And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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The big difference between us is how emotions factor in.
For me, I have no desire either way regarding what God should do to unbelievers. It's totally His deal. All I'm interested in is what does His Word say about it. And I accept it.
For you, it seems you are driven by emotions. You can't understand how God could or would torment any creature for eternity. So your whole viewpoint is driven by those emotions.
I come at Scripture agnostically. No preconceived ideas or emotions. Just interest in what the Bible says. So I'm not swayed by what "seems to be logical to me". When emotions are involved, logics takes on a whole new twist.
Since God is Creator, and sovereign, WHATEVER He has planned for unbelievers is totally fine with me. I am completely at ease whether His plan is to vaporize the souls of unbelievers or to torment the souls of unbelievers for ever. Either way makes absolutely no difference to me.
I think of Arminians, who argue vigorously about losing salvation, and their emotions easily come through when they keep coming up with their various "examples" of "what if....." this or "what if......." that scenarios.
And of course, all their examples are extreme cases. It is clear they are running on emotions, which cloud their discernment.
They have put their emotional viewpoint on a par with God and conclude that since such and such is so offensive to them, it must also be to God, and therefore, those extreme behaviors they list just MUST qualify for losing salvation.
My standards aren't even close to God's most high standards. He is free to do whatever He chooses. Since He is perfect, whatever He does is also perfect.
Not a lot of believers think that way. They apply their own standards to God and expect God to act in the ways they WOULD if they were God.
So, if you have a problem with unbelievers being tormented for eternity, maybe, just maybe, you need to do some real deep soul searching and try to figure out why it bothers you so much.
Let go, and let God.
For me, I have no desire either way regarding what God should do to unbelievers. It's totally His deal. All I'm interested in is what does His Word say about it. And I accept it.
For you, it seems you are driven by emotions. You can't understand how God could or would torment any creature for eternity. So your whole viewpoint is driven by those emotions.
I come at Scripture agnostically. No preconceived ideas or emotions. Just interest in what the Bible says. So I'm not swayed by what "seems to be logical to me". When emotions are involved, logics takes on a whole new twist.
Since God is Creator, and sovereign, WHATEVER He has planned for unbelievers is totally fine with me. I am completely at ease whether His plan is to vaporize the souls of unbelievers or to torment the souls of unbelievers for ever. Either way makes absolutely no difference to me.
I think of Arminians, who argue vigorously about losing salvation, and their emotions easily come through when they keep coming up with their various "examples" of "what if....." this or "what if......." that scenarios.
And of course, all their examples are extreme cases. It is clear they are running on emotions, which cloud their discernment.
They have put their emotional viewpoint on a par with God and conclude that since such and such is so offensive to them, it must also be to God, and therefore, those extreme behaviors they list just MUST qualify for losing salvation.
My standards aren't even close to God's most high standards. He is free to do whatever He chooses. Since He is perfect, whatever He does is also perfect.
Not a lot of believers think that way. They apply their own standards to God and expect God to act in the ways they WOULD if they were God.
So, if you have a problem with unbelievers being tormented for eternity, maybe, just maybe, you need to do some real deep soul searching and try to figure out why it bothers you so much.
Let go, and let God.
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It’s okay I should have been more specific.
Post #196 says:
“Quite the opposite, actually. You have to PRESUME the rest of the unbelievers iin Rev 20:11-15 won't experience what the beast, FP and the devil will experience when they are cast into the LOF. Re 20:10”
And you seemed to agree with that. I was just curious why you agree wit that and isn’t it an assumption that works both ways? Don’t eternal tormentors use Revelation 20:10 as a verse they assume applies to all unsaved people?
Post #196 says:
“Quite the opposite, actually. You have to PRESUME the rest of the unbelievers iin Rev 20:11-15 won't experience what the beast, FP and the devil will experience when they are cast into the LOF. Re 20:10”
And you seemed to agree with that. I was just curious why you agree wit that and isn’t it an assumption that works both ways? Don’t eternal tormentors use Revelation 20:10 as a verse they assume applies to all unsaved people?
You made it personal for you when you brought your emotions into it. I recall your reaction to the idea that God would torment people for eternity. If that isn't an emotion, they don't exist.
See? You're doing it again. You're putting your emotions on your sleeve. As if God's own words and plan "make Him look bad".
You see, that is YOUR OPINIONATED emotion talking. Nothing more.
People who bring their opinions and emotions to the Bible, always come away with finding verses that are heavily colored by their opinions and emotions.
