All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Here's another tidbit for you Gary, The 6th Trumpet which coincides with the 6th and 7th Bowl is clearly describing Armageddon. God destroys 1/3 of mankind at this battle. These 1/3 are mostly Muslim. The Muslim/Islamic race is either completely or almost completely wiped out at this battle.

How do we know the 6th Trumpet is about God killing 1/3 of mankind and that they are Muslim? First let's look at Ezekiel 38 then compare it to the 6th trumpet and bowl.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]“And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord God, “that My fury will show in My face. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: ‘Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel, [SUP]20 [/SUP]so that the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men who are on the face of the earth shall shake at My presence. The mountains shall be thrown down, the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.’ [SUP]21 [/SUP]I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains,” says the Lord God. “Every man’s sword will be against his brother. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the Lord.”’

How are the 1/3 killed?

[SUP]18 [/SUP]By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.

We see that fire and brimstone kills 1/3 of mankind. Ezekiel tells us these were sent by God and Rev 9 agrees. Now we see that the 7th Bowl which concludes the Wrath of God contains the massive earthquake and the hail.


[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” [SUP]18 [/SUP]And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.


Mountains thrown down, islands disappear in a great earthquake? We have Great Wrath of God. We have 1/3 of mankind killed, these 1/3 are identified as Muslim. All of these elements and more are found at the 6th seal.


[SUP]12 [/SUP]I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

These are not isolated events. These various passages all describe the same events - Armageddon and the Return of the Lord.

The very fact that the 6th seal, 6th trumpets and 6-7th bowls all describe the same events prove that the seals, trumpets and bowls are not sequential.
 
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popeye

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Originally Posted by popeye

Note that the AC RECIEVES POWER TO MURDER THE SAINTS.



Gary:"This is actually past history. Revelation 13:5 is referring to the dark ages - with a "sliding" jump forward to the [ reasonably ] near future ( verse 8 ).

It is this group of people ( murdered ) who are the "souls under the alter" in the fifth seal description. They await until the conclusion of the events described in Revelation 6:11 - those who were "killed as they were" --- this group of people are those who are the "final" beheaded in the tribulation ( Revelation 20:4 )...
Nope. That is future."
Read the post again. There are two (2) groups of "beheaded" - one is past, and one is future.

:)
This is wrong. rev 20 only REFERS BACK to those beheaded by AC. Postribs have wraped rev 20 around their doctrine.
Rediculous and blatant twisting of the bible.
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
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The False god Of Post-Trib "Christians"

[video=youtube;aieHQnsxJQg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aieHQnsxJQg[/video]

Published on Mar 6, 2015
Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
 
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popeye

Guest
( "In a manner of speaking..." )

Exactly! Both times... ;)

:)

That passage has nothing at all in it relevant to your position. You made it up and is a CORNERSTONE for a doctrine,not a sane exegesis.
 
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GaryA

Guest
rev 20 only REFERS BACK to those beheaded by AC.
( "In a manner of speaking..." )

Exactly! Both times... ;)

:)
That passage has nothing at all in it relevant to your position.
I'm sorry -- I still had my mind on the fifth seal description.

I can whole-heartedly agree that Revelation 20:4 certainly appears to be speaking of the second group only.



Revelation 6:

[SUP]9[/SUP] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: [SUP]10[/SUP] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [SUP]11[/SUP] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.



You do see that there are two groups of saints represented here - right? The first group are the ones 'under the alter' ( who have already been martyred ), and the second group are the ones 'that should be killed as they were'.

I am saying that the first group is from our past ( "the dark ages", broadly defined ), and the second group is still yet future ( "the mark of the beast", etc. ).

You made it up and is a CORNERSTONE for a doctrine,not a sane exegesis.
I did not make it up. And, it is completely sane. One has to see a "big enough" prophetic picture for it to make sense.

Believe what you will. Soon enough, you will understand... ;)

By the way - I reason that the 'timing' of the "opening" of the fifth seal - is "right about now, plus or minus"...

