A woman as a Pastor? Does it make it right if there is a need for pastors?
- Thread starter Mary96
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J
Here is a sampling of the common male attitude toward women over the millennia. This is one of the reasons that I seldom ever quote the "Church Fathers." In order to think this way you have to have a wrong spirit.
"Whoever teaches his daughter the Torah
is like one who teaches her obscenity.
Rather should the words of the Torah
be burned than entrusted to a woman."
Ancient Rabbi
"It is a shame for a woman to let her
voice be heard among men."
Ancient Rabbi
"The woman is in all things inferior
to the man. Let her be accordingly
submissive."
Josephus - Historian
"All females, both animal and human, are inferior
to males. We should look upon the female as a
deformity in nature."
Aristotle - Philosopher
"Woman is defective and misbegotten. For
the active power in the male seed produces
a perfect male likeness. A female comes from a
defect in the male seed or from some indisposition
such as the south wind being too moist."
Thomas Aquinas - Church father
"God's sentence hangs over the female sex,
and His punishment weighs down upon you.
You are the devil's gateway. You first violated
the forbidden tree and broke God's law. You
shattered God's image in man, and because
you merited death, you had to die."
Tertullian - Church Father
"It brings man shame even to reflect on
woman's nature. By no means shall
women exhibit any part of their person
lest men become excited and look and fall."
Clement - Church Father
"It is part of her punishment and a part
from which even God's mercy will
not exempt her. Subjection to the will of her
husband is part of her curse."
Clement - Church Father
"Take women from their housewifery and they
are good for nothing."
Martin Luther
"Women have narrow shoulders and broad hips
to sit upon, so they ought to stay home,
keep the house, bear and raise children. The
woman differs from the man; she is weaker in
body, in honor, in intellect and in dignity."
Martin Luther
"If a woman take upon her any office which
God assigned to man, she shall not escape being
cursed. Women are weak, they are frail, they are
impatient and feeble and foolish. They are
inconstant. They are changeable, they are cruel.
They lack spirit and counsel. Woman in her
greatest perfection was made to serve and
only obey men."
John Knox
"One hundred women are not worth a single
testicle."
Confucius (551-479 BCE)
"The five worst infirmities that afflict
the female are indocility, discontent, slander,
jealousy, and silliness... Such is the stupidity
of woman's character, that it is incumbent
upon her, in every particular, to distrust
herself and to obey her husband."
The Confucian Marriage Manual
"A proper wife should be as obedient as a slave."
and "The female is a female by virtue of a certain
lack of qualities - a natural defectiveness."
Aristotle (384-322 BCE)
"In childhood a woman must be subject to her father;
in youth to her husband; when her husband is dead,
to her sons. A woman must never be free of subjugation."
The Hindu Code of Manu (c. 100 CE)
"Among all savage beasts, none is found
so harmful as woman."
St. John Chrysostom (345-407 CE)
"Men are superior to women."
The Koran (c. 650)
"Any woman who acts in such a way that she cannot
give birth to as many children as she is capable of,
makes herself guilty of that many murders."
St. Augustine (354-430 CE)
"Do you know that each of your women is an Eve?
The sentence of God - on this sex of yours - lives
in this age; the guilt must necessarily live, too. You
are the gate of Hell, you are the temptress of the
forbidden tree; you are the first deserter of the
divine law."
Tertullian in 22 CE
"Woman in her greatest perfection was made to
serve and obey man, not rule and command him."
John Knox (1505-1572)
"The souls of women are so small that some
believe they've none at all."
Samuel Butler (1612-1680)
"What a misfortune to be a woman! And yet,
the worst misfortune is not to understand
what a misfortune it is".
Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
"It seems to me that nearly every woman I know
wants a man who knows how to love with authority.
Women are simple souls who like simple things, and
one of the simplest is one of the simplest to give...
Our family Airedale will come clear across the yard
for one pat on the head. The average wife is like that.
She will come across town, across the house, across
to your point of view, and across almost anything to
give you her love if you offer her yours with some
honest approval."
Episcopal Bishop James Pike in a letter to his son (1968)
"Let us set our women folk on the road to goodness
by teaching them to display submissiveness." "Every
woman should be overwhelmed with shame at the
thought that she is a woman."
St. Clement of Alexandria in 96 CE
In the year 584 CE, in Lyons, France, forty-three
Catholic bishops and twenty men representing other
bishops, held a most peculiar debate: "Are Women
Human?" After many lengthy arguments, a vote was
taken. The results were: thirty-two, yes; thirty-one,
no. Women were declared human by one vote!
Council of Macon
"Blessed art thou, O Lord our God and King of the
Universe, that thou didst not create me a woman."
