A woman as a Pastor? Does it make it right if there is a need for pastors?

[WebersHome]

-
If it wasn't so sad, it would almost be humorous to watch people quote
Paul's writings as proof texts to refute Paul's writings; viz: Paul vs Paul.
(chuckle) The clash of the titans; except that in this case, the titans
clashing with each other are both Paul. Here's what I mean:

†. Gal 3:28 . . There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor
free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

That's a favorite proof text amongst the equality faction. But the apostle of
Jesus Christ who wrote Gal 3:28 is the same apostle of Jesus Christ who
wrote the passages below:

†. 1Cor 11:3 . . But I would have you know, that the head of every man is
Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is
God.

†. 1Tim 2:11-12 . . Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I
suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be
in silence.

†. 1Cor 14:34-35 . . Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is
not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under
obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask
their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

One of Paul's reasons for prohibiting females to preach to and/or teach
Christ's men, is primogeniture.

†. 1Tim 2:13 . . For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Another reason is that it puts females in a position to ruin Christ's men very
similar to how Eve ruined Adam.

†. 1Tim 2:14 . . Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was
deceived and became a sinner.

In her deceived condition; Eve talked Adam into following her lead.

†. Gen 3:17 . .You listened to your wife

I seriously doubt that Eve deliberately set out to ruin Adam. I believe she
inadvertently ruined him. In other words; hers was what we might call an
honest mistake because she was in a deceived state of mind.

That's the very same mental condition of females preaching to and/or
teaching Christ's men. They have been deceived into sincerely believing that
they are doing nothing wrong. Well; the result is the very same result as
before: Christ's men who permit themselves to be preached to and/or taught
by females, end up disobeying Christ just as Adam disobeyed God because
Paul's rules are Christ's rules.

†. 1Cor 14:37 . . If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let
him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the
commandments of The Lord.

†. 1Ths 4:1-2 . .We beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord
Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please
God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments
we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

Though they cannot see it because of their deceived mental state: females
preaching to and/or teaching Christ's men; are Christ's enemies.

†. John 15:14 . .You are my friends if you do as I wish.

And they're disloyal too.

†. John 14:15 . . If you love me, you will comply with what I command.

†. John 14:21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one
who loves me.

†. John 14:23-24 . . If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching . . He
who does not love me will not obey my teaching.

==================================

 

[JackH]

-

Though they cannot see it because of their deceived mental state: females
preaching to and/or teaching Christ's men; are Christ's enemies.

What about men who disagree with you?

How did they get deceived, exactly?

You know, you don't refute much of what is said in support of women having the same "rights" as men.

You just keep regurgitating the same verses and repeating the same garbage about women being the Christ's enemies.

So then, did the Catholic church get it right on this issue?

 

[Dan_473]

I think it's important to consider that how Christians have read the bible has changed over time... I think the nt teaches that slaves should obey their masters... but very few of us, if we were captured by slavers operating here in the usa, would live in submission to our masters... most would try to escape, imo...

 

[WebersHome]

-

What about men who disagree with you?

This thread isn't about male preachers and teachers.

You just keep regurgitating the same verses and repeating the same
garbage

Had Eve regurgitated and repeated God's prohibition against eating the fruit,
she would not have been so easily defeated. Eve's fatal mistake was in
letting the Serpent pull her away from God's words. I have made up mind
not to duplicate her error by letting people pull me away from Paul's words
seeing as how according to 1Cor 14:37 and 1Ths 4:1-2, Paul's words are
Christ's words

†. 1Cor 16:13 . . Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of
courage; be strong.

†. Eph 6:16-17 . .Take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish
all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the
sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

†. 1Pet 5:8-9 . . Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the Devil prowls
around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him,
standing firm in the faith

†. Jas 4:7 . . Resist the Devil, and he will flee from you.

FYI: The koinè Greek word for "usurp" in 1Tim 2:11-12 is authenteo (ow
then-teh'-o) which means to act of oneself; viz: to dominate.

In other words: females who violate the principle of primogeniture as per
1Tim 2:13, and who disobey 1Tim 2:11-12 by preaching to and/or teaching
Christian men, are nothing less than head-strong women; and head-strong
women are no different than pagan heathens.

