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selahsays

selahsays

Well-known member
#61
May 31, 2023
2,503
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#61
(Berean Standard Bible)

Revelation 19:

1After this I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude in heaven, shouting:
“Hallelujah!a
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God!
2For His judgments are true and just.
He has judged the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth with her immorality.
He has avenged the blood of His servants
that was poured out by her hand.”
3And a second time they called out:
“Hallelujah!
Her smoke rises forever and ever.”
4And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne, saying:
“Amen, Hallelujah!”
5Then a voice came from the throne, saying:
“Praise our God,
all you who serve Him,
and those who fear Him,
small and great alike!”
The Marriage of the Lamb
6And I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude, like the rushing of many waters, and like a mighty rumbling of thunder, crying out:
“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our Godb the Almighty reigns.
7Let us rejoice and be glad
and give Him the glory.
For the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and His bride has made herself ready.
8She was given clothing of fine linen,
bright and pure.”
For the fine linen she wears is the righteous acts of the saints.
 
Lamar

Lamar

Active member
#62
May 21, 2023
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#62
The_Watchers_2017 said:
you responded to my post with it, and I wondered if you were claiming that's what i meant, or that you just added your thoughts to a post you quoted, that happened to be me?
Click to expand...
Obeying the works of the Old Testament law was to remove (remission) the guilt of sin.

Hebrews 9:22
Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and with out the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#63
Mar 1, 2022
15,051
5,409
113
62
#63
selahsays said:
(Berean Standard Bible)

Revelation 19:

1After this I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude in heaven, shouting:
“Hallelujah!a
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God!
2For His judgments are true and just.
He has judged the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth with her immorality.
He has avenged the blood of His servants
that was poured out by her hand.”
3And a second time they called out:
“Hallelujah!
Her smoke rises forever and ever.”
4And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne, saying:
“Amen, Hallelujah!”
5Then a voice came from the throne, saying:
“Praise our God,
all you who serve Him,
and those who fear Him,
small and great alike!”
The Marriage of the Lamb
6And I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude, like the rushing of many waters, and like a mighty rumbling of thunder, crying out:
“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our Godb the Almighty reigns.
7Let us rejoice and be glad
and give Him the glory.
For the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and His bride has made herself ready.
8She was given clothing of fine linen,
brightand pure.”
For the fine linen she wears is the righteous acts of the saints.
Click to expand...
That's not a good translation. The righteousness that is pure white is the righteousness of Jesus.
That's why Paul in philippians 3 says...being found in Him, having no righteousness of my own. Our righteousness is described in Isaiah 64:6.
 
Lamar

Lamar

Active member
#64
May 21, 2023
470
65
28
#64
selahsays said:
(Berean Standard Bible)

Revelation 19:

1After this I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude in heaven, shouting:
“Hallelujah!a
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God!
2For His judgments are true and just.
He has judged the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth with her immorality.
He has avenged the blood of His servants
that was poured out by her hand.”
3And a second time they called out:
“Hallelujah!
Her smoke rises forever and ever.”
4And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne, saying:
“Amen, Hallelujah!”
5Then a voice came from the throne, saying:
“Praise our God,
all you who serve Him,
and those who fear Him,
small and great alike!”
The Marriage of the Lamb
6And I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude, like the rushing of many waters, and like a mighty rumbling of thunder, crying out:
“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our Godb the Almighty reigns.
7Let us rejoice and be glad
and give Him the glory.
For the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and His bride has made herself ready.
8She was given clothing of fine linen,
bright and pure.”
For the fine linen she wears is the righteous acts of the saints.
Click to expand...
These scriptures will not work here. Their minds are shut to anything other than faith alone regeneration theology.
 
Lamar

Lamar

Active member
#65
May 21, 2023
470
65
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#65
Cameron143 said:
That's not a good translation. The righteousness that is pure white is the righteousness of Jesus.
That's why Paul in philippians 3 says...being found in Him, having no righteousness of my own. Our righteousness is described in Isaiah 64:6.
Click to expand...
Cameron143 said:
That's not a good translation. The righteousness that is pure white is the righteousness of Jesus.
That's why Paul in philippians 3 says...being found in Him, having no righteousness of my own. Our righteousness is described in Isaiah 64:6.
Click to expand...
"That's not a good translation."

I wish I had a nickel for every time I have heard, "That's not a good translation." excuse.

Okay, what is a "good translation" of this verse?

Make sure you use your faith alone regeneration theology filter before picking.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#66
Mar 1, 2022
15,051
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#66
Lamar said:
"That's not a good translation."

I wish I had a nickel for every time I have heard, "That's not a good translation." excuse.

Okay, what is a "good translation" of this verse?

Make sure you use your faith alone regeneration theology filter before picking.
Click to expand...
Just use the KJV and you will see that it is speaking of righteousness that one has been clothed in and not righteous acts.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#67
Jul 18, 2017
24,598
13,017
113
#67
Lamar said:
Where in what you presented states that they are earning salvation by fulfilling these commands?
Click to expand...
VI. The Necessity of Baptism
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.
Quoted from The Catechism of the Catholic Church

But the Lord did not say any such thing if His words are properly understood.
 
