And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[FreeGrace2]

Let’s just ask it plainly:

Those who do not believe in Christ live forever or not? Yes or no.

NO. They DIE forever. The meaning of death is basically a separation.

Physical death is separation of soul and body. James 2:26.
Spritual death is separation of the human and God.
Temporal death is separation of fellowship between God and man. Psa 66:18

So, souls in the LOF will experience an everlasting contempt and their punishment is everlasting. They WILL experience all that, which will be never ending.

Will they consider themselves alive? Or living? Of course not. Remember that for unbelievers, the LOF will be "blackest darkness".

2 Pet 2:17 - These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them.

Jude 1:13 - They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Who cares if there will be "blackest darkness" for souls that no longer exist. They will experience NOTHING. Yet the Bible speaks of "blackest darkness" for them forever.

All you do is reject what the Word of God says. Because you don't like what God will do to unbelievers.

But Jesus taught that the LOF will be "more bearable" for some than for others, which will be "less bearable".

So there will be degrees of bearableness or tolerableness.

If that does't help you understand, you are beyond help.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If there was an example of the “eternal punishment” being eternal torment for all the the unsaved people then I would agree quickly.

How can there be an example to point to, since this is all just future prophecy at the moment?

But, you DO have the Bible, which prophesies all this. So your claim is empty.

You need to show that the eternal punishment is eternal torture for everyone who is unsaved.

"torture"? The Bible never says torture. It speaks of eternal contempt, punishment, blackest darkness, torment. Let's not make up words that the Bible doesn't use.

There isn’t a doctrine for that in the Bible.

Right, there isn't a doctrine for torture in the Bible. So what?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jackson123 said:
yes but in hell

Christ said only those who believe in Him live forever. You’re saying those in hell live forever. You’re wrong.

It's just a minor point. They will EXIST forever. Call it whatever you want.

Again, there will be eternal torment, punishment, contempt, and blackest darkness.

I say unbelievers will EXIST forever in those states. That is clear from the Bible.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

John was in torment while he waited for news of his missing daughter.

No one had to poke hypothetical John with a trident or pour brimstone on him to make him suffer.
He was in torment of the soul.

 

[Amanuensis]

I’m agreeing with what the Bible does not say. You’re saying the Bible says something that it clearly doesn’t. That’s a big difference. I’m not adding anything to or taking anything away from the Bible.

Rev 20 says that devil, false prophet, and beast are cast into the Lake of fire where they are in torment day and night forever.
Then others are cast into the Lake of Fire.

The text does not need to say that the others will be in torment day and night forever because that was stated when the first occupants were cast in and the reader understands what happens to the others who get cast in,

If you insist on saying that the others are NOT in torment day and night forever because the statement is not repeated again then you are adding this to scripture because it does not make the statement that they are NOT tormented day and night forever.,

Therefore by your own rules you cannot say that they are NOT tormented day and night forever because that statement is not made or even hinted at. Normal people would not even assume such a thing. Logic suggests they are tormented day and night forever and ever since this was said of the first occupants.

Without a specific statement saying that the others do NOT suffer torment day and night forever you have no right to add that to the scriptures. Your rules.

 

[Amanuensis]

YES, that is exactly what I am saying.


THE PATH IS NARROW. What is written is TRUTH. What isn't, isn't.

SO

What is it we can KNOW AND CAN TEACH?

They go into the lake of fire.

Can we teach anything OTHER THAN THAT?

No, we can not.

WHY NOT?

Because it isn't written, IT IS CONJECTURE, and every time ANY MAN brings CONJECTURE into the words of GOD,

the narrow path is made WIDER. Cant say 'more truth' is found because the ONLY TRUTH we can depend on is what is written. IT IS ALL we have that is PURE. WE are NOT ALLOWED to ADD nor subtract nor twist nor teach DOCTRINES that we don't find taught in the words of GOD. Every single time someone does, it CREATES A FALSE FOUNDATION for someone else to come along and build on. Hence the divisions in the Body of Christ.

When none of what is written is taken as truth and it all becomes 'HATH GOD SAID' and/or 'what it really means' we are all in trouble.


So, again, yes, I believe GOD IS MOST SPECIFIC and is most specific FOR A REASON. IF everyone took what is written as GODS HONEST TRUTH, there would be NO DIVISION. ALL division come FROM MANS WISDOM being place ABOVE what is written, to explain that what hasn't been given, rendering what would have been given no place to go.


IF GOD TRUTH was that souls would be in conscious torment forever in the LOF, that is exactly what God would have had written. If INDEED, the souls that rejected God went into the LOF and were consumed and their smoke went up, that is what God would have had written, and He did.


