All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

[Ahwatukee]

Greetings Plainword,

You said:
"Again, thinking the seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential is a mistake many make. They don't run concurrent and they do not run in consecutive order. This was merely the order in which John was shown things. John was shown things in further detail at different times during his spiritual trip to heaven."

First, the burden of proof is on the one who believes that the seals, trumpets and bowls are not in the chronological order in which they are listed. With this interpretation of them, it becomes a chaotic mess! Second, there is nothing in the book of Revelation that would lead the expositor to believe that they seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are in any other order other than the way they are presented. The following is a short example proving that that they chronological:

"As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!” (Rev.8:13)

5th Trumpet/1st woe: Demonic being let out of the Abyss to torment mankind for five months with the stings like that of scorpions. (Rev.9:1-11)

"The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come." (Rev.9:12)

6th Trumpet/2nd woe: Four evil angels released to kill a third of mankind with 200 million demonic troops (Rev.9:13-19)

"The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon."

As demonstrated above, we can see that by the words "the first woe has passed and two other woes are yet to come," it is obvious that these three are chronological, that is, they take place in the order that they appear in print. This fact is unargueable.

The following is another example demonstrating that they are in chronological order:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. (Rev.15:1)

Regarding the above, since these seven bowl judgments, which are treated as a unit and are referred to as the "Last" plagues, then there would have to have been plagues that were "First," that is, plagues that will come before them. So, now we have at least 3 of the trumpet judgments that are without doubt in chronological order and all seven of the bowl judgmenst that are the last plagues, which is also demonstrating chronology. What do you think the chances are that the seals and trumpets one, two and three are also chronological?

 

[popeye]

Your statement would be quite significant were it not for the fact that the cosmology of ancient Israel regarded the atmosphere as part of heaven. Jesus could appear in the clouds and rapture the saints without leaving heaven.

hmmm,never really thought of this. good point

 

[popeye]

It remains arguable whether meeting the saints in the sky and taking them to heaven qualifies as an appearing in the sense you are using the word 'appearing'; since such a rapture does not require Him to leave heaven.

When Jesus was "raptured" the angels said he would return in LIKE MANNER.

This conflicts with postrib rapture in that after the gt he in no way appears in LIKE MANNER. (horses,swords,fire,warrior,accompanying saints/army,consumation of marriage,and on and on.)
So either the angels were completely deludded,or the rapture is in no way postrib.

 

[popeye]

Yes there is no such thing as 3 1/2 years of the wrath of satan followed by a 3 1/2 years of Gods wrath.

What happens is a 7 year period of time that starts with the signing of a peace treaty, that the antichrist breaks after 3 1/2 years. Those following final 3 1/2 years the antichrist seeks out to, and kill Gods elect. This then enrages God, and at the end of those final 3 1/2 years God pours out His wrath on the antichrist, false propher, and all that followed them.

Exactly.

Note that the AC RECIEVES POWER TO MURDER THE SAINTS.
The 4 hirsemen are relesed,comissioned,and empowered for a job.
If the power is SATANS then he could do this at any time.

Question;
What triggers this start of satans power over the saints?

 

[Sophia]

Seeing as the seals, trumpets and bowls are numbered, it should be assumed that each set is given a linear sequence (chronological).
However, this same principle does not apply to the 3 sets being chronologically in the order given. They could be both consecutive or parallel without causing any interpretational issues.

As for the two sets of 3.5 years,
It would be an assumption to say that they are consecutive. Just as the Last Week of years is separated from the rest by over 2000 years, the two sets of 3.5 could be just as far apart for all we know.
According to many reformers, the first 3.5 years actually occured back when Constantine and Augustine messed with the Church, and the last 3.5 is a future set.

 

[popeye]

Seeing as the seals, trumpets and bowls are numbered, it should be assumed that each set is given a linear sequence (chronological).
However, this same principle does not apply to the 3 sets being chronologically in the order given. They could be both consecutive or parallel without causing any interpretational issues.