:)
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Gary,

I've got to side with Popeye on this one. I know, seems impossible that I agree with him on much.

Revelation 6:

[SUP]9[/SUP] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: [SUP]10[/SUP] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [SUP]11[/SUP] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.



You do see that there are two groups of saints represented here - right? The first group are the ones 'under the alter' ( who have already been martyred ), and the second group are the ones 'that should be killed as they were'.

I am saying that the first group is from our past ( "the dark ages", broadly defined ), and the second group is still yet future ( "the mark of the beast", etc. ).
If you understand that the 4th seal is Radical Islam and you realize that there has been no point in history where Islam has comprised 1/4 of the world's population until now, then you can locate where we are in time - i.e. entering the 4th seal. The 5th seal is the result of those killed in the 4th seal. But many more will die. I believe the 5th seal is the half way mark of Satan's Great Tribulation. The Man of Sin appears and the slaughter of Christians reaches new heights. We see the end result as the Great Multitude in Heaven in the next chapter.
 
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popeye

Guest
Gary,

I've got to side with Popeye on this one. I know, seems impossible that I agree with him on much.



If you understand that the 4th seal is Radical Islam and you realize that there has been no point in history where Islam has comprised 1/4 of the world's population until now, then you can locate where we are in time - i.e. entering the 4th seal. The 5th seal is the result of those killed in the 4th seal. But many more will die. I believe the 5th seal is the half way mark of Satan's Great Tribulation. The Man of Sin appears and the slaughter of Christians reaches new heights. We see the end result as the Great Multitude in Heaven in the next chapter.
Well,as I see it,postribs NEED rev 20 to say that the martyrs are RESURRECTED postrib. So,they MAKE IT say that,when in fact those very martyrs were killed and RESURRECTED way back near the start of the gt.
(they are merely being rewarded,remembered and memorialised......rev 20 does not define their TIMING of resurrection)
Hence the word games get played out into a non existant "smoking gun"
 
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PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Well,as I see it,postribs NEED rev 20 to say that the martyrs are RESURRECTED postrib. So,they MAKE IT say that,when in fact those very martyrs were killed and RESURRECTED way back near the start of the gt.
(they are merely being rewarded,remembered and memorialised......rev 20 does not define their TIMING of resurrection)
Hence the word games get played out into a non existant "smoking gun"
There is no resurrection before the Great Tribulation. You have not one shred of evidence to locate the resurrection prior to Satan's Tribulation, let alone God's wrath. We have Christians in Syria and Iraq getting beheaded RIGHT NOW!! Are they in the Tribulation? I bet if you asked them they would say "yes."

Again, Jesus told us 4 times that the resurrection is on the LAST DAY (John 6:40, 44, 54, 11:24). There is no passage in the Bible that tells us the LAST DAY is the day prior to the Tribulation. However, a case can be made that the LAST DAY could be the last day of earth as we know it. We know there is a great earthquake and a rejuvenation when Christ returns. Locating the resurrection here makes a lot of sense. A Pre Trib additional return of Christ defies all logic and again has ZERO Biblical support.

Additionally, Paul tells us very clearly when the believers on earth being persecuted get their rest. It isn't until the Second Coming Post Trib return of Christ.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God...

There is no wrath prior to the Second Coming.
 
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popeye

Guest
There is no resurrection before the Great Tribulation. You have not one shred of evidence to locate the resurrection prior to Satan's Tribulation, let alone God's wrath. We have Christians in Syria and Iraq getting beheaded RIGHT NOW!! Are they in the Tribulation? I bet if you asked them they would say "yes."

Again, Jesus told us 4 times that the resurrection is on the LAST DAY (John 6:40, 44, 54, 11:24). There is no passage in the Bible that tells us the LAST DAY is the day prior to the Tribulation. However, a case can be made that the LAST DAY could be the last day of earth as we know it. We know there is a great earthquake and a rejuvenation when Christ returns. Locating the resurrection here makes a lot of sense. A Pre Trib additional return of Christ defies all logic and again has ZERO Biblical support.

