Against Cessationism
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C
All of the apostles believed and professed what many today would refer to as the doctrine of 'imminence' which is the belief that Jesus could return at any time. Everything they taught, everything they did was in preparation for the Lord's return. Imminence is the central theme of all of the New Testament epistles regardless of the author.
C
I cleaned up my original post:
I think all of us would agree that the bible alone is the standard for christian living and doctrine. No where in the bible does it state clearly or extensively that gifts have ceased during the current 'dispensation' for lack of a better term.
Please understand, there are many themes that appear constantly throughout scripture. It is from these themes which we derive our doctrines. Themes such as Jesus as the Christ, salvation by faith alone and not works, imputed righteousness and the process of sanctification just to name a few. These themes can be proven because they appear time and time again in the scriptures.
Now, taking this into consideration, let's take another look at 1 Corinthians 13: 8-12 (NKJ):
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
There are two basic views held by Cessationists. I have even heard certain individuals on these boards repeat both views which makes no sense to me seeing as these views tend to conflict with one another however, for the sake of discussion, let's review both.
The first view is that the perfect mentioned in verse 10 is that the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased once the canon of scripture was completed. The problem with this view is that throughout the centuries Christian bishops and scholars have debated heavily as to which books should be included in the canon and which should not. The bible used traditionally by Catholics for over 1500 years contains several books that the the bible used by the Eastern Orthodox Church which has been around just as long if not longer than Catholicism if not longer. The Eastern Orthodox bible contains more books that your typical Protestant bible. There are many different translations of the Protestant bible which vary in interpretation, each possessing equal validity to the meaning of their interpretations. Because of everything that I have just listed, there is no way to discern whether or not that the bible you now hold in your hands is the complete canon of scripture.
The second view makes a bit more sense however, it is every bit as controversial and questionable as the first. That view hangs on the idea that the perfect mentioned in verse 10 is the kingdom / millennium. I tend to agree with this assessment however, the million dollar question is whether or not we are currently living in the millennium or is the millennium yet to come. I believe the key to unlocking this scripture's intended meaning rests in verse 12:
'For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.'
Notice that Paul uses the terms 'face to face' and 'as I also am known'. I find it hard to believe that Paul is referring to a place or a period time because both terms imply personal interaction of some sort. This leads me to believe that the perfect mentioned in verse 10 is not a a thing, a place or a time but a person.
Now let's go back to the original topic of this conversation. We can safely derive our doctrine according to scriptural themes found throughout the bible. We can safely discern the central themes of the bible given the number of times a subject is discussed in the bible and how these discussions compare to and agree with one another. Taking all of the writings of the New Testament into consideration, I have yet to find a single theme that does not revolve around the return of Jesus Christ. All of the apostles believed and professed what many today would refer to as the doctrine of 'imminence'. Imminence is the belief that Jesus could return at any time. Everything they taught, everything they did was in preparation for the Lord's return. I believe that we can safely assume that Imminence is the central theme of all of the New Testament epistles regardless of the author. Jesus himself refers to Imminence throughout his own teachings in the four gospels as well as the book of Acts. Just how or why can we justify interpreting 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 through any means other than Imminence? You can't.
To me, this controversy is settled. The gifts of the Holy Spirit will not cease until the physical return of Jesus Christ. Anything else is poor exegesis of scripture.
I think all of us would agree that the bible alone is the standard for christian living and doctrine. No where in the bible does it state clearly or extensively that gifts have ceased during the current 'dispensation' for lack of a better term.
Please understand, there are many themes that appear constantly throughout scripture. It is from these themes which we derive our doctrines. Themes such as Jesus as the Christ, salvation by faith alone and not works, imputed righteousness and the process of sanctification just to name a few. These themes can be proven because they appear time and time again in the scriptures.
Now, taking this into consideration, let's take another look at 1 Corinthians 13: 8-12 (NKJ):
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
There are two basic views held by Cessationists. I have even heard certain individuals on these boards repeat both views which makes no sense to me seeing as these views tend to conflict with one another however, for the sake of discussion, let's review both.