As for the two sets of 3.5 years,
It would be an assumption to say that they are consecutive. Just as the Last Week of years is separated from the rest by over 2000 years, the two sets of 3.5 could be just as far apart for all we know.
According to many reformers, the first 3.5 years actually occured back when Constantine and Augustine messed with the Church, and the last 3.5 is a future set.

Except that the AC is present in both sets and the 2 witnesses are present in one set.


Hi sophia

 

[GaryA]

With regard to timing:

The vials occur in order as a group after the seventh trumpet sounds.

The vials represent the Wrath of God poured out upon the earth.

The trumpet events occur in order as a group after the tribulation period ends.

The trumpet events are not part of the Wrath of God. ( by biblical grammatical definition )
The trumpet events occur after the tribulation period; they are not part of the tribulation period.

The seals occur in order over a span of time that ranges from ~2000 ago - up until - and including - vial 7.

The first five seals occur during the tribulation period. Seal six overlaps seal seven, and seal seven overlaps the trumpets and vials.

Please see my Order of Events chart. Look at the fourth row. Note that seal six describes events that start at 'Trumpet 1' and run until 'Vial 7'.

( my view )

 

[GaryA]

Folks need to understand the "sense and tense" of the idea connected with the "opening" of a seal:

~ It marks the beginning of the unfolding of the events described in association with that seal.

~ It does not mean that the description of events associated with that seal must occur - in full completion - before the next seal is opened.

Does this help?

 

[GaryA]

Greetings Plainword,

You said:
"Again, thinking the seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential is a mistake many make. They don't run concurrent and they do not run in consecutive order. This was merely the order in which John was shown things. John was shown things in further detail at different times during his spiritual trip to heaven."

First, the burden of proof is on the one who believes that the seals, trumpets and bowls are not in the chronological order in which they are listed. With this interpretation of them, it becomes a chaotic mess! Second, there is nothing in the book of Revelation that would lead the expositor to believe that they seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are in any other order other than the way they are presented. The following is a short example proving that that they chronological:

"As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!” (Rev.8:13)

5th Trumpet/1st woe: Demonic being let out of the Abyss to torment mankind for five months with the stings like that of scorpions. (Rev.9:1-11)

"The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come." (Rev.9:12)

6th Trumpet/2nd woe: Four evil angels released to kill a third of mankind with 200 million demonic troops (Rev.9:13-19)

"The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon."

As demonstrated above, we can see that by the words "the first woe has passed and two other woes are yet to come," it is obvious that these three are chronological, that is, they take place in the order that they appear in print. This fact is unargueable.

The following is another example demonstrating that they are in chronological order:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. (Rev.15:1)

Regarding the above, since these seven bowl judgments, which are treated as a unit and are referred to as the "Last" plagues, then there would have to have been plagues that were "First," that is, plagues that will come before them. So, now we have at least 3 of the trumpet judgments that are without doubt in chronological order and all seven of the bowl judgmenst that are the last plagues, which is also demonstrating chronology. What do you think the chances are that the seals and trumpets one, two and three are also chronological?

What you are saying here is true -- that the Bible does actually tell us [ quite ] directly the order of some of these things ( which does indeed give us a basis for understanding it more perfectly ). However, it does not imply - for each set of seven - the seals, the trumpets, the vials - that they are consective and non-overlapping - individually ( as a set ) or as a whole complete group ( all of them together ). That is an extrapolation made in error. For - there is, in fact, some overlap... It is "less plain" in the scriptures than the things you mentioned - but, nonetheless, it is there...

 

[GaryA]

Note that the AC RECIEVES POWER TO MURDER THE SAINTS.

This is actually past history. Revelation 13:5 is referring to the dark ages - with a "sliding" jump forward to the [ reasonably ] near future ( verse 8 ).

It is this group of people ( murdered ) who are the "souls under the alter" in the fifth seal description. They await until the conclusion of the events described in Revelation 6:11 - those who were "killed as they were" --- this group of people are those who are the "final" beheaded in the tribulation ( Revelation 20:4 )...

