Against Cessationism

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zone

zone

Senior Member
#41
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#41
Crossfire said:
BTW - You are using 2 Thess 2 entirely out of context. In no way, shape or form is Paul referring to Imminence (the imminent return of Jesus Christ) in this passage but rather false teachers claiming to be the Christ professing that the Messiah has come.
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HUH?
first of all, i posted that to Red to refute ANY MOMENT DOCTRINE, AKA in this case PRETRIB.

i did NOT quote it out of context, i quoted it to show, as Paul CLEARLY states Jesus will not Return until the eschaton, which is what paul is describing.

there's a list of things to take place before the 2nd advent.

so kindly correct your accusation, since its you who interrupted, and misunderstood. i wasn't using paul to affirm imminence, but to REFUTE IT.
thanks
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#42
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#42
Crossfire said:
You clearly do not understand the doctrine of imminence. Read verse 2-3 again. It could just as easily be used to refute Amilllennialism with the "day of the Lord" refering to the millennial kingdom when the Lord shall physically reign here on earth.
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uh.....huh?
oh....ok.....
you make The Day of the Lord the magical millennial kingdom if you want to, sir.
is that Mr. Apostle?

should we know your real name and see your epistles?
or do i have you confused with someone else.

you claim to hold an Acts office, do you not?

you clearly do not understand THE DAY OF THE LORD.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#43
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#43
Crossfire said:
All of the apostles believed and professed what many today would refer to as the doctrine of 'imminence' which is the belief that Jesus could return at any time. Everything they taught, everything they did was in preparation for the Lord's return. Imminence is the central theme of all of the New Testament epistles regardless of the author.
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you were saying?

zone said:
2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
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is this Apostle clearly teaching imminence?
 
Elizabeth619

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
#44
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
#44
jonathanbchristian said:
If it's not about 1 Corinthians 13, then what verses do you use to make up your false doctrine? I find it interesting that the completion of the Bible is not mentioned in the Bible as part of a prophecy. And that the foundation of the Church is not mentioned with any prophecy. Yet you have a whole doctrine based on adding these two things to the Bible's prophecy.
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Where people differ in Corinthians is the word PERFECT.
The bible says when THAT WHICH IS PERFECT comes then gifts will disappear. Some believe the PERFECT is Jesus, and others believe the PERFECT is meaning the bible. As in the written record of God.

You can see this in 1 Corinthians 13:10.

If one believes the word "perfect" is meaning the written record of God then of course they will believe the gifts are gone.

The BIBLE is not mentioned in the bible because it was not yet complete, meaning written from GEnisis to Revelation and published throughout the world.

Those that do not believe in the modern day spiritual gifts believe that since we have the written record to prove the existence of God, Jesus, miracles and so on that we do not NEED them today as a form of worship.

This does not mean we think God is dead, and it certainly does not mean that we don't think God can and will heal people.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#45
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#45
thank you beth.
it doesn't seem that hard, but for some it is i guess.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#46
#46
Elizabeth619 said:
Where people differ in Corinthians is the word PERFECT.
The bible says when THAT WHICH IS PERFECT comes then gifts will disappear. Some believe the PERFECT is Jesus, and others believe the PERFECT is meaning the bible. As in the written record of God.

You can see this in 1 Corinthians 13:10.

If one believes the word "perfect" is meaning the written record of God then of course they will believe the gifts are gone.

The BIBLE is not mentioned in the bible because it was not yet complete, meaning written from GEnisis to Revelation and published throughout the world.

Those that do not believe in the modern day spiritual gifts believe that since we have the written record to prove the existence of God, Jesus, miracles and so on that we do not NEED them today as a form of worship.

This does not mean we think God is dead, and it certainly does not mean that we don't think God can and will heal people.
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I covered this perspective in a previous post. I do realize that the majority of posters on these forums either seldom have or take time to read posts over a couple of paragraphs so here is the paragraph which addresses what you have just brought to the discussion:

It proclaims that the [perfect] mentioned in verse 10 is a complete canon of Scripture (the Bible) which resulted in the end of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (prophecy, speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues) because they are somehow no longer needed. The problem with this view is that, throughout the centuries, Christian bishops and scholars have debated heavily as to which books should be included in the canon and which should not. The Bible used traditionally by Catholics for over 1500 years contains more books than the Bible used by the Eastern Orthodox Church; which, by the way, has been around just as long if not longer than Catholicism. The Eastern Orthodox Bible contains more books than your typical Protestant Bible. There are also many different translations of the Protestant bible (which vary in interpretation) each possessing equal validity to the meaning of their interpretations. Because of everything that I have just listed, there is no way to know with absolute certainty that the Bible you now hold in your hands is indeed the complete canon of scripture.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#47
#47
Elizabeth619 said:
Where people differ in Corinthians is the word PERFECT.
The bible says when THAT WHICH IS PERFECT comes then gifts will disappear. Some believe the PERFECT is Jesus, and others believe the PERFECT is meaning the bible. As in the written record of God.

You can see this in 1 Corinthians 13:10.

If one believes the word "perfect" is meaning the written record of God then of course they will believe the gifts are gone.

The BIBLE is not mentioned in the bible because it was not yet complete, meaning written from GEnisis to Revelation and published throughout the world.

Those that do not believe in the modern day spiritual gifts believe that since we have the written record to prove the existence of God, Jesus, miracles and so on that we do not NEED them today as a form of worship.

This does not mean we think God is dead, and it certainly does not mean that we don't think God can and will heal people.
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agree. Well said!
 
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