Death of a BODY AND SOUL is ceasing to exist, not living on in anyway.


Can there be souls burning FOREVER in the lake of fire be a TRUTH and these words remain true?

Isaiah 65:14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

Isaiah 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Isaiah 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

If the statement that they will be in torment day and night forever and ever is said about the first occupants thrown into the Lake of Fire it is logical that the others who are cast in later will be in torment day and and night forever and ever.

But if you want to insist that the statement be repeated you must play by those same rules and admit that it does not say that those other occupants DO NOT suffer torment day and night forever.

You have to leave it at "they get cast into the Lake of Fire." The minute you say they do NOT suffer torment day and night forever you have added to the text. Your rules.

If you say that "because it does not say they do, then they don't," that is not even logical.

I could say, and be much more logical, "If it does not say that they DON"T then they do."

Sometimes explaining the obvious exposes the belligerent and impetuous.

 

[Runningman]

Rev 20 says that devil, false prophet, and beast are cast into the Lake of fire where they are in torment day and night forever.
Then others are cast into the Lake of Fire.

The text does not need to say that the others will be in torment day and night forever because that was stated when the first occupants were cast in and the reader understands what happens to the others who get cast in,

If you insist on saying that the others are NOT in torment day and night forever because the statement is not repeated again then you are adding this to scripture because it does not make the statement that they are NOT tormented day and night forever.,

Therefore by your own rules you cannot say that they are NOT tormented day and night forever because that statement is not made or even hinted at. Normal people would not even assume such a thing. Logic suggests they are tormented day and night forever and ever since this was said of the first occupants.

Without a specific statement saying that the others do NOT suffer torment day and night forever you have no right to add that to the scriptures. Your rules.

You seem desperate to catch me in some sort of logical error and twist my words. You even created a fantasy world in which you can create a make-believe scenario where suddenly a judgement that applies to three people now applies anyone else too. Sorry (not sorry) but you’re not fooling anyone here.

The resurrected to judgement are thrown into the lake of fire for a second death, not eternal torment, and I agree with that.

Since you read Revelation 20, you don’t have an excuse for missing that point. It says the devil, beast, and false prophet are tormented forever not everyone.

 

[Simona1988]

The resurrected to judgement are thrown into the lake of fire for a second death, not eternal torment, and I agree with that.

second death = eternal torment

The death (separation of God) those in hell experience is conscious. When the Kingdom of God comes, we will be in eternity. We will be given knew bodies: those who are saved will be clothed in Christ, and the unsaved will be naked (whithout glory), they are shadows of themselves, of what they could have been, but chose not to be by rejecting God.

 

[Runningman]

second death = eternal torment

The death (separation of God) those in hell experience is conscious. When the Kingdom of God comes, we will be in eternity. We will be given knew bodies: those who are saved will be clothed in Christ, and the unsaved will be naked (whithout glory), they are shadows of themselves, of what they could have been, but chose not to be by rejecting God.

I have heard that perspective before since it’s common in the church, but I can’t find it in the Bible.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and just ask you. Where does the Bible define death as being separated from God?

 

[Simona1988]

It’s not written black on white.

Jesus Christ talks about the second death when he says that we shan’t be afraid of those who can kill the body, but rather fear those who can kill both the body and the soul and throw them into the lake of fire. Revelations 2, 11 mentions it too. In Revelations 20, 10 we read that satan, the demons and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

You seem desperate to catch me in some sort of logical error and twist my words. You even created a fantasy world in which you can create a make-believe scenario where suddenly a judgement that applies to three people now applies anyone else too. Sorry (not sorry) but you’re not fooling anyone here.

The resurrected to judgement are thrown into the lake of fire for a second death, not eternal torment, and I agree with that.

Since you read Revelation 20, you don’t have an excuse for missing that point. It says the devil, beast, and false prophet are tormented forever not everyone.

You either can't or won't comprehend the supernatural. Perhaps that is something you've always struggled with but your
words haven't been twisted. You keep denying the obvious. The Rev 20 verse doesn't need that much explaining. Most understand it immediately. Because you insist on changing the meaning to suit yourself, people are explaining to you.
You are deliberately complicating basic things.

 

[Runningman]

It’s not written black on white.

Agreed. I can’t even find it inferred or able to be interpreted from any passage either.

What I see from Genesis is actually the opposite. God told them the day they eat the fruit they’d die. Guess what? They died that day and God didn’t leave them.

Jesus Christ talks about the second death when he says that we shan’t be afraid of those who can kill the body, but rather fear those who can kill both the body and the soul and throw them into the lake of fire.