You just can't stand the thought of God tormenting people for ever.
So, why don't you just realize that since human beings have no excuse (Rom 1:20), consider that they determined their own future.
Would that help you?
Anyway, I like how you keep proving my point.
See? You're doing it again. You're putting your emotions on your sleeve. As if God's own words and plan "make Him look bad".
You see, that is YOUR OPINIONATED emotion talking. Nothing more.
People who bring their opinions and emotions to the Bible, always come away with finding verses that are heavily colored by their opinions and emotions.
You just can't stand the thought of God tormenting people for ever.
So, why don't you just realize that since human beings have no excuse (Rom 1:20), consider that they determined their own future.
Would that help you?
Anyway, I like how you keep proving my point.
God’s word says the fate of the unsaved is that they perish, are destroyed, or put to death. This is an unchanging fact. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."
Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."
Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."
Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."
Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."
Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."
Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."
2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."
Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."
Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."
Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."
Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.
2 Chronicles 28:3
"He burned incense in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel." (the Valley of Ben Hinnom is where the concept of Gehenna or Hell comes from)
Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"
Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."
Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."
John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)
2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."
2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"
Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."
Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."
Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."
Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."
Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."
Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."
Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."
2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."
Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."
Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."
Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."
Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.
2 Chronicles 28:3
"He burned incense in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel." (the Valley of Ben Hinnom is where the concept of Gehenna or Hell comes from)
Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"
Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."
Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."
John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)
2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."
2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"
Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
I BELIEVE all this. However, I know what it means, unlike yourself. You have been letting your emotions cloud your view.
"perish", "destroyed" and "put to death" ALL refer to the body, and I've thoroughly explained that the bodies of unbelievers will ALL die again. That is why the LOF is also called the second death.
And you can save your fingers from wearing out from typing all those verses. They are about physical death.
You have the totally ILLOGICAL notion that a non-existent soul can be punished. Beyond weird. But of course you are forced to believe that in order to keep your opinion alive.
Punishment requires awareness. That is a fact that doesn't even need to be said.
"perish", "destroyed" and "put to death" ALL refer to the body, and I've thoroughly explained that the bodies of unbelievers will ALL die again. That is why the LOF is also called the second death.
And you can save your fingers from wearing out from typing all those verses. They are about physical death.
You have the totally ILLOGICAL notion that a non-existent soul can be punished. Beyond weird. But of course you are forced to believe that in order to keep your opinion alive.
Punishment requires awareness. That is a fact that doesn't even need to be said.
You’ve thoroughly showcased your ignorance on the matter. Soul and body and destroyed in the second death. There’s no verse that says the human soul is immortal unless God gives it immortality. When God said the soul that sins will die it means that the wages of sin is death. A death sentence is a punishment that is everlasting.
I’ve prayed on the matter and have confirmation that the interpretation I’m showing here is accurate. I suggest you do the same and learn how to listen to what the Holy Spirit is saying in real life and in the Bible itself.
I’ve prayed on the matter and have confirmation that the interpretation I’m showing here is accurate. I suggest you do the same and learn how to listen to what the Holy Spirit is saying in real life and in the Bible itself.
Really not interested in your opinions here. You've already revealed your opinionated emotions on the matter, and they have blinded you to the truth.
Merely an opinion. And not biblically proven. otoh, the REASON the LOF can be called the SECOND death is because the physical body of unbelievers that will be resurrected are going to DIE again. Count 'em. That's TWO deaths. Biblically sound.
It simply doesn't matter. The Bible says clearly that thos3 in the LOF will be tormented for ever and ever. That's plenty enough proof.
In fact, if your emotionally packed opinion were true, that only the beast and FP from the human race will be tormented for ever, why doesn't the Bible makes that perfectly clear in the passage where it should be stated; Rev 20:11-15. But it doesn't.
Again, and again, I AGREE. And "punishment" is something that is experienced. That's the purpose of it.
Anyone can claim that. So what? Your emotions have blinded you to truth. And maybe your prayers.
I've been using the Berean Bible study method for many years. You think I wouldn't be praying for clarity, discernment and truth?
You just can't get around the FACT that punishment requires experience.
Merely an opinion. And not biblically proven. otoh, the REASON the LOF can be called the SECOND death is because the physical body of unbelievers that will be resurrected are going to DIE again. Count 'em. That's TWO deaths. Biblically sound.
It simply doesn't matter. The Bible says clearly that thos3 in the LOF will be tormented for ever and ever. That's plenty enough proof.
