Acts 15 proves that gentiles have never been under the law of Moses

[Least]

have went over and over Acts 15, and from what i see it disclaims the title of the thread.

Especially the reason that is going to be addressed next as to why those two specific laws were given in that chapter, (Who lead this?)

The verses answer this all by themselves.

It will be interesting to see how that will be addressed, I'm guessing it will have something to do with doubt...but that's just a guess for now...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

.
Acts 15:21

For Moses has those who proclaim him in every city from ancient generations, because he is read aloud in the synagogues on every Sabbath. Acts 15:21​

Initially, when Paul would enter a new city, he would first visit the synagogue to share the gospel with Jews. As gentile converts were added to the church, they were admitted to the synagogues as proselytes of the gate, or half proselytes. Synagogues then were not like churches are now, where anyone is welcome. Before gentiles could worship in synagogues, they had to meet certain requirements that at a minimum included sabbath observance and public adherence to the Noahide laws.

This is why James directed gentiles to observe the Noahide laws. Otherwise they would not have been admitted to the synagogues. The situation then was not like it is today where every mother's son has a bible. Back then the only scriptures available were in the synagogues, so gentiles were very dependent on the good graces of their Jewish hosts and had to conform to their expectations.

There was another category of proselyte called the proselytes of righteousness that required a full conversion to Judaism by becoming circumcised and following the law of Moses. This is what the pharisees were demanding of gentile believers. But the Jerusalem council said no, and ruled that behavior consistent with proselytes of the gate was sufficient. And this is also what Paul so strongly warned against, as doing so would cut that person off from the grace of Christ.

 

[Least]

I don't know a lot about the Noahide laws other than they are based on the Talmud and are extra biblical. (Which rules that doctrine out for me.)

One of the things that I did find in looking for information is that the Noahide laws state:

Under the Talmud's counterfeit Noahide Laws, the worship of Jesus is forbidden under penalty of death, since such worship of Christ is condemned by Judaism as idolatry. Along with a reference from an encyclopedia that I couldn't find on Google.

(Enziklopediya Talmudit, note 1, pp. 351-352)

I'm not even sure when the term, "Noahide," came along, as it is not contained in the bible at all...

Going to have to keep researching that one...

I can't imagine that Paul would ever compromise the truth by sending new Gentile believers into a place where they would be threatened with death, or where he thought they would find leaven. Paul taught no compromise, and he led by example.

From what I'm finding right now, the rules behind Noahide laws actually change biblical Torah, Gen-Duet. Since the principles are not biblical.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't know a lot about the Noahide laws other than they are based on the Talmud and are extra biblical. (Which rules that doctrine out for me.)

One of the things that I did find in looking for information is that the Noahide laws state:

Under the Talmud's counterfeit Noahide Laws, the worship of Jesus is forbidden under penalty of death, since such worship of Christ is condemned by Judaism as idolatry. Along with a reference from an encyclopedia that I couldn't find on Google.

(Enziklopediya Talmudit, note 1, pp. 351-352)

I'm not even sure when the term, "Noahide," came along, as it is not contained in the bible at all...

Going to have to keep researching that one...

I can't imagine that Paul would ever compromise the truth by sending new Gentile believers into a place where they would be threatened with death, or where he thought they would find leaven. Paul taught no compromise, and he led by example.

From what I'm finding right now, the rules behind Noahide laws actually change biblical Torah, Gen-Duet. Since the principles are not biblical.

For a while, both Jewish and gentile believers were accepted in the synagogues. That changed later.

There's nothing biblical about the Noahide laws. But still, if the believing gentiles wanted to worship in the synagogues, they had to follow the rules.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

.
Acts 15:22-27

​Then it seemed best to the apostles and the elders, together with the whole church, to send men chosen from among them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas who was called Barsabbas and Silas, men who were leaders among the brothers— writing this letter to be delivered by them: ​

The apostles and the elders, brothers. To the brothers who are from among the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia. Greetings! Because we have heard that some have gone out from among us—to whom we gave no orders—and have thrown you into confusion by words upsetting your minds, it seemed best to us, having reached a unanimous decision, and having chosen men, to send them to you together with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives on behalf of the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, and they will report the same things by word of mouth. Acts 15:22-27​

Some things to notice:

• The men who tried to compel believing gentiles to become proselytes of righteousness (circumcision, keeping the law) were from Jerusalem, and probably pharisees
• These men went of their own will, and were not sent by the holy spirit or church leadership
• The fruit of their doctrine was confusion and an upset minds
• The church elder's directive for believing gentiles to conduct themselves as proselytes of the gate was a unanimous decision

 

[ukok102nak]

:smoke: The seven laws of Noah? :happy:
Please correct as if we are wrong

:ty:

PS: peter said something to Paul that even himself cannot deny it

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

.
Acts 15:28-29

For it seemed best to the Holy Spirit and to us to place on you no greater burden except these necessary things: that you abstain from food sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these things you will do well. Farewell. Acts 15:28-29​

Notice that the letter didn't say if you keep yourselves from these things, you will please GOD, or you will do righteously, but you will do well. That's because it dealt with a practical matter, not a spiritual one.

