A World Of Christless Christians

[prodigal]

John 17:3King James Version (KJV)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

[h=1]Luke 17:20-21King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]20 [/SUP]And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[The_highwayman]

The term Christian is first found in Acts 11.26 and if you study it out, you will find it was a derogatory term used by the Greeks to label followers of Jesus Christ...in essence they would laugh and call followers/disciples/Apostle's Christians or "little christs."

I prefer the term Son or Daughter of God, only because some that call themselves Christian or Christians are far from it and the term is widely abused today.

 

[Blain]

Unless I am misunderstanding what the OP is saying unless we live forever meaning never tasting death we are not saved?

 

[WebersHome]

-

Unless I am misunderstanding what the OP is saying unless we live forever
meaning never tasting death we are not saved?

Eternal life is easily confused with immortality. The two are not one and the
same. Immortality defines the characteristics of a supernatural body
impervious to death and putrefaction; and seeing as how believers die every
day around clock then it's obvious that they don't have immortality yet; and
according to Rom 8:23-25 and 1Cor 15:35-58 believers won't have
immortality till some time in the future. But according to John 3:36, John
6:47, John 5:24, and 1John 5:13 they have eternal life now.

Q: If eternal life has no relation to longevity: then what is it?

A: Humans are the kind of people they are because they have human
nature. God is the kind of person He is because He has divine nature. In
point to fact: God has the divine nature because there are no other true
divinities but Himself. (John 17:3)

It's doesn't take a Th.D to appreciate just how much easier it would be for a
human to relate to God if humans had His nature instead of their nature.
And that, by the way, is the primary reason why Jesus Christ distributes
eternal life to the sheep that his Father gives him.

†. John 17:2-3 . .You have given Your son authority over all flesh, that he
should give eternal life to as many as You have given him. And this is
eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ
whom You have sent.

Christ's statement is nothing short of blasphemy to the mind of a Torah
trained Jew because what Jesus is saying is that God has given His son the
power to endow certain select individuals with the heart and soul of a god; in
point of fact: the God. Peter saw it that way too.

†. 2Pet 1:3-4 . . His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to
life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His
own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious
and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become
partakers of the divine nature.

The divine nature is a non physical kind of life, viz: it's a spirit kind of life;
which is how it's possible for people to have eternal life while mortal. In
other words: eternal life isn't meant to keep people from dying. For
example; Jesus Christ had eternal life (John 5:26, Col 2:9, 1John 1:1-2) but
though he's immortal now (Rom 6:9) he wasn't immortal when he was here:
the cross proves that much.

=======================================

 

[VCO]

Exactly, and why one cannot inherit eternal salvation until after they die...

I misread your post. If you remove the word until , then you will have stated it correctly.

Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses.
You are saved by grace!

Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not from works, so that no one can boast.

Revelation 21:24 (NKJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor
into it.

Hebrews 10:39 (NIV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

Ephesians 2:5 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ
—by grace you have been saved—

1 Corinthians 1:18 (ASV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now brothers, I want to clarify for you the gospel I proclaimed to you; you received it and have taken your stand on it.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] You are also saved by it, if you hold to the message I proclaimed to you—unless you believed for no purpose.
Acts 15:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] On the contrary, we believe we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus in the same way they are.”

Luke 13:23 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,

Luke 19:9-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] “Today salvation has come to this house,” Jesus told him, “because he too is a son of Abraham.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save the lost.”

 

[Jabberjaw]

Exactly, and why one cannot inherit eternal salvation until after they die...

I misread your post. If you remove the word until , then you will have stated it correctly.

Our fleshly, mortal bodies cannot inherit the immortal kingdom.

 

[VCO]

Our fleshly, mortal bodies cannot inherit the immortal kingdom.

But our human spirits CAN.