 

[GaryA]

Seeing as the seals, trumpets and bowls are numbered, it should be assumed that each set is given a linear sequence (chronological).
However, this same principle does not apply to the 3 sets being chronologically in the order given. They could be both consecutive or parallel without causing any interpretational issues.

Correct - except for this part.

The Bible does, in fact, show us the order of events ( at least for the most part ) of all of these with regard to each other - some, very plainly - some not quite as plainly.

For the most part, the trumpets and vials are "pretty straight forward" - with regard to timing. It is the seals that are "complex" -- because, they are not fully concluded before the "beginning points" of the trumpet events and the vials --- and, hence - they overlap...

As for the two sets of 3.5 years,
It would be an assumption to say that they are consecutive. Just as the Last Week of years is separated from the rest by over 2000 years, the two sets of 3.5 could be just as far apart for all we know.
According to many reformers, the first 3.5 years actually occured back when Constantine and Augustine messed with the Church, and the last 3.5 is a future set.

There are not two [ biblically significant ] 3.5 year [ 'Last Days' / 'End Times Scenario' ] periods of time. There is only one [ biblically significant ] 3.5 year [ 'Last Days' / 'End Times Scenario' ] period of time ( "the two witnesses" ).

The popular "seven year tribulation period" idea and the popular "70th week is separated from the other 69" idea are assumptions based on erroneous interpretation of scripture.

 

[GaryA]

Except that the AC is present in both sets and the 2 witnesses are present in one set.

The error with the "AC during tribulation" thinking is that the tribulation period ( or, "this part of it" ) is 3.5 years in length.

 

[GaryA]

Food for thought:

Revelation 13:5 does not say that the "forty and two months" define the tribulation period - start point to end point.

EDIT: It only says that "power was given unto him to continue" for that length of time.

 

[GaryA]

Food for thought:

Revelation 13:5 does not say that the "forty and two months" define the tribulation period - start point to end point.

EDIT: It only says that "power was given unto him to continue" for that length of time.

I believe that this "forty and two months" is referring to a 1260 year span of time -- from 538 A.D. until 1798 A.D.

 

[GaryA]

Hi, PlainWord!

 

[PlainWord]

Greetings Plainword,

You said:
"Again, thinking the seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential is a mistake many make. They don't run concurrent and they do not run in consecutive order. This was merely the order in which John was shown things. John was shown things in further detail at different times during his spiritual trip to heaven."

First, the burden of proof is on the one who believes that the seals, trumpets and bowls are not in the chronological order in which they are listed. With this interpretation of them, it becomes a chaotic mess! Second, there is nothing in the book of Revelation that would lead the expositor to believe that they seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are in any other order other than the way they are presented. The following is a short example proving that that they chronological:

"As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!” (Rev.8:13)

5th Trumpet/1st woe: Demonic being let out of the Abyss to torment mankind for five months with the stings like that of scorpions. (Rev.9:1-11)

"The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come." (Rev.9:12)

6th Trumpet/2nd woe: Four evil angels released to kill a third of mankind with 200 million demonic troops (Rev.9:13-19)

"The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon."

As demonstrated above, we can see that by the words "the first woe has passed and two other woes are yet to come," it is obvious that these three are chronological, that is, they take place in the order that they appear in print. This fact is unargueable.

The following is another example demonstrating that they are in chronological order:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. (Rev.15:1)

Regarding the above, since these seven bowl judgments, which are treated as a unit and are referred to as the "Last" plagues, then there would have to have been plagues that were "First," that is, plagues that will come before them. So, now we have at least 3 of the trumpet judgments that are without doubt in chronological order and all seven of the bowl judgmenst that are the last plagues, which is also demonstrating chronology. What do you think the chances are that the seals and trumpets one, two and three are also chronological?