 

[Least]

.
Acts 15:28-29

For it seemed best to the Holy Spirit and to us to place on you no greater burden except these necessary things: that you abstain from food sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these things you will do well. Farewell. Acts 15:28-29​

Notice that the letter didn't say if you keep yourselves from these things, you will please GOD, or you will do righteously, but you will do well. That's because it dealt with a practical matter, not a spiritual one.

That does answer the question of whom they were abiding in when these two laws were given.

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

They were led by God, they were abiding in HIM.

There are a whole lot of other NT verses that substantiate this. I'm posting a few...

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Matthew 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Confirmed even before Acts 15..

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Romans 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Corinthians 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Galatians actually divides this out...between flesh and spirit...Which is the point that so many have been trying to make.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

The same chapter actually gives you a picture of both sides...flesh..or spirit.

And again, Revelations ch. 2 the entire chapter goes into this.

I didn't even go into the idol portion of the two laws in Acts 15...There are verses that uphold both.

 

[gotime]

Some really good discussion in these posts. Thought provoking to say the least.

What would the law of Moses be? This may seem like a dumb question but it can be rather revealing to study the use of that term. Just a thought.

But these posts are a good read.

 

[Shoshanah]

Some really good discussion in these posts. Thought provoking to say the least.

What would the law of Moses be? This may seem like a dumb question but it can be rather revealing to study the use of that term. Just a thought.

But these posts are a good read.

There is no phrase for different laws such as the law of God, Gods laws. Moses commandments , Gods commandments There are no distinctions, they are all Moses law.

Which Law

 

[gotime]

There is no phrase for different laws such as the law of God, Gods laws. Moses commandments , Gods commandments There are no distinctions, they are all Moses law.

Which Law

I think a closer study would reveal something different to what you have said here. You are partially right.

 

[gotime]

Anyhow a question:

Exo 19:6 and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

In light of this text and in light of the role of a priest what did Israel exist for?

 

[Least]

Anyhow a question:

Exo 19:6 and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

In light of this text and in light of the role of a priest what did Israel exist for?

They were supposed to shine a light unto the world...

Same as us.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
1 Peter 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[gotime]

They were supposed to shine a light unto the world...

Same as us.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
1 Peter 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Amen, they were to attract the people to the one true God as you have said, and as it is written:

Deu 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and ordinances, even as Jehovah my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the midst of the land whither ye go in to possess it.
Deu 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, that shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
Deu 4:7 For what great nation is there, that hath a god so nigh unto them, as Jehovah our God is whensoever we call upon him?
Deu 4:8 And what great nation is there, that hath statutes and ordinances so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There is no phrase for different laws such as the law of God, Gods laws. Moses commandments , Gods commandments There are no distinctions, they are all Moses law.

Which Law

I like that website. Have gotten some good stuff from them before.

 

[Least]

Amen, they were to attract the people to the one true God as you have said, and as it is written:

Deu 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and ordinances, even as Jehovah my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the midst of the land whither ye go in to possess it.
Deu 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, that shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
Deu 4:7 For what great nation is there, that hath a god so nigh unto them, as Jehovah our God is whensoever we call upon him?
Deu 4:8 And what great nation is there, that hath statutes and ordinances so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

These verses are so wonderful too. They hold a lot of meaning.

Isaiah 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Isaiah 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

God's word never contradicts itself. That's why it's so much better than anybody's opinion, including my own.

 

[gotime]

There is no phrase for different laws such as the law of God, Gods laws. Moses commandments , Gods commandments There are no distinctions, they are all Moses law.

Which Law

Maybe I should be a little more clear on what I am saying. You are right of course that the law came through Moses and thus is often refereed to as the law of Moses. which is pretty much all the first five books.

However context matters very much for when the term "low of Moses" is used does it always mean the same thing?

No and here is proof, lets say that every time that this term was used we assumed it meant all of it.

That would then mean that Paul was against loving your neighbor and loving God the two great commandments were part of the "Law of Moses"

Now I know you don't think that I am just using it as a very valid example of how "low of Moses" needs context to understand exactly what parts the writer is referring to when they speak.

For example Galatians makes it clear at least in part that the circumcision is one of the main points being referred to as the law. To assume all the law is being spoken of here is without base as the example before shows.

So what I am saying is if we examine the use of the "law of Moses" in the new testament we might find that contextually we often misuse it.

 

[gotime]

These verses are so wonderful too. They hold a lot of meaning.

Isaiah 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Isaiah 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

God's word never contradicts itself. That's why it's so much better than anybody's opinion, including my own.

amen one of my favs is:

Isa 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Isa 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.

 

[gotime]

A quick question, how was or could a Gentile be saved in the Old Testament?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

A quick question, how was or could a Gentile be saved in the Old Testament?

I think all of those who lived according to the law of GOD in their heart will be saved. Just my opinion, but that's what I think. GOD is a just GOD. And then there's people like Ruth who actually joined the nation of Israel.