1 Corinthians 15:54 (HCSB)
[SUP]54 [/SUP] When this corruptible is clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal is clothed with immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: Death has been swallowed up in victory.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So, we are always confident and know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For we walk by faith, not by sight,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and we are confident and satisfied to be out of the body and at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:21-26 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For me, living is Christ and dying is gain.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now if I live on in the flesh, this means fruitful work for me; and I don’t know which one I should choose.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] I am pressured by both. I have the desire to depart and be with Christ—which is far better—
[SUP]24 [/SUP] but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Since I am persuaded of this, I know that I will remain and continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith,
[SUP]26 [/SUP] so that, because of me, your confidence may grow in Christ Jesus when I come to you again.

John 6:47 (ISV)
[SUP]47 [/SUP] Truly, truly I tell you, the one who believes {The Jewish definition of believes has to include acting on what you claim to believe. In other words if you "claim to believe Jesus is LORD, you have to have surrendered to HIS LORDSHIP, which means submitted to HIM AS MASTER, or it is LESS than what the Bible means by "believes".} in me has eternal life. {In their human spirit.}

The LIFE of the human spirit is separate from the life of body. When our bodies die, our human spirits continue living. Those of unbelievers find themselves existing in the eternal TORMENT of Hades, followed by Hell on Judgement Day; while those of us who are genuine Christians find our eternally alive human spirits went instantly to HEAVEN to be with the LORD.

Revelation 6:9-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] They cried out with a loud voice: “Lord, the One who is holy and true, how long until You judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?”
[SUP]11 [/SUP] So a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer until ⌊the number⌋ would be completed ⌊of⌋ their fellow slaves and their brothers, who were going to be killed just as they had been.

 

[RickyZ]

-
Webster's defines a Christian as: one who professes belief in the teachings
of Jesus Christ

According to Webster's, it isn't necessary to actually believe in the teachings
of Jesus Christ in order to qualify as a Christian. One need only profess belief
in his teachings. And one need not even know his teachings. All that one has
to do is give his teachings a vote of confidence; and they can have a
Christian tag with their name on it.

=========================================

As exampled by this exchange: "Lord did we not cast out demons in Your Name?" and Jesus' reply, 'scuse me who are you?'

 

[RickyZ]

BTW nice tangent on the OSAS theme.

 

[WebersHome]

-
It's surprising the number of Christians I encounter who frown upon using
Webster's to define English words; but I take my cue from Paul who said:

†. 1Cor 14:18-21 . . I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of
you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to
instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. Brothers, stop thinking
like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.

In my judicious estimation: seeing as how this is an English-speaking forum,
then it only makes sense to refer to a recognized authority on the English
language for our definitions so that we can communicate intelligently and
effectively or otherwise we risk repeating the Tower of Babel; and you can
see what that got them: confusion, disharmony, and scattering.

Point being: too many people have their own ideas about what defines a
Christian. Well; according to Paul, that kind of thinking is not only immature;
but it's a barrier to communication.

========================================

 

[Jeff_56]

perhaps understanding is lacking for another reason. lack of truth, lack of love for the living truth. lack of seeking yahweh the creator for truth. lack of trusting yahshua. and so on.
simultaneously living immersed in sin; or simultaneously living with one unrepentant sin (whether a sin that leads to death, or a sin that doesn't lead to death; by yahweh's definition);
of simultaneously trusting the liar or the father of lies, or a man, or flesh, or a scholar, or one's own self.

point being, the torah teachers / scholars/ lawyers/ educated ones to whom yahshua spoke
knew the language he was speaking in. they were raised learning it very well.

and they still didn't have a clue about what he was talking about. EVEN HIS OWN DISCIPLES(at first).

they did not learn living abiding truth about salvation or anything about salvation

from study. nor from human sources (teachers or preachers or pastors or especially not from priests),

nor from their own reflection, nor from their own wisdom or knowledge or any other such thing.

but like simon bar jonah those who learn the living abiding truth from yahweh learn from yahweh as he

is pleased to reveal to them everything about salvation, as he chooses, through yahshua hamashiach(jesus christ, savior messiah king and god).

for recent examples, well, let's wait on that one. there are many, but what would help here anyone at all?
(perhaps the thread recently started by someone else about blindness?) perhaps. yahweh willing.