†. 1Sam 15:22-23 . . Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and
sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than
sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of
witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.

Christianity is not for everybody. If people find its rules of conduct too strict,
too old fashioned and/or too contrary to their culture, then maybe they
ought to take up something else, like maybe Buddhism or Yoga meditation.
But one thing no one should do is take up Christianity with the thought of
reforming it. You see, that would be the sin of heresy, which is a sin that
merits ostracizing.

†. Rom 16:17 . .Watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles
in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away
from them.

†. Titus 3:10-11 . . Reject a divisive person after the first and second
admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self
condemned.

==========================================

 

[kaylagrl]

-
If it wasn't so sad, it would almost be humorous to watch people quote
Paul's writings as proof texts to refute Paul's writings; viz: Paul vs Paul.
(chuckle) The clash of the titans; except that in this case, the titans
clashing with each other are both Paul. Here's what I mean:

†. Gal 3:28 . . There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor
free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

That's a favorite proof text amongst the equality faction. But the apostle of
Jesus Christ who wrote Gal 3:28 is the same apostle of Jesus Christ who
wrote the passages below:

†. 1Cor 11:3 . . But I would have you know, that the head of every man is
Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is
God.

†. 1Tim 2:11-12 . . Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I
suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be
in silence.

†. 1Cor 14:34-35 . . Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is
not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under
obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask
their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

One of Paul's reasons for prohibiting females to preach to and/or teach
Christ's men, is primogeniture.

†. 1Tim 2:13 . . For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Another reason is that it puts females in a position to ruin Christ's men very
similar to how Eve ruined Adam.

†. 1Tim 2:14 . . Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was
deceived and became a sinner.

In her deceived condition; Eve talked Adam into following her lead.

†. Gen 3:17 . .You listened to your wife

I seriously doubt that Eve deliberately set out to ruin Adam. I believe she
inadvertently ruined him. In other words; hers was what we might call an
honest mistake because she was in a deceived state of mind.

That's the very same mental condition of females preaching to and/or
teaching Christ's men. They have been deceived into sincerely believing that
they are doing nothing wrong. Well; the result is the very same result as
before: Christ's men who permit themselves to be preached to and/or taught
by females, end up disobeying Christ just as Adam disobeyed God because
Paul's rules are Christ's rules.

†. 1Cor 14:37 . . If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let
him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the
commandments of The Lord.

†. 1Ths 4:1-2 . .We beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord
Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please
God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments
we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

Though they cannot see it because of their deceived mental state: females
preaching to and/or teaching Christ's men; are Christ's enemies.

†. John 15:14 . .You are my friends if you do as I wish.

And they're disloyal too.

†. John 14:15 . . If you love me, you will comply with what I command.

†. John 14:21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one
who loves me.

†. John 14:23-24 . . If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching . . He
who does not love me will not obey my teaching.

==================================

Though I disagree with parts of that I appreciate your softer response.

 

[kaylagrl]

Who really believes this kind of sycophant political correctness? If someone says men are smarter than women, everyone boos. But if someone says women are smarter than women, the men don't boo, and some of the women clap.

Why did God make rules about men and women?

Sirk was being tongue in cheek I believe.

 

[Angela53510]

You know why I think it should not... the KJV doesn't say deacon. No offence, I'm not trying to derail the thread lol.
I won't argue the points you made, I don't agree with them but I see where you're coming from.

Paul makes mention of Phebe's church and that proves Phebe's a leader in the church. There's no way to argue against that.
Danke says Pauls commendation to Phebe goes beyond those of cultic attendants so that make her a deacon. No way to argue against that either.

I think I could argue against the following though.

I only see three places in the bible where diakonos is translated deacon.... none of them mention Paul, Timothy, Ephrapas and others. Which verses are you talking about?

My bad! I've been bedridden for 2 days in excruciating pain, and the pain killers must have boggled my brain. I meant to say something about diakonos being used for specific examples of "ministers" as translated from the Greek. So if Paul, Timothy and others are diaknonos translated "ministers" then Phoebe's case also deserves the use of the word "minister" rather than servant.