Additionally, Paul tells us very clearly when the believers on earth being persecuted get their rest. It isn't until the Second Coming Post Trib return of Christ.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God...

There is no wrath prior to the Second Coming.
We have Christians in Syria and Iraq getting beheaded RIGHT NOW!! Are they in the Tribulation? I bet if you asked them they would say "yes."
I never ask anyone,martyr,pope,pastor,etc permission as to what I need to believe.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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I never ask anyone,martyr,pope,pastor,etc permission as to what I need to believe.
Who do you ask, yourself? You certainly aren't listening to when Jesus says the resurrection is.

I guess also that the Tribulation isn't here until they start beheading people on your street. Are you one of those who think nothing counts until it hits close to home? I am not aware of any passage that discusses any of the Tribulation happening in America either, so if you are waiting to see it here, you will miss it completely.
 
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GaryA

Guest
entering the 4th seal.
Weeeeellllllllll..........

I can go along with the idea that we are "in the 4th seal" --- which puts the 5th seal ( as per my statement ) in the 'plus' part of "plus or minus"... ( i.e. - in the reasonably near future )


:)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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I never ask anyone,martyr,pope,pastor,etc permission as to what I need to believe.
One last effort Popeye,

You believe the resurrection is at the Pre-Trib Rapture, correct? Can we assume that you believe that Lazarus (Jesus' close friend) would be part of this Rapture?

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

The essence of your view necessitates that the Last Day must be the day right before the Tribulation begins. So you are believing that Jesus returns and this is the last day then the very next day, the Tribulation starts. There can be no other explanation or you are in conflict with Jesus.

So when does Jesus say the Tribulation begins? Does it begin immediately after Christ's Rapture return as you think?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place”...[SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

What is this???? Jesus says the Great Tribulation starts right after the Abomination of Desolation is seen standing in the Holy Place. Jesus tells those he's supposed to be coming to Rapture to flee to the mountains. Doesn't Jesus gather? Why would Jesus want people to flee?

In your view, Christ returns and the Abomination of Desolation stands in the Holy Place on the same exact day!!


Is that your view Popeye??? Are you saying that Jesus is the Abomination of Desolation? You can't be saying that so please explain how this could be possible.
 
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GaryA

Guest
Are all of the saints in white robes in these passages the same people?


Revelation 6:

[SUP]9[/SUP] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: [SUP]10[/SUP] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [SUP]11[/SUP] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:

[SUP]9[/SUP] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; [SUP]10[/SUP] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. [SUP]11[/SUP] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, [SUP]12[/SUP] Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. [SUP]13[/SUP] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? [SUP]14[/SUP] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [SUP]15[/SUP] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. [SUP]16[/SUP] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. [SUP]17[/SUP] For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 20:

[SUP]4[/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5[/SUP] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6[/SUP] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Do you think the saints depicted in the above green-highlighted wording in Revelation 20 are included in the multitude of the Revelation 7 passage?

Do you think the saints of the Revelation 6 passage are included in the multitude of the Revelation 7 passage?


Whatever you might believe - or whatever may or may not make sense in all of this - the following cannot be disputed:

These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The Bible says there will come out of great tribulation a multitude of saints who are martyred for their faith.

Now - it is up to each of us to either accept that this is talking about "the great tribulation" - or, write it off and explain it away so that we can feel "comfy and cozy" in the believe that we will not have to face any of it.

And, don't tell me that the falling-away back-sliding Christians of today have somehow obtained a free pass to escape tribulation while other brethren - some in the past, and some to follow - have been ordained by God to "take the brunt of it" for them... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:)
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Weeeeellllllllll..........

I can go along with the idea that we are "in the 4th seal" --- which puts the 5th seal ( as per my statement ) in the 'plus' part of "plus or minus"... ( i.e. - in the reasonably near future )


:)
YES, YES, YES. The 4th seal has started and is underway. The third seal depicts the filthy rich wealthy Arab Oil Kings who live luxuriously while most of their people starve or barely get by on a day's wages for basic food and essentials.

I believe, as I've been saying, that Revelation is primarily an expansion of Ezekiel 38-39, Dan 11-12 and other OT prophesy. It is all about the rise of the world's Great False Religion which is Islam (Mystery Babylon) and it's effect on 1) the Arab World, 2) the Jewish State, 3) the world in general. However, most of the action is where historically it has always been.

The seals represent ISLAM starting with the White Horse - Muhammad, to the Red Horse - Ottoman Empire to the Black Horse which is all about the Arab Kings of the Earth who are further discussed in Rev 13, 17-19. The 5th seal is the manifestation of all those killed by Islam who are in heaven, others (fellow followers of Allah) will go to Hades as the fourth seal tells us. Jesus started removing the seals slowly, now increasingly faster as labor pains.

I am rethinking my position on ISIS. I think Iran is the far bigger threat and by itself could become the Lion, Bear, Leopard all by itself if Iran takes over the region (Sea Nations). Clearly we have two primary groups of Muslims or followers of Allah, the Sunnis and the Shia. Shia could be from the "Sea" region North of Israel led by Iran, while the Sunnis are from the South, from the "Earth."

Interestingly all ARAB Kings (of the earth) are from the south of Iran today. We have kings in Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UEA, Oman, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
 
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weakness

Guest
Your talk is confusing to me. Much of it makes no sence to me. I have a fairly good Knowledge of scipture ,but .......This muslem thing is new to me, I'm sure some are involved in end times but, doesn't center it on them. To me. So many things youv'e said seem pointless or maybe I'm not getting the point.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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Your talk is confusing to me. Much of it makes no sence to me. I have a fairly good Knowledge of scipture ,but .......This muslem thing is new to me, I'm sure some are involved in end times but, doesn't center it on them. To me. So many things youv'e said seem pointless or maybe I'm not getting the point.
It's new to you because most preaching concerning prophesy is absolutely false. Most churches take Revelation, which is a highly spiritual book, and they try to literalize it. If you go back to the very first commandment, what does God command?

Exodus 20:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]“You shall have no other gods before Me.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; [SUP]5 [/SUP]you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me...

It is, and has always been, about good vs. evil, and worshiping our true God vs. not worship idols and false gods. If you study how Muslims worship, you will see that they worship in exactly the same way as the original Babylonians. They worship a graven image (the Kaaba Stone) which has fallen from the sky. They worship it and they serve it. They scream Allahu Akbar which means God (their god Allah) is Great! Islam is by far the largest single religion in the world and it is a false religion making it Mystery Babylon, the Mother of all Harlots.

Daniel and Revelation identify "Beast" Kingdoms. All of which have enslaved God's Chosen people, Israel. All of which corrupted Israel with their pagan religion and idols. Ezekiel 38-39 as well as Dan 11-12, Jer 50-51, Isaiah and pretty much all of the minor prophets foretell that the "Mixed Peoples" which are Arabs, will come against Israel in the latter days. Revelation pretty much is just repeating all of these predictions but with much more of a spiritual slant using Biblical symbols and imagery.

It has been and continues to ALWAYS be about Israel and her dealings with her enemies - the Arab world - and more particularly Islam. If you think there is going to be some revival of the Rome or Europe will produce the AntiChrist and that we will all have to take some micro chip or be killed, that's just pure fantasy. If you see mountains crashing into the sea with trees and grass burning up literal beast coming up out of the ocean and/or land, then you are missing the spiritual symbols in use. Christ tells us, it will be like the days of Noah, when nobody will be expecting it or see it coming.

I have been studying prophesy and in particular, Revelation, all of my life and the reality of what's coming and already here, is nothing like we've been taught. The Tim LaHayes and John Hagees of the world are completely clueless, sorry.