Daily prayer, still in use, of the orthodox Jewish male
"Woman should remain at home, sit still, keep house,
and bear and bring up children." and "If a woman grows
weary and, at last, dies from child bearing, it matters not.
Let her die from bearing; she is there to do it."
Martin Luther (1483-1546)
With this kind of really negative chauvinistic attitude among the male population over the Millennia Is it really difficult to believe that the historical record of women's participation in the leadership of the Church has mostly been expunged by the "Selective memory," of the male scribes of that day. Jesus and Paul lived in a culture of male domination. This practice followed into the Church after Pentecost although some women were leaders in the synagogues in that day. A lot of Christian women were poor, but some were also wealthy: like Lydia. Women were managing their own households, which often had a lot going on like maintenance of property, running a business, managing a family along with its many responsibilities and supervision of slaves in some cases. The early Church was basically supported by women as they simply extended their homes in order to host the Church, which met in homes during the first and second centuries.
During the third and forth centuries as the church slowly became institutionalized, the women were displaced and the leadership became masculine dominated. This is also the crowd who eradicated almost all traces of women in leadership from the written records. There were women in leadership before the purge took place. The best example extant is Junia mentioned by St. Paul as an Apostle. Translators “Corrected” the female name to that of Junias - the male form. There is no historical male name “Junias.“ The evidence of early Female leadership remains mostly in the fraises, mosaics, and grave markings in places like the catacombs.
Another example: There is a mosaic in a Basilica that depicts four women, Mary the mother of Jesus, Prudentiana, Praxedis, and a forth woman whose name was Theodora Episcopa - Bishop Theodora. Episcopus is the male form and Episcopa is the female. It is also noteworthy that the ending letter of the word Episcopa in the mosaic was defaced - I wonder why? As a side note, the image of Theodora had a square halo instead of a round one like the other three women, which symbolically indicated that she was still alive when the mosaic was made.
"Whoever teaches his daughter the Torah
is like one who teaches her obscenity.
Rather should the words of the Torah
be burned than entrusted to a woman."
Ancient Rabbi
"It is a shame for a woman to let her
voice be heard among men."
Ancient Rabbi
"The woman is in all things inferior
to the man. Let her be accordingly
submissive."
Josephus - Historian
"All females, both animal and human, are inferior
to males. We should look upon the female as a
deformity in nature."
Aristotle - Philosopher
"Woman is defective and misbegotten. For
the active power in the male seed produces
a perfect male likeness. A female comes from a
defect in the male seed or from some indisposition
such as the south wind being too moist."
Thomas Aquinas - Church father
"God's sentence hangs over the female sex,
and His punishment weighs down upon you.
You are the devil's gateway. You first violated
the forbidden tree and broke God's law. You
shattered God's image in man, and because
you merited death, you had to die."
Tertullian - Church Father
"It brings man shame even to reflect on
woman's nature. By no means shall
women exhibit any part of their person
lest men become excited and look and fall."
Clement - Church Father
"It is part of her punishment and a part
from which even God's mercy will
not exempt her. Subjection to the will of her
husband is part of her curse."
Clement - Church Father
"Take women from their housewifery and they
are good for nothing."
Martin Luther
"Women have narrow shoulders and broad hips
to sit upon, so they ought to stay home,
keep the house, bear and raise children. The
woman differs from the man; she is weaker in
body, in honor, in intellect and in dignity."
Martin Luther
"If a woman take upon her any office which
God assigned to man, she shall not escape being
cursed. Women are weak, they are frail, they are
impatient and feeble and foolish. They are
inconstant. They are changeable, they are cruel.
They lack spirit and counsel. Woman in her
greatest perfection was made to serve and
only obey men."
John Knox
"One hundred women are not worth a single
testicle."
Confucius (551-479 BCE)
"The five worst infirmities that afflict
the female are indocility, discontent, slander,
jealousy, and silliness... Such is the stupidity
of woman's character, that it is incumbent
upon her, in every particular, to distrust
herself and to obey her husband."
The Confucian Marriage Manual
"A proper wife should be as obedient as a slave."
and "The female is a female by virtue of a certain
lack of qualities - a natural defectiveness."
Aristotle (384-322 BCE)
"In childhood a woman must be subject to her father;
in youth to her husband; when her husband is dead,
to her sons. A woman must never be free of subjugation."
The Hindu Code of Manu (c. 100 CE)
"Among all savage beasts, none is found
so harmful as woman."
St. John Chrysostom (345-407 CE)
"Men are superior to women."
The Koran (c. 650)
"Any woman who acts in such a way that she cannot
give birth to as many children as she is capable of,
makes herself guilty of that many murders."
St. Augustine (354-430 CE)
"Do you know that each of your women is an Eve?