Or vice versa. Paul is a servant, Timothy is a servant, and Ephrathas is a servant. Same word, used for a specific individual, for a specific church, translate it the same way.

Please pray for me that this pain will vanish.

 

[KJV1611]

My bad! I've been bedridden for 2 days in excruciating pain, and the pain killers must have boggled my brain. I meant to say something about diakonos being used for specific examples of "ministers" as translated from the Greek. So if Paul, Timothy and others are diaknonos translated "ministers" then Phoebe's case also deserves the use of the word "minister" rather than servant.

Or vice versa. Paul is a servant, Timothy is a servant, and Ephrathas is a servant. Same word, used for a specific individual, for a specific church, translate it the same way.

Please pray for me that this pain will vanish.

Praying for ya sister! When get to feeling better, let's pick it back up... I actually enjoy debating you.

 

[Utah]

My bad! I've been bedridden for 2 days in excruciating pain.

God's punishing you for being a female pastor! lol.

My Lady, rest assured you are in our heartfelt prayers.

Feel better soon, we need you here in full strength!

 

[Angela53510]

Thanks to both of you!

 

[Stephen63]

From where I sit, it seems that if we could prove the woman usurping authority over the man was family only, the naysayer's argument would fall apart. But there is still another point in scripture that proves the leadership issue to be false.

WHO in the New Testament used his authority over another? Nowhere is it written that it actually happened, except in 3John:

3 John 1:9-10 (KJV) [SUP]9 [/SUP]I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

Diotrephes is the only one that usurped authority in the NT, & when he did, it was totally wrong.

You see, Neither Jesus nor the apostles EVER taught that christians in any ministry had the right to use authority over other christians. The truth is, the OPPOSITE was taught:

Mark 9:35 (KJV) And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Mark 10:42-45 (KJV) [SUP]42 [/SUP]But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. [SUP]43 [/SUP]But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: [SUP]44 [/SUP]And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. [SUP]45 [/SUP]For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

So as we can see, this "usurping authority" by the women would have been in the family unit, & not the church, for none of the leaders were allowed to do it.

What? Where are the naysayers now? Why did they skip around this? Do we really have to say why?

 

[KJV1611]

What? Where are the naysayers now? Why did they skip around this? Do we really have to say why?

We skipped around this because you didn't say anything. We believe the bible... a woman is not allowed to teach nor usurp authority over a man?

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

 

[JackH]

We skipped around this because you didn't say anything. We believe the bible... a woman is not allowed to teach nor usurp authority over a man?

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

A number of those posting on this thread advocating discrimination against women have said that a woman can teach but not be a pastor.

Now which is it?

Since some are saying a woman's eternal destiny is at stake (as in, being an enemy of Christ), this could be an important issue to get the right answer for.

 

[notuptome]

What? Where are the naysayers now? Why did they skip around this? Do we really have to say why?

Context please. Jesus is the head of the church. The church is a body with many parts. The church needs all of it's parts to function just like a body must have all it's parts to function. The hand does not vaunt itself above the foot but Christ is always the head.

Just as the apostles in the early church appointed deacons to help with the administration of the church we have a hierarchy for administration in the church. Pastors as under-shepherds are charged with the care and feeding of the flock. There are wolves who come in and scatter the flock caring not for the flock but only their own gain.

The world today is full of apostates who know what is right but have no interest in doing right. They only teach enough right to obtain the power and position they covet.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stephen63]

Context please. Jesus is the head of the church. The church is a body with many parts. The church needs all of it's parts to function just like a body must have all it's parts to function. The hand does not vaunt itself above the foot but Christ is always the head.

Just as the apostles in the early church appointed deacons to help with the administration of the church we have a hierarchy for administration in the church. Pastors as under-shepherds are charged with the care and feeding of the flock. There are wolves who come in and scatter the flock caring not for the flock but only their own gain.

The world today is full of apostates who know what is right but have no interest in doing right. They only teach enough right to obtain the power and position they covet.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Context? Jesus spoke plainly & I used all the verses for clarity.

As far as wolves looking for their own gain, I've never met any woman pastor, y'know, any of those little grannies we've been talking about making a fortune off of the church. If anything, they barely have anything to retire on. As far as being famous or self-made popular, they're not. They're servants. They're usually prayer warriors.

