All things James

[Chris1975]

Jesus told the Jews had to keep the Law of Moses (Matthew 5), as you have made this your main contribution in this forum.

But Jesus told Paul to tell us Gentiles, (and the Jews who believed), that we are dead to the Law Romans 7:4

That is a very significant difference, don't you think?

Romans 7v4 dead to the law means this: You are no longer under the written penalty for having contravened those laws. The law said "THOU SHALT NOT", but YOU DID, and this means DEATH. But because Jesus came in the flesh and fulfilled the law fully, he condemned sin in the flesh so that those charges against you can be dropped.
That is what this passage means in Romans 7v4

Now we look to what Jesus commands us:

Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

These commands are fulfilled in our daily walk in the Spirit, and not the flesh.

Romans 3
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
-The law is no longer is our judge. But that does not mean that we become law breakers.

 

[Guojing]

Romans 7v4 dead to the law means this: You are no longer under the written penalty for having contravened those laws. The law said "THOU SHALT NOT", but YOU DID, and this means DEATH. But because Jesus came in the flesh and fulfilled the law fully, he condemned sin in the flesh so that those charges against you can be dropped.
That is what this passage means in Romans 7v4

Now we look to what Jesus commands us:

Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

These commands are fulfilled in our daily walk in the Spirit, and not the flesh.

Anyway, my point was that the instructions under the Gospel of the Kingdom were fundamentally different from the Gospel of Grace, especially with regards to the Law of Moses.

I don't expect you to agree since, as I have stated, you came into this forum specifically to emphasize law keeping.

 

[Chris1975]

Anyway, my point was that the instructions under the Gospel of the Kingdom were fundamentally different from the Gospel of Grace, especially with regards to the Law of Moses.

I don't expect you to agree since, as I have stated, you came into this forum specifically to emphasize law keeping.

Romans 3
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
-The law is no longer is our judge. But that does not mean that we become law breakers.

1 John 3
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

 

[Chris1975]

Anyway, my point was that the instructions under the Gospel of the Kingdom were fundamentally different from the Gospel of Grace, especially with regards to the Law of Moses.

I don't expect you to agree since, as I have stated, you came into this forum specifically to emphasize law keeping.

Can you give an example of where the Gospel of the Kingdom is in direct opposition to the Gospel of Grace (as you see it). I see them one and the same, but if you could highlight, maybe we could get to the bottom of it.

 

[Blik]

That’s speculation, but I’ll go with it. You’re admitting those OT saints did not make it to Abraham’s bosom through the gospel. So how did they get there?

The very first thing God did for us after the fall of Adam and Eve was establish salvation for us through (eternally) the blood of Christ. The symbolic blood of Christ was required for salvation from the first. Cain tried to gain salvation through sacrificing his work, and it failed. In Lev. 17 that speaks of the sacrificing of blood for salvation it says this: 11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

There is no scripture in the OT that speaks of heaven because OT salvation was in sleep, but in Matt. 27 it tells us that when the curtain or the temple split at Christ's crucifixion they came alive. Matt 27: 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people. t speak of heaven because salvation, until Christ was crucified, was in sleep, but in Matt. 27:

 

[Guojing]

Can you give an example of where the Gospel of the Kingdom is in direct opposition to the Gospel of Grace (as you see it). I see them one and the same, but if you could highlight, maybe we could get to the bottom of it.

I have already gave the key example, regarding the Law of Moses.

But because you hold the doctrine that it continues to hold for now, you will naturally not accept it.

 

[John146]

Can you give an example of where the Gospel of the Kingdom is in direct opposition to the Gospel of Grace (as you see it). I see them one and the same, but if you could highlight, maybe we could get to the bottom of it.

The disciples were preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and yet they no no understanding of the d,b,r of Jesus.

Luke 18
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

 

[John146]

Can you give an example of where the Gospel of the Kingdom is in direct opposition to the Gospel of Grace (as you see it). I see them one and the same, but if you could highlight, maybe we could get to the bottom of it.

I’ll give another, pasted from an earlier post of mine.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Has the end come? Paul says his gospel has gone out to all the world, unto all nations. Must be different.

Colossians 1:
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

[Chris1975]

I have already gave the key example, regarding the Law of Moses.

But because you hold the doctrine that it continues to hold for now, you will naturally not accept it.

OK...let me try a different angle:

Matthew 22
34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

@Guojing Where in Moses Law were these two commandments?

 

[Chris1975]

OK...let me try a different angle:

Matthew 22
34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

@Guojing Where in Moses Law were these two commandments?

And with the abolishing of the Law of Moses as you claim, which of these two commandments:

1) You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind
2) You shall love your neighbor as yourself

Are NOT applicable to the Gentile Church?

 

[Blik]

Jesus told the Jews had to keep the Law of Moses (Matthew 5), as you have made this your main contribution in this forum.

But Jesus told Paul to tell us Gentiles, (and the Jews who believed), that we are dead to the Law Romans 7:4

That is a very significant difference, don't you think?