In fact, if your emotionally packed opinion were true, that only the beast and FP from the human race will be tormented for ever, why doesn't the Bible makes that perfectly clear in the passage where it should be stated; Rev 20:11-15. But it doesn't.
Again, and again, I AGREE. And "punishment" is something that is experienced. That's the purpose of it.
Anyone can claim that. So what? Your emotions have blinded you to truth. And maybe your prayers.
I've been using the Berean Bible study method for many years. You think I wouldn't be praying for clarity, discernment and truth?
You just can't get around the FACT that punishment requires experience.
If God says the soul can die and you don’t say the soul can die then that’s your problem now. I’ve done my best to help you see otherwise. That’s between you and God now, in this world, and possibly on judgement day. Now I’ll leave you to your preferred false doctrine.
Meanwhile, I’ll stand on these verses and be fully justified in the truth. It’s a very comfortable place to be when we are in harmony with God’s word. I hope you’ll join us someday.
James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."
Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."
Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."
Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."
Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."
Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."
Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."
2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."
Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."
Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."
Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."
Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.
2 Chronicles 28:3
"He burned incense in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel." (the Valley of Ben Hinnom is where the concept of Gehenna or Hell comes from)
Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"
Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."
Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."
John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)
2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."
2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"
Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
Meanwhile, I’ll stand on these verses and be fully justified in the truth. It’s a very comfortable place to be when we are in harmony with God’s word. I hope you’ll join us someday.
James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."
Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."
Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."
Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."
Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."
Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."
Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."
2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."
Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."
Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."
Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."
Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.
2 Chronicles 28:3
"He burned incense in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel." (the Valley of Ben Hinnom is where the concept of Gehenna or Hell comes from)
Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"
Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."
Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."
John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)
2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."
2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"
Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
I do agree and I think the studies of the meaning of the words within the culture show that "aionios" and "aionios zoe" everlasting life are not temporal as in an amount of time but rather quality or calibre of life.
Literal plain text is not how to understand the meaning of scripture.
Scripture was written in Koine Greek and to a certain audience, the words also come from a certain cultural context and perspective.
This verse is the antitype of the snake being lifted in the desert when read in context. Perish here is the separation of body and spirit.
The audience to whom Jesus was speaking knew the connection He was making, given this anti-type connection it is not feasible to assert Jesus was teaching that unbelievers would be annihilated.
As well, annihilationism sets up a complete contradiction in that non believers do not have immortality but they are able to be punished first and then annihilated as in no longer exist in any form.
I think you are very entrenched in this view as I stated elsewhere without the correct understanding of the Oliver discourse it is becomes very difficult to understand a great deal of what Jesus and the writers of the NT were teaching.
Literal plain text is not how to understand the meaning of scripture.
Scripture was written in Koine Greek and to a certain audience, the words also come from a certain cultural context and perspective.
This verse is the antitype of the snake being lifted in the desert when read in context. Perish here is the separation of body and spirit.
The audience to whom Jesus was speaking knew the connection He was making, given this anti-type connection it is not feasible to assert Jesus was teaching that unbelievers would be annihilated.
As well, annihilationism sets up a complete contradiction in that non believers do not have immortality but they are able to be punished first and then annihilated as in no longer exist in any form.
I think you are very entrenched in this view as I stated elsewhere without the correct understanding of the Oliver discourse it is becomes very difficult to understand a great deal of what Jesus and the writers of the NT were teaching.
I don't have a problem. I've already acknowledged that God is sovereign and CAN do anything He wants. And I BELIEVE that God is fully able to vaporize souls. So what? What does the Bible talk about? Death. Based on sin. All that is about the body. And I've proven that.
Like the good Bereans of Paul's day, I only want to see the truth and what does the Word of God say.
As if it hasn't been already? Where have you been?
You can call it whatever you want. Doesn't matter to me a bit. I know what the Bible says, I don't have any emotional ties to either side of the argument, unlike yourself, so I just let the chips fall where they do.
All of my theology is based on what does the Scriptures say, just as it did for the Bereans. I am very comfortable with that.
You still haven't shown ANY verse that includes BOTH body and soul in a "death" verse. That would sure clear it up.
Yes He does.
OK, I'm not going to make a quip with all your list of quotes.
I will make this summary quote from ALL of the quotes you just provided. ALL of them refer to "destruction", "destroyed", "die" "consume" and "return to dust".
Do you not see what ALL of these words refer to? The body, not the soul. Souls are immaterial and cannot "return to dust".