Amen.

Revelations 2, 11 mentions it too. In Revelations 20, 10 we read that satan, the demons and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

What happens to the devil, beast, and false prophet is not the second death. Remember, Jesus said we should fear God because He is able to destroy soul and body in hell. Destruction is death.

 

[Runningman]

You either can't or won't comprehend the supernatural.Perhaps that is something you've always struggled with but your words haven't been twisted. You keep denying the obvious. The Rev 20 verse doesn't need that much explaining. Most understand it immediately. Because you insist on changing the meaning to suit yourself, people are explaining to you.
You are deliberately complicating basic things.

You speak as if you’re in a position of authority, but the Bible doesn’t even say what you’re saying it does. That’s a big credibility problem for you. That makes me the teacher here. You’d do well to start learning a thing or two from what I’m saying.

 

[Gideon300]

How many times have we heard 'those who are not saved' will suffer ETERNAL TORMENT in the lake of fire? Would you believe that is NOT WRITTEN anywhere? I remember the first time I found out, I WAS angry, upset, incensed. Even people who know NOTHING else, seem to all know that. I was about to learn yet ANOTHER lesson...that 'meat' is so hard to chew sometimes especially when all you know is milk.


Rev 20:10 tells us

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hopefully all can agree what we read here is

The Devil has been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

the lake of fire and brimstone is where the false prophet and the beast were cast.

AND THE DEVIL shall be tormented forever,


Do we know anything else from what is written here? I don't, do you?


When we began to learn the words of God we learned,

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

the wicked PERISH, by being consumed, turned into smoke, ascend up and away

No mention of eternal suffering in the lake of fire.

SO WHERE did it come from?

It didn't come from here
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

IN the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels, WOULD REQUIRE THEY BE WATCHED FOREVER, if indeed they were to NOT BE CONSUMED but again

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


WE know from the PSALM that the wicked perish BY BEING consumed into smoke. Here AGAIN, we are told THE SMOKE of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Is there ANY CONSCIOUSNESS IN SMOKE? No.


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


So we see SPECIFICALLY who 'for ever and ever, day and night' is referring to. If we go past this and APPLY it to souls, IS THAT GODS TRUTH or our own?

I believe it would be our own because when you combine that information with

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.



Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


I can't find a single verse that states souls themselves will be tormented, just the smoke left from the consuming of them, which ascends up forever.

Have I missed any important SCRIPTURES, anything WRITTEN that changes any of this THAT isn't just conjecture or assumption?

God has one test for all mankind: are you alive or dead? If you are not born again, you are dead in trespass and sin. And that is by choice. God's word could not be clearer.

John 3: (the bit that few like to consider)

19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Hebrews 9:
27 Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.…

Many is not all. Unbelievers are not eagerly awaiting Jesus. Most of them don't believe that He is returning.

1 John 4:17

In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

How can an unbeliever, who hates God, have confidence on judgement day?

Ephesians 2:

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.…

Unbelievers are conformed to the ways of the world and are controlled by Satan. (1 John 5:19).

I don't know about you, but I would not want a dead person in my home. Neither does God.

 

[Gideon300]

Agreed. I can’t even find it inferred or able to be interpreted from any passage either.

What I see from Genesis is actually the opposite. God told them the day they eat the fruit they’d die. Guess what? They died that day and God didn’t leave them.

Adam and Eve left God. They hid from Him. Why would they not continue to hide for eternity? Romans 1 traces the decline of the human race, who rejected God even when they knew Him.

Romans 1
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images of mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.


Amen.



What happens to the devil, beast, and false prophet is not the second death. Remember, Jesus said we should fear God because He is able to destroy soul and body in hell. Destruction is death.

 

[Runningman]

Adam and Eve left God. They hid from Him. Why would they not continue to hide for eternity? Romans 1 traces the decline of the human race, who rejected God even when they knew Him.

Let’s be clear here. Adam and Eve hid in the garden among the trees. That isn’t what death is.

Someone said to me that death is separation from God and yes the eternal torment doctrine requires death not be literal in the Bible. If death is literal then the whole eternal torment doctrine falls apart.

Again, there’s nothing about death being a separation from God in the Bible. However, if you or anyone has proof to the contrary I’m interested.

 

[Simona1988]

Agreed. I can’t even find it inferred or able to be interpreted from any passage either.

What I see from Genesis is actually the opposite. God told them the day they eat the fruit they’d die. Guess what? They died that day and God didn’t leave them.

The phrase I put in bold is not true.