GRACE_ambassador

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
#68
Feb 22, 2021
2,985
1,415
113
Midwest
#68
Lamar said:
Acts of obedience are not acts of merit. This is not a hard concept to grasp.
Click to expand...
Not very difficult if properly 'clarified' - ie:

Acts of righteousness are not acts of 'meriting' salvation (Grace Through faith), but
are 'acts of merit' for "receiving rewards," Correct?

Amen.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#69
Mar 1, 2022
15,051
5,409
113
62
#69
GRACE_ambassador said:
Not very difficult if properly 'clarified' - ie:

Acts of righteousness are not acts of 'meriting' salvation (Grace Through faith), but
are 'acts of merit' for "receiving rewards," Correct?

Amen.
Click to expand...
If they are necessary acts to ascribe to a certain condition, they are by definition meritorious.
 
Lamar

Lamar

Active member
#70
May 21, 2023
470
65
28
#70
GRACE_ambassador said:
Not very difficult if properly 'clarified' - ie:

Acts of righteousness are not acts of 'meriting' salvation (Grace Through faith), but
are 'acts of merit' for "receiving rewards," Correct?

Amen.
Click to expand...
That is not what I wrote.

I don't even know how to respond to your question.
 
Lamar

Lamar

Active member
#71
May 21, 2023
470
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#71
Cameron143 said:
If they are necessary acts to ascribe to a certain condition, they are by definition meritorious.
Click to expand...
You are but grasping at straws.

Faith is a "necessary act to ascribe to a certain condition". Does this make faith an act of merit?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#72
Mar 1, 2022
15,051
5,409
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#72
Lamar said:
You are but grasping at straws.

Faith is a "necessary act to ascribe to a certain condition". Does this make faith an act of merit?
Click to expand...
Faith is not an act. Faith is an estate. Either you believe or you do not. Faith comes by hearing. Hearing comes by the word of God.

If faith came by baptism you might convince me.
 
Lamar

Lamar

Active member
#73
May 21, 2023
470
65
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#73
Nehemiah6 said:
VI. The Necessity of Baptism
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.
Quoted from The Catechism of the Catholic Church

But the Lord did not say any such thing if His words are properly understood.
Click to expand...
Come on now, you know the verse.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)

That sounds necessary to me.

Let me guess:

I am not properly understanding it or it's a bad translation.
 
T

Ted01

Well-known member
#74
May 14, 2022
1,055
448
83
#74
Lamar said:
Come on now, you know the verse.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)

That sounds necessary to me.

Let me guess:

I am not properly understanding it or it's a bad translation.
Click to expand...
The "condemned" are the people who don't believe (faith)... yet some condemn those who don't get baptized, why is that?
 
Lamar

Lamar

Active member
#75
May 21, 2023
470
65
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#75
Cameron143 said:
Faith is not an act. Faith is an estate. Either you believe or you do not. Faith comes by hearing. Hearing comes by the word of God.

If faith came by baptism you might convince me.
Click to expand...
"If faith came by baptism you might convince me."

This has nothing to do with the issue at hand. This is not about baptism. It is about the charge that certain churches believe they are earning their salvation by fulfilling acts of obedience.

You are simply attempting to muddy the waters.
 
Beckie

Beckie

Well-known member
#76
Feb 15, 2022
2,516
935
113
#76
Seeker47 said:
This is not a rhetorical question, but a question seeking information.

Can anyone direct me to a church, a minister, a denomination, a speaker, an author, or anyone else that preach salvation by works? I would like to know what they actually say so I may judge their positions based on their own words.

I will follow up on as many as I can.
Click to expand...
First that come to mind are LDS JW SDA
 
Lamar

Lamar

Active member
#77
May 21, 2023
470
65
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#77
Ted01 said:
The "condemned" are the people who don't believe (faith)... yet some condemn those who don't get baptized, why is that?
Click to expand...
The condemned?

What about the saved, that should be the focus.

There are only two types of people in the world, the saved and the condemned.

Jesus said the:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved (Type A)
whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Type B)

So what again is your point about the condemned?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#78
Mar 1, 2022
15,051
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#78
Lamar said:
"If faith came by baptism you might convince me."

This has nothing to do with the issue at hand. This is not about baptism. It is about the charge that certain churches believe they are earning their salvation by fulfilling acts of obedience.

You are simply attempting to muddy the waters.
Click to expand...
Not at all. I'm trying to rescue you out of the muddy waters.
Is salvation predicated on baptism? If no, one can have salvation apart from it. Do you believe someone can be saved apart from baptism?
 
Lamar

Lamar

Active member
#79
May 21, 2023
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#79
Cameron143 said:
Just use the KJV and you will see that it is speaking of righteousness that one has been clothed in and not righteous acts.
Click to expand...
This is the text:

8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Oops! This is the NKJV. Sorry wrong filter.

BTW the KJV version does not change the meaning of the verse.

"Her" is still the pronoun and the "of" still refers to her righteousness.

Are you a KJV only or just if it fits the issue at hand?
 
Lamar

Lamar

Active member
#80
May 21, 2023
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#80
Cameron143 said:
Not at all. I'm trying to rescue you out of the muddy waters.
Is salvation predicated on baptism? If no, one can have salvation apart from it. Do you believe someone can be saved apart from baptism?
Click to expand...
I will not go down this muddy rabbit hole with you. Have you forgotten what the OP is about?
 
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