The first view is that the perfect mentioned in verse 10 is that the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased once the canon of scripture was completed. The problem with this view is that throughout the centuries Christian bishops and scholars have debated heavily as to which books should be included in the canon and which should not. The bible used traditionally by Catholics for over 1500 years contains several books that the the bible used by the Eastern Orthodox Church which has been around just as long if not longer than Catholicism if not longer. The Eastern Orthodox bible contains more books that your typical Protestant bible. There are many different translations of the Protestant bible which vary in interpretation, each possessing equal validity to the meaning of their interpretations. Because of everything that I have just listed, there is no way to discern whether or not that the bible you now hold in your hands is the complete canon of scripture.
The second view makes a bit more sense however, it is every bit as controversial and questionable as the first. That view hangs on the idea that the perfect mentioned in verse 10 is the kingdom / millennium. I tend to agree with this assessment however, the million dollar question is whether or not we are currently living in the millennium or is the millennium yet to come. I believe the key to unlocking this scripture's intended meaning rests in verse 12:
'For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.'
Notice that Paul uses the terms 'face to face' and 'as I also am known'. I find it hard to believe that Paul is referring to a place or a period time because both terms imply personal interaction of some sort. This leads me to believe that the perfect mentioned in verse 10 is not a a thing, a place or a time but a person.
Now let's go back to the original topic of this conversation. We can safely derive our doctrine according to scriptural themes found throughout the bible. We can safely discern the central themes of the bible given the number of times a subject is discussed in the bible and how these discussions compare to and agree with one another. Taking all of the writings of the New Testament into consideration, I have yet to find a single theme that does not revolve around the return of Jesus Christ. All of the apostles believed and professed what many today would refer to as the doctrine of 'imminence'. Imminence is the belief that Jesus could return at any time. Everything they taught, everything they did was in preparation for the Lord's return. I believe that we can safely assume that Imminence is the central theme of all of the New Testament epistles regardless of the author. Jesus himself refers to Imminence throughout his own teachings in the four gospels as well as the book of Acts. Just how or why can we justify interpreting 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 through any means other than Imminence? You can't.
To me, this controversy is settled. The gifts of the Holy Spirit will not cease until the physical return of Jesus Christ. Anything else is poor exegesis of scripture.
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nonsense.
the subject of Corinthians is NOT THE RETURN OF CHRIST.
the subject is the GIFTS and when they will cease.
the mirror is hyperbole, and is seen elsewhere and concerns LOOKING INTO GOD'S LAW.
not one single person alive today is manifesting the Ascension gifts given for the foundation of the church.
Pentecostalism is NEW.
and so is continuationism.
do a little greek study on PERFECT in Corinthians...it means MATURE, COMPLETE, FINISHED.
Paul didn't know what we know! he died before all the revelation had been given!
PARTIAL GIFTS...why on earth would a modern christian desire partial (childish things) when he can have the MATURE?
you've got 3 choices (and all are ridiculous):
1) the offices and gifts never ceased: where are the thousands of authorized apostles and their writings we should have?
why isn't our Bible 75 feet thick and growing?
2) they went into disuse due to some stupid reason (persecution, lazy faithless believers)
3) God is inexplicably, and without recording and prophesying it is RESTORING THE OFFICES AND GIFTS.
which do you claim?
the subject of Corinthians is NOT THE RETURN OF CHRIST.
the subject is the GIFTS and when they will cease.
the mirror is hyperbole, and is seen elsewhere and concerns LOOKING INTO GOD'S LAW.
not one single person alive today is manifesting the Ascension gifts given for the foundation of the church.
Pentecostalism is NEW.
and so is continuationism.
do a little greek study on PERFECT in Corinthians...it means MATURE, COMPLETE, FINISHED.
Paul didn't know what we know! he died before all the revelation had been given!
PARTIAL GIFTS...why on earth would a modern christian desire partial (childish things) when he can have the MATURE?
you've got 3 choices (and all are ridiculous):
1) the offices and gifts never ceased: where are the thousands of authorized apostles and their writings we should have?
why isn't our Bible 75 feet thick and growing?