The sentence of God - on this sex of yours - lives
in this age; the guilt must necessarily live, too. You
are the gate of Hell, you are the temptress of the
forbidden tree; you are the first deserter of the
divine law."
Tertullian in 22 CE
"Woman in her greatest perfection was made to
serve and obey man, not rule and command him."
John Knox (1505-1572)
"The souls of women are so small that some
believe they've none at all."
Samuel Butler (1612-1680)
"What a misfortune to be a woman! And yet,
the worst misfortune is not to understand
what a misfortune it is".
Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
"It seems to me that nearly every woman I know
wants a man who knows how to love with authority.
Women are simple souls who like simple things, and
one of the simplest is one of the simplest to give...
Our family Airedale will come clear across the yard
for one pat on the head. The average wife is like that.
She will come across town, across the house, across
to your point of view, and across almost anything to
give you her love if you offer her yours with some
honest approval."
Episcopal Bishop James Pike in a letter to his son (1968)
"Let us set our women folk on the road to goodness
by teaching them to display submissiveness." "Every
woman should be overwhelmed with shame at the
thought that she is a woman."
St. Clement of Alexandria in 96 CE
In the year 584 CE, in Lyons, France, forty-three
Catholic bishops and twenty men representing other
bishops, held a most peculiar debate: "Are Women
Human?" After many lengthy arguments, a vote was
taken. The results were: thirty-two, yes; thirty-one,
no. Women were declared human by one vote!
Council of Macon
"Blessed art thou, O Lord our God and King of the
Universe, that thou didst not create me a woman."
Daily prayer, still in use, of the orthodox Jewish male
"Woman should remain at home, sit still, keep house,
and bear and bring up children." and "If a woman grows
weary and, at last, dies from child bearing, it matters not.
Let her die from bearing; she is there to do it."
Martin Luther (1483-1546)
With this kind of really negative chauvinistic attitude among the male population over the Millennia Is it really difficult to believe that the historical record of women's participation in the leadership of the Church has mostly been expunged by the "Selective memory," of the male scribes of that day. Jesus and Paul lived in a culture of male domination. This practice followed into the Church after Pentecost although some women were leaders in the synagogues in that day. A lot of Christian women were poor, but some were also wealthy: like Lydia. Women were managing their own households, which often had a lot going on like maintenance of property, running a business, managing a family along with its many responsibilities and supervision of slaves in some cases. The early Church was basically supported by women as they simply extended their homes in order to host the Church, which met in homes during the first and second centuries.
During the third and forth centuries as the church slowly became institutionalized, the women were displaced and the leadership became masculine dominated. This is also the crowd who eradicated almost all traces of women in leadership from the written records. There were women in leadership before the purge took place. The best example extant is Junia mentioned by St. Paul as an Apostle. Translators “Corrected” the female name to that of Junias - the male form. There is no historical male name “Junias.“ The evidence of early Female leadership remains mostly in the fraises, mosaics, and grave markings in places like the catacombs.
Another example: There is a mosaic in a Basilica that depicts four women, Mary the mother of Jesus, Prudentiana, Praxedis, and a forth woman whose name was Theodora Episcopa - Bishop Theodora. Episcopus is the male form and Episcopa is the female. It is also noteworthy that the ending letter of the word Episcopa in the mosaic was defaced - I wonder why? As a side note, the image of Theodora had a square halo instead of a round one like the other three women, which symbolically indicated that she was still alive when the mosaic was made.
K
Well just when I thought nothing else could be said on the subject,it is blown wide open.Thank you very much Jasher for posting this.Your point is hard to argue.And women have seen this down through the years.They have been abused in the name of the Lord.What a pity.I would like to see what the response to this post will be.It will be interesting.I made the same type of point with church fathers about antisemitism. It wasn't well accepted to say the least.You made a great point in posting this.
Jasher, Most of those quotes are rather extreme, and more extreme than the Bible. God made male and female in His image and created woman before the fall, so females should not be regarded as deformed men.
If Tertullian let men have it for Adam's sin like he did with women, then his quotes may not be so bad in context. I don't know the context. I notice many of your quotes don't have a real source. 'Church father' is not really citing a source.
If I combed through, I might find a quote or two I agree with. Aristotle said a wife should be as obedient as a slave. It reminds me of I Peter 2-3.
In general, though, the Bible isn't as harsh as these quotes. And so there is no reason these harsh quotes should lead believers to depart from Biblical teaching on the matter.
And as I have pointed out, the verse about Anronius and Junia is ambiguous as to whether they were non-apostles the apostles considered to be notable or whether they were notable apostles. You'd have to have some actual proof of female leadership in the earliest centuries of the church. Women being on a mosaic in a basilica in the time of Theodora is not proof of anything related to this thread.
If Tertullian let men have it for Adam's sin like he did with women, then his quotes may not be so bad in context. I don't know the context. I notice many of your quotes don't have a real source. 'Church father' is not really citing a source.
If I combed through, I might find a quote or two I agree with. Aristotle said a wife should be as obedient as a slave. It reminds me of I Peter 2-3.
In general, though, the Bible isn't as harsh as these quotes. And so there is no reason these harsh quotes should lead believers to depart from Biblical teaching on the matter.
And as I have pointed out, the verse about Anronius and Junia is ambiguous as to whether they were non-apostles the apostles considered to be notable or whether they were notable apostles. You'd have to have some actual proof of female leadership in the earliest centuries of the church. Women being on a mosaic in a basilica in the time of Theodora is not proof of anything related to this thread.
V
Hey, Jack, you here to participate, or stir stuff? I asked you a question over two hours ago, gave you a post buried deep in the history of this thread to review, and you haven't said squat about it. But you sure have found the time to go after Marc several times since.
So which is it, Jack? Stuff stirrer, or genuine participant?
So which is it, Jack? Stuff stirrer, or genuine participant?
How did I distort what you said, exactly?
I quoted exactly what you said, which is:
"From the old testament to the new. It is not, and never has been, acceptable in God's eyes for women to lead - either from the pulpit nor the governors house."
Res ipsa loquitor.
What you said speaks for itself.
Incidentally, what verses, exactly, are you using to say a woman can't lead from the governor's house?
I quoted exactly what you said, which is:
"From the old testament to the new. It is not, and never has been, acceptable in God's eyes for women to lead - either from the pulpit nor the governors house."
Res ipsa loquitor.
What you said speaks for itself.
Incidentally, what verses, exactly, are you using to say a woman can't lead from the governor's house?
I didn't know I had a deadline.
MarcR received my priority because he keeps using my name in posts, directing posts at me, and accusing me of things like willful illiteracy.
So let's talk about your post of which you speak.
Now, as I understand it (please bear with me since apparently I am willfully illiterate since MarcR said so), you said that women can not be senior pastors.
But they can be associate or assistant pastors?
Is that correct?
You also said in your post:
"There was not a female pastor in any first-century New Testament church."
Are you absolutely sure about that?
MarcR received my priority because he keeps using my name in posts, directing posts at me, and accusing me of things like willful illiteracy.
So let's talk about your post of which you speak.
Now, as I understand it (please bear with me since apparently I am willfully illiterate since MarcR said so), you said that women can not be senior pastors.
But they can be associate or assistant pastors?
Is that correct?
You also said in your post:
"There was not a female pastor in any first-century New Testament church."
Are you absolutely sure about that?
Jack,
Phil stated his interpretation of the cited Scripture.
If you compare his with mine you will find that he goes somewhat further than I do; but that is his interpretation.
There is no more reason to question his sincerity or integrity, than that of those who agree with you.
By willful illiteracy I was referring to your habit of intentionally misstating other people's position; NOT your reading ability.
Do you deny that you do that?
Phil stated his interpretation of the cited Scripture.
If you compare his with mine you will find that he goes somewhat further than I do; but that is his interpretation.
There is no more reason to question his sincerity or integrity, than that of those who agree with you.
By willful illiteracy I was referring to your habit of intentionally misstating other people's position; NOT your reading ability.
Do you deny that you do that?
Last edited:
phil112 goes "somewhat" further than you do?
phil112 said:
"From the old testament to the new. It is not, and never has been, acceptable in God's eyes for women to lead - either from the pulpit nor the governors house."
Is your interpretation of that statement that phil112 is saying that a woman can not serve in political office, according to God?
Illiteracy means the inability to read or write.
I did not intentionally misstate anybody's position.
I'm trying to figure out everybody's position, like you wanted.
We have phil112's position clear, right?
phil112 said:
"From the old testament to the new. It is not, and never has been, acceptable in God's eyes for women to lead - either from the pulpit nor the governors house."
Is your interpretation of that statement that phil112 is saying that a woman can not serve in political office, according to God?
Illiteracy means the inability to read or write.
I did not intentionally misstate anybody's position.
I'm trying to figure out everybody's position, like you wanted.
We have phil112's position clear, right?
You know, that sounds like what Bruce Jenner said to the Kardashian women.
And now Bruce is going to have SRR (Sexual Reassignment Surgery).
Hey MarcR, are you going to accept this as WebersHome clearly stating his position?
I mean, it is one sentence.
As opposed to some of his posts that are several thousand words long.
And now Bruce is going to have SRR (Sexual Reassignment Surgery).
Hey MarcR, are you going to accept this as WebersHome clearly stating his position?
I mean, it is one sentence.
As opposed to some of his posts that are several thousand words long.