All scripture tells us God (the triune God) is against sin. Sin is breaking the divine law, and the law of Moses contains divine law. All scripture tells us that it is only blood, the eternal blood of
Christ, that gives salvation. You are making one scripture truth oppose another scripture truth, but they are both truth and fit side by side.

 

[Guojing]

All scripture tells us God (the triune God) is against sin. Sin is breaking the divine law, and the law of Moses contains divine law. All scripture tells us that it is only blood, the eternal blood of
Christ, that gives salvation. You are making one scripture truth oppose another scripture truth, but they are both truth and fit side by side.

A simpler explanation is this

The Law of Moses was never given to Gentiles. As Galatians 3 stated, it was added to the Abraham Covenant for the Jews only.

So it made perfect sense for Jesus to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom only to the Jews since that Gospel required strict obedience to the Law of Moses.

But once the Jewish nation rejected their Gospel and crucified their King, God began the mystery grace dispensation for the whole world, that all of us are now dead to the Law of Moses.

 

[Blik]

A simpler explanation is this

The Law of Moses was never given to Gentiles. As Galatians 3 stated, it was added to the Abraham Covenant for the Jews only.

So it made perfect sense for Jesus to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom only to the Jews since that Gospel required strict obedience to the Law of Moses.

But once the Jewish nation rejected their Gospel and crucified their King, God began the mystery grace dispensation for the whole world, that all of us are now dead to the Law of Moses.

When you divide scripture by race and not by truth it comes out an entirely new religion. God isn't telling the world about His policies and how God created the world to operate any more, it means scripture is read by what race is hearing the word, and it isn't a universal truth any longer. It means that God has separate worlds for each race to live in. It makes learning about God separate and the two churches simply can't communicate any longer. One is true and one is false. God knows which is false. I'm sticking with the universal truth idea and betting my life on it.

 

[Guojing]

When you divide scripture by race and not by truth it comes out an entirely new religion. God isn't telling the world about His policies and how God created the world to operate any more, it means scripture is read by what race is hearing the word, and it isn't a universal truth any longer. It means that God has separate worlds for each race to live in. It makes learning about God separate and the two churches simply can't communicate any longer. One is true and one is false. God knows which is false. I'm sticking with the universal truth idea and betting my life on it.

I don’t see the issue. You don’t build an ark now even though God commanded it in genesis because you know, it was written for Noah to follow and not you correct?

Likewise, Gentiles were not commanded to be circumcised Nor to be under the law of Moses.

 

[Blik]

I don’t see the issue. You don’t build an ark now even though God commanded it in genesis because you know, it was written for Noah to follow and not you correct?

Likewise, Gentiles were not commanded to be circumcised Nor to be under the law of Moses.

If we lived in the same century Noah lived in and we were Noah, God wouldn't look to our parents to decide whether or not to tell us to build an ark because a flood was coming. Scripture tells us not to be physically circumcised, but to be spiritually circumcised. We are told to obey the spirit of the law, not the ritualistic law but it would be impossible to not obey the ten commandments and obey the spirit of the law. Each commandment tells of a way to express love, the essence of the spirit of the law.

Our entire world operates by law from the tides of the ocean to society. The law as we read it in scripture tells us how the spiritual realm operates.

 

[Absolutely]

I don’t see the issue. You don’t build an ark now even though God commanded it in genesis because you know, it was written for Noah to follow and not you correct?

Likewise, Gentiles were not commanded to be circumcised Nor to be under the law of Moses.

All the apostles and Jesus understood the gospel.

Only noah was told to build an ark.
Nobody is commisioned to build any ark.

 

[Guojing]

All the apostles and Jesus understood the gospel.

Only noah was told to build an ark.
Nobody is commisioned to build any ark.

Yes, in the same way, ONLY the 12 were given the great commission to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Nobody among the Gentiles were commissioned now to preach that same gospel.

 

[John146]

Some claim that the audience of James are those scattered abroad in Acts 8. Let’s compare these people to the audience of James.

Acts 8
1. And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

Vs

James 4
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


Those scattered in Acts went about preaching the word. Compare them with those James is speaking with; ye lust, ye kill, ye fight, ye war, ye adulterers and adulteresses, ye have not...

 

[JohnR7]

he is greeting the people at that time not writing a time capsule greeting people he doesnt even know in the future.

You need to study bible interpretation hermeneutics. First we look at the original audience the letter was intended for. Then we look at how the letter applies to us today in our generation. This of course is what people study when they attend a Bible College. They do not teach this as much at the sunday school level class for kids.

 

[JohnR7]

Nobody among the Gentiles were commissioned now to preach that same gospel.

Luke was a gentile and a doctor. He had never been to any sort of religious school. He just made a dilight study on his own. We know a lot about Mary for example from Luke and his discussions with her. Even though it was John that Jesus asked to take care of Mary. John does not talk very much about her.