2) they went into disuse due to some stupid reason (persecution, lazy faithless believers)
3) God is inexplicably, and without recording and prophesying it is RESTORING THE OFFICES AND GIFTS.
which do you claim?
um...no.
they did not.
paul particularly made that evident here: he warned against preachers of imminence:
2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
are we to be always vigilent, and prepared for Him AT ANY TIME since our lives are short?
yes.
will He return until the end of satan's little season?
NO
they did not.
paul particularly made that evident here: he warned against preachers of imminence:
2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
are we to be always vigilent, and prepared for Him AT ANY TIME since our lives are short?
yes.
will He return until the end of satan's little season?
NO
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You have it so wrong, but who is going to penetrate that hard skull of yours? When it is finally smashed it is going to hurt so bad and you will be left with nothing but the promises of God that you will have to accept and embrace by faith. That is going to happen as sure as you breath Canadian air because God is faithful. You have trashed dispensational truth for a while now and have criticized so many that know and have been nurtured in the truth of the apostles' doctrine. It is going to come back on you with a vengeance and break you down until you are nothing. I am not talking about personal sin and what you went through and were delivered from as a sinner. I am talking about the knowledge and doctrine that you have in your mind and heart and have used to judge and come against others, some of it justified but most of it not justified in relationship to the mystery of Christ and the church.
LINDA
THIS CRACKPOT ACCUSATION THAT CESSATIONISM MEANS I SAY GOD IS DEAD SHOWS THE EVIL IN YOUR HEART.
and your appalling ignorance.
if you can't find a more intelligent assessement of what cessationism is, it's just proof you have NO CLUE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.
-
you've likely never heard of spurgeon, but you do know the Word Faith heretic crowd and the Spiritual Warfare loonies.
LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR BELIEFS FOR AWHILE.
i have some questions:
how does God speak to you?
how often do you see Jesus?
is physical healing part of the Atonement?
did God lose control of creation to satan at the fall?
is the church's mandate to wage war with satan and demons?
what are tongues?
how often do you receive revelations from God?
THIS CRACKPOT ACCUSATION THAT CESSATIONISM MEANS I SAY GOD IS DEAD SHOWS THE EVIL IN YOUR HEART.
and your appalling ignorance.
if you can't find a more intelligent assessement of what cessationism is, it's just proof you have NO CLUE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.
-
you've likely never heard of spurgeon, but you do know the Word Faith heretic crowd and the Spiritual Warfare loonies.
LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR BELIEFS FOR AWHILE.
i have some questions:
how does God speak to you?
how often do you see Jesus?
is physical healing part of the Atonement?
did God lose control of creation to satan at the fall?
is the church's mandate to wage war with satan and demons?
what are tongues?
how often do you receive revelations from God?
calling down curses on me now Red?
why didn't you address what Paul said about the Coming of the Lord?
anyways, you can align yourself with Linda and whoever else hates me.
its still your problem.
i can't help it that you swallowed pretrib and the rest.
your choice.
the curses are very gracious though.
a little like my charismatic demon-buster.
why didn't you address what Paul said about the Coming of the Lord?
anyways, you can align yourself with Linda and whoever else hates me.
its still your problem.
i can't help it that you swallowed pretrib and the rest.
your choice.
the curses are very gracious though.
a little like my charismatic demon-buster.
C
I don't necessarily believe in a pretrib rapture either. I take the bible at it's word and do my best not to add to or take away from the scriptures allowing them to speak for themselves without interferance from the doctrines of men. However, it helps to understand Imminence from a historical perspective. Unfortunately, Imminence has been primarily used to support the idea of a pretib rapture. The only problem with this is that the doctrine of a pretribulational rapture was not widely taught or accepted until roughly 150 years ago with the printing of the Scoefield bible. However, the doctrine of imminence can be traced all the way back to Ante Nicene fathers as the Roman Empire began to tighten it's deadly grip on the early church.
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