They did not die of a physical death in the very next moment, they actually got to live a lot of years on earth, but separated from God (spiritual death): they used to live in the garden Eden and after their sin, they have been chased out of heaven (being chased out of Eden means being separated from God). So, the first death Adam and Eve experienced, was not the physical one, but the spiritual one. After a couple of years, during which Adam and Eve had a lot of sons and daughters, they suffered of the physical death, too. Death is the consequence of sin. God is life; death and life cannot coexist. God incarnated in order to reverse what man has done to himself: spiritual and physical death. Just as Adam died first of a spiritual death, so is the new man in Christ experiencing first a spiritual resurrection. Than his body dies and, at the second coming of Christ man will experience the complete resurrection: that of the body too.

There are three kinds of death in the Bible: spiritual, physical, and the second death (eternal torment). Adam and Eve experienced death in the following order: first spiritual, then physical. They did not experience what Revelations calls 'the second death', which is ultimate and irreversible. The first two kinds of death (spiritual and physical) are reversible.

What happens to the devil, beast, and false prophet is not the second death. Remember, Jesus said we should fear God because He is able to destroy soul and body in hell. Destruction is death.

... I did not invent the expression 'second death'... it's in the Bible, in the very verses about the devil, demons and false prophets being cast into the lake of fire, as a 'second death'.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Amanuensis said:
Rev 20 says that devil, false prophet, and beast are cast into the Lake of fire where they are in torment day and night forever.
Then others are cast into the Lake of Fire.

The text does not need to say that the others will be in torment day and night forever because that was stated when the first occupants were cast in and the reader understands what happens to the others who get cast in,

If you insist on saying that the others are NOT in torment day and night forever because the statement is not repeated again then you are adding this to scripture because it does not make the statement that they are NOT tormented day and night forever.,

Therefore by your own rules you cannot say that they are NOT tormented day and night forever because that statement is not made or even hinted at. Normal people would not even assume such a thing. Logic suggests they are tormented day and night forever and ever since this was said of the first occupants.

Without a specific statement saying that the others do NOT suffer torment day and night forever you have no right to add that to the scriptures. Your rules.

You seem desperate to catch me in some sort of logical error and twist my words.

There was no desperation, much less a need for it. You sunk your own boat by your own words, as Amanuensis clearly showed.

Your claim that those from the GWT judgment are NOT tormented day and night for ever and ever is your own opinion. The text does not state what you claim.

The logic is that those who follow the beast, FP and devil get the SAME punishment.

You even created a fantasy world in which you can create a make-believe scenario where suddenly a judgement that applies to three people now applies anyone else too.

You just sunk your boat again. Your comment here suggests a delusion going on in your mind. Which is why logic doesn't work with you.

Sorry (not sorry) but you’re not fooling anyone here.

You haven't fooled anyone.

The resurrected to judgement are thrown into the lake of fire for a second death, not eternal torment, and I agree with that.

The Bible doesn't say that. When serious students of the Word include Dan 12:2 and Matt 25:46, it is BEYOND OBVIOUS that their punishment will be day and night, for ever and ever. But you just keep ignoring those 2 verses, which refer to the GWT judgment.

Since you read Revelation 20, you don’t have an excuse for missing that point. It says the devil, beast, and false prophet are tormented forever not everyone.

You are deceiving yourself now. Include Dan 12:2 and Matt 25:46 and the truth is clear.

 

[Runningman]

The phrase I put in bold is not true.

They did not die of a physical death in the very next moment, they actually got to live a lot of years on earth, but separated from God (spiritual death): they used to live in the garden Eden and after their sin

Agreed they didn’t die physically, they died spiritually.

Genesis 2:17
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

they have been chased out of heaven (being chased out of Eden means being separated from God). So, the first death Adam and Eve experienced, was not the physical one, but the spiritual one.

God continued interacting with Adam, Eve, and their descendants outside of the garden. So spiritual death isn’t separation from God.

There are three kinds of death in the Bible: spiritual, physical, and the second death (eternal torment). Adam and Eve experienced death in the following order: first spiritual, then physical. They did not experience what Revelations calls 'the second death', which is ultimate and irreversible. The first two kinds of death (spiritual and physical) are reversible.

The second death isn’t eternal torment. It’s an eternal punishment. Death is permanent and eternal. It’s the exact opposite of eternal life.

 

[Simona1988]

1. God interacted with Adam and Eve when they were in the garden of Eden (paradise on earth, somewhere in Irak)).
After their sin they have been chased from Eden, sin and death contaminated the creation and the humans, Eden had been destroyed and this is how the human drama begins. God interacts, indeed, with his prