confirmation of those who have been baptized is an idle ceremony, and not rather a true and proper sacrament; or that of old it was nothing more than a kind of catechism, whereby they who were near adolescence gave an account of their faith in the face of the Church; let him be anathema.
CANON II.-If any one saith, that they who ascribe any virtue to the sacred chrism of confirmation, offer an outrage to the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that the ordinary minister of holy confirmation is not the bishop alone, but any simple priest soever; let him be anathema."
Yes, the Roman Catholic Church.
"Canon 24. If anyone says that justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely fruits and signs of justification obtained, not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema." Council of Trent Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification.
So if you say works are merely the fruit of justification and not the cause of its increase you're accursed according to the RCC.
"Canon 24. If anyone says that justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely fruits and signs of justification obtained, not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema." Council of Trent Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification.
So if you say works are merely the fruit of justification and not the cause of its increase you're accursed according to the RCC.
-
1
- Show all
Can theology save? Of course not. But that's not the issue. Theology usually informs a person's behavior. What they believe is a good indicator of how they act. If they believe works can add something to the grace of Christ or to justification, they'll act accordingly. God doesn't want us to trust in our own efforts, but in His unmerited favor.
-
1
- Show all
agree! you know, one sees people asserting if you don't believe such and such an eschatology, or belief concerning other peripherals, you're anathematized! kinda silly, really.
i guess in a sense theology does matter, eh? if we don't have the Person and Work of Christ right, it ain't a good sign.
ps-- apologies to the OP for the tangent!
i guess in a sense theology does matter, eh? if we don't have the Person and Work of Christ right, it ain't a good sign.
ps-- apologies to the OP for the tangent!