I don't disagree that the trumpets are sequential to the trumpets and that the bowls are sequential to the bowls. Further, I agree that the Bowls follow the trumpets. The point I was making is that the seals, are just that. They seal the scroll which contains the trumpets and bowls.

Again, the seals merely "seal" the scroll. Each seal gives a very brief description of what's written inside and on the back of the scroll. If it helps, think of it like this. The seals are nothing more than the Chapter Index of what's inside the Book.

The Trumpets are warnings; warnings of impending Judgment of the 7 Bowls of God's Wrath. However, the trumpets themselves are judgments in that they are the Wrath of Satan. Satan is a murderer and the father of all murderers. He very much wants to kill everyone including his own Islamic army.

Trumpet blasts were used at Jericho, 1 a day for 6 days then 7 on the 7th day. We also see trumpets in use in Ezekiel 33 when Ezekiel was told to warn "the children of his people" of coming judgment.

In the context of Revelation, the Trumpets are warnings to everyone, Jews, Christians and Muslims alike. As for the burden of proof of what I said, I already proved it. I demonstrated that the same 5 events, noises, thunderings, lightenings, earthquake and hail all happen AFTER each of the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl. These are not different series of 5 things, they are one event.

Further, I showed that the Tribulation is 4th seal. The Tribulation ends as the evil forces are gathered to Armageddon to attack Israel. By the The 6th seal, the Tribulation is over. Thus the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl actually come before the 6th seal.

See if you can follow the chronological order. We know from multiple passages all over the Bible that a great final battle will take place in Israel as hostile enemies of Israel come up against her before the Day of the Lord. Please pay attention to the location of where some of the enemies come from below - The River Euphrates. This location is given for both the 6th trumpet and 6th Bowl.

TRUMPET 6:

“Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

[SUP]18 [/SUP]By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.

BOWL 6:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

The "Kings from the East" of Israel are gathered at Armageddon to destroy Israel and more specifically Jerusalem. We are told this very same thing in the OT repeatedly.

Zech 14: Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem...

Now what happens just prior to the arrival of the Lord? Christ Himself locates the timing for us. Pay close attention as Christ tells us the Tribulation is over before He returns, then He gives very specific signs which are repeated in other passages,

Mat 24:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Here is one of several very clear passages from the OT that describe the SAME EXACT EVENT:

Joel 2:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

Joel tells us clearly that the above happens BEFORE the coming of the day of the Lord. Joel agrees with Jesus. Now what is discussed at the 6th Seal? Again, Seals are indexes. They don't all happen before the trumpets and bowls. Here is the proof of what I teach.

6th Seal:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

Can you not see from the three above identical passages that the Tribulation is over by the 6th seal?

The SUN TURNS BLACK
The MOON turns to BLOOD as an eclipse which also makes it dark

This two events happen BEFORE THE COMING OF THE LORD, thus they happen BEFORE the 6th trumpet and 6th Bowl.

 

[PlainWord]

Hi, PlainWord!

Hey Gary buddy!! How's it going? It won't be long now my friend...

 

[GaryA]

OOPS!

~2000 ago

~2000 years ago

 

[kennethcadwell]

Exactly.

Note that the AC RECIEVES POWER TO MURDER THE SAINTS.
The 4 hirsemen are relesed,comissioned,and empowered for a job.
If the power is SATANS then he could do this at any time.

Question;
What triggers this start of satans power over the saints?

The 4 horsemen have nothing to do with the man of sin and the final 3 1/2 years, as they are released in the opening of the first 4 seals. The 7 trumpets are not released to start sounding tell after the 7th seal is opened, and the bowl judgments come at the end of the 3 1/2 years.

 

[GaryA]

Thus the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl actually come before the 6th seal.

PlainWord:


Revelation 6:

[SUP]12[/SUP] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [SUP]13[/SUP] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


I believe these verses are describing the trumpet events. ( Please see my Order of Events chart. )

"Therefore, the 'opening' of the 6th seal comes first."

Just my thoughts...



BTW - In timing terms, Armageddon occurs between Vial 6 and Vial 7.