In case you've haven't noticed, the fruit doesn't match the accusation.

 

[Dude653]

-
Paul's rules are Christ's rules.

†. 1Cor 14:37 . . If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let
him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the
commandments of The Lord.

†. 1Ths 4:1-2 . .We beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord
Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please
God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments
we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

Below are a some of Christ's rules.

†. 1Tim 2:11-14 . . A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I
do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must
be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one
deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

†. 1Cor 14:34-35 . . Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is
not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under
obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask
their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Compliance with Christ's rules are the acid test of one's loyalty to God's son.

†. John 14:15 . . If you love me, you will comply with what I command.

†. John 14:21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one
who loves me.

†. John 14:23-24 . . If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching . . He who
does not love me will not obey my teaching.

†. John 15:14 . .You are my friends if you do as I wish.

Women who circumvent Christ's rules by means of sophistry and/or rationalizing
are no better than pagan heathens.

†. 1Sam 15:22-23 . . Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken
than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and
stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.

==============================================

These scriptures are always used to support the women being silent thing, but they are always used out of context. Paul was specifically addressing the churches of Corinth and Ephesus. In essence, you are reading someone elses mail and using it to form a doctrine

 

[notuptome]

Context? Jesus spoke plainly & I used all the verses for clarity.

As far as wolves looking for their own gain, I've never met any woman pastor, y'know, any of those little grannies we've been talking about making a fortune off of the church. If anything, they barely have anything to retire on. As far as being famous or self-made popular, they're not. They're servants. They're usually prayer warriors.

In case you've haven't noticed, the fruit doesn't match the accusation.

A little sensitive are we? I think your application is not consistent with the context of the scriptures presented. Nothing in Mark 10 furthers the cause of women in the pastorate.

That aside how does a woman become the husband of one wife?

As to the fruit I suggest that there is plenty of evidence that the pulpits across America are filled with men and women who are not called of God to pastor churches. It is why the church now has no influence on society but is itself influenced by society. No salt and no light and worthy only to be trodden underfoot.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stephen63]

A little sensitive are we? I think your application is not consistent with the context of the scriptures presented. Nothing in Mark 10 furthers the cause of women in the pastorate.

That aside how does a woman become the husband of one wife?

As to the fruit I suggest that there is plenty of evidence that the pulpits across America are filled with men and women who are not called of God to pastor churches. It is why the church now has no influence on society but is itself influenced by society. No salt and no light and worthy only to be trodden underfoot.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I agree with the influence part.... but that has nothing to do with women ministers in particular.

Sensitive...... naw..... enough has already been written on the topic to prove validation for women ministers. The readers have what they need.

 

[WebersHome]

These scriptures are always used to support the women being silent thing,
but they are always used out of context. Paul was specifically addressing the
churches of Corinth and Ephesus. In essence, you are reading someone
elses mail and using it to form a doctrine

That tiresome old argument has been in circulation for a long time; and it's
just as spurious today as it always was in the past. It's good sophistry; but
of course there is only one faith (Eph 4:5) not one faith for each church. And
besides; Paul's letters were passed around; e.g. Col 4:16.

The Holy Spirit's passion is unity in the body (Eph 4:3, Eph 4:13) Well;
there's no unity in the body when this church is going by one set of rules
while that church is going by another set of rules.

If we're going to edit portions of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians on the
basis of those portions not pertaining to all churches, then who's to decide
what to keep and what to discard?

And what about the letters Paul wrote to Timothy? Are we to edit those
letters too? And again I ask; who's to decide what to keep and what to
discard.

Well; you go right ahead and edit to your heart's content; see if I care; but
you are not my role model; I am not going to follow your lead the way Eve
followed the Serpent's because there's only one place that route can end.

============================================

 

[ELECT]

A number of those posting on this thread advocating discrimination against women have said that a woman can teach but not be a pastor.

Now which is it?

Since some are saying a woman's eternal destiny is at stake (as in, being an enemy of Christ), this could be an important issue to get the right answer for.

What is the difference between a pastor and a teacher ?

Are all teachers ? Are all pastors ?Are all preachers ?
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?