I enjoy participating in these forums because they cause me to get deeping into subjects that I might on my own.
And all the discussions I've had lately regarding end times has enlightened me on some things I had never considerered before
One of the was about the resurrection of unbelievers. Hadn't thought of that before. But the Bible is clear, in John 5:28,29 abd Acts 24:15. They will rise up again, to meet the king at the GWT judgment. The Bible saye "every knee will bow". Do you think a soul that is immaterial has knees that will bend? That makes no sense.
So count on the fact that the soul of every unbeliever will again join up with their physical body at their resurrection only to have their carcass thrown into the LOF, and they will personally KNOW AND EXPERIENCE a second death of their body.
And, after that, only their soul will remain, tormented day and night, for ever and ever.
For the believer, there will actually be no dead ever. Yes, we will physically die. But, in OUR resurrection, our souls will be joined to our resurrected AND glorified bodies and be joined together for ever and ever.
So, in that sence, the body we are born with will be the body (though glorified) we will live with for ever and ever.
No, no part of the believer will be vaporized. Think about it.[/QUOTE]
Like the good Bereans of Paul's day, I only want to see the truth and what does the Word of God say.
As if it hasn't been already? Where have you been?
You can call it whatever you want. Doesn't matter to me a bit. I know what the Bible says, I don't have any emotional ties to either side of the argument, unlike yourself, so I just let the chips fall where they do.
All of my theology is based on what does the Scriptures say, just as it did for the Bereans. I am very comfortable with that.
You still haven't shown ANY verse that includes BOTH body and soul in a "death" verse. That would sure clear it up.
Yes He does.
OK, I'm not going to make a quip with all your list of quotes.
I will make this summary quote from ALL of the quotes you just provided. ALL of them refer to "destruction", "destroyed", "die" "consume" and "return to dust".
Do you not see what ALL of these words refer to? The body, not the soul. Souls are immaterial and cannot "return to dust".
I enjoy participating in these forums because they cause me to get deeping into subjects that I might on my own.
And all the discussions I've had lately regarding end times has enlightened me on some things I had never considerered before
One of the was about the resurrection of unbelievers. Hadn't thought of that before. But the Bible is clear, in John 5:28,29 abd Acts 24:15. They will rise up again, to meet the king at the GWT judgment. The Bible saye "every knee will bow". Do you think a soul that is immaterial has knees that will bend? That makes no sense.
So count on the fact that the soul of every unbeliever will again join up with their physical body at their resurrection only to have their carcass thrown into the LOF, and they will personally KNOW AND EXPERIENCE a second death of their body.
And, after that, only their soul will remain, tormented day and night, for ever and ever.
For the believer, there will actually be no dead ever. Yes, we will physically die. But, in OUR resurrection, our souls will be joined to our resurrected AND glorified bodies and be joined together for ever and ever.
So, in that sence, the body we are born with will be the body (though glorified) we will live with for ever and ever.
No, no part of the believer will be vaporized. Think about it.[/QUOTE]
Interesting point, but I couldn’t reverse my view on this and still have a clean conscience because I’m aware of what the Bible actually says on the matter and what the early church continued to teach.
Have you looked into when the church started teaching hell as a place of eternal torment?
Have you looked into when the church started teaching hell as a place of eternal torment?
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You're calling the orthodox view, the view of the majority of the church throughout it's history & today, a heresy.
Also, God's righteous judgment makes him look bad? We can't alter our doctrines to cater to the shifting standards
of the outside world. Humanity doesn't even have a moral compass without God.
Also, God's righteous judgment makes him look bad? We can't alter our doctrines to cater to the shifting standards
of the outside world. Humanity doesn't even have a moral compass without God.
Eternal conscious torment isn’t the orthodox view of the fate of the unsaved. That’s why I said what I said with confidence. The ECT doctrine didn’t appear in Christianity until around the 2nd century.
I am not telling you what to believe, but I am sharing with others what the Bible teaches to anyone interested.
Early church thought on the mortality of the human soul and fate of the unsaved was split then, too. However, conditional immortality or “annihilationism”, which is a term i don’t prefer, has been around since the beginning. That’s provable.
I am not telling you what to believe, but I am sharing with others what the Bible teaches to anyone interested.
Early church thought on the mortality of the human soul and fate of the unsaved was split then, too. However, conditional immortality or “annihilationism”, which is a term i don’t prefer, has been around since the beginning. That’s provable.