 

[Jeff_56]

Exactly, and why one cannot inherit eternal salvation until after they die...

that doesn't make senseeven in english... when my earthly boiling father died some 20 years ago, I inherited $6000 with my step-mom and neither one of us had to die to receive it.

 

[Jabberjaw]

that doesn't make senseeven in english... when my earthly boiling father died some 20 years ago, I inherited $6000 with my step-mom and neither one of us had to die to receive it.

If he put a condition upon you getting your inheritance, then it is possible that you would not get your $6000, and so this has nothing to do with the promise of eternal life, your example is not even close to applicable to the promise of eternal salvation, and when you can get it...

Our Lord, whether you believe it or not, put a condition on your eternal salvation, and the condition must be met "until death" or you may not receive your promise...

Matthew 24:13 (KJV)
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

we must keep on trying "unto the end" <-- meaning until you die. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the inverse of this statement which would mean "he that doth not endure unto the end, the same shall not be saved"

There is your condition, will one stumble along the way? yes, but :

1 John 1:7 (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Because of our continual slip and fall accidents (the reason we could not live by the law and needed a savior) he provided a way for us to get back up, and "endure unto the end" :

1 John 1:9 (KJV)
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[WebersHome]

-
Squabbling over eternal salvation is pointless when you don't possess
eternal life because according to God's testimony, as a credible expert
witness in all matters pertaining to His son; people without eternal life are
quite christless.

†. 1John 5:11-12 . . This is what God has testified: He has given us eternal
life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has this life; and
whosoever does not have this life, does not have His son.

Christians who don't have His son, are excluded from the ranks of Jesus
Christ's sheep.

†. Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.

FYI: People who blow off God's testimony are insinuating that He's a person
of questionable integrity who can't be trusted to tell the truth.

†. 1 John 5:10 . . Anyone who does not believe God has made Him out to be
a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about His
son.

========================================

 

[VCO]

Lk 18:30; 1 Jn 2:25; Tts 1:2 are verses that show eternal life is not something one possesses in this life.

The eternal life of the human body most certainly does not happen until the resurrection, or we are Called Out to meet HIM in the Air to go to the Wedding of the Lamb.

The eternal life of the human spirit, most certainly begins the moment of conversion when the Holy Spirit enters our hearts, pours the LOVE of GOD into our hearts, births our human spirit into eternal life, and we receive Jesus Christ as LORD, which means MASTER.

John 1:12-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3:6-7 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Romans 5:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now hope does not disappoint,
because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts
by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in Him,

Romans 10:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess (not just profess) with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and
that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not of works, lest anyone should boast.

John 3:36 (HCSB)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] The one who believes in the Son has eternal life,
but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life;
instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So, we are always confident and know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For we walk by faith, not by sight,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and we are confident and satisfied to be out of the body and at home with the Lord.

Revelation 6:9-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] They cried out with a loud voice: “Lord, the One who is holy and true, how long until You judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?”
[SUP]11 [/SUP] So a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer until ⌊the number⌋ would be completed ⌊of⌋ their fellow slaves and their brothers, who were going to be killed just as they had been.


SO TELL ME: "Which part of the human being who is a genuine Believer, continues to function and goes instantly to heaven the moment our mortal body dies?

ANSWER: "The human spirit which was birthed into eternal life, the moment we genuinely Believed and Received Jesus Christ as LORD, meaning MASTER."

 

[VCO]

Yeah, ok, sigh............kinda splitting hairs with that definition........mayhaps you should research the definition of


"professes?"

NO, one needs to read and believe Romans 10:9.

Romans 10:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess {not just profess} with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

It is NOT a confession unless it is something that is absolutely true about yourself. HENCE if one has NOT already received Jesus in their hearts as LORD, which means MASTER; it is only a profession and NOT a confession.

Matthew 7:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

☝t<><

By the way, I was in the Air Force from Dec. 68 - Dec. 72; and I really enjoyed that time in the Air Force. I was at Samsun, Turkey, Kadena AFB, Okinawa, and Ft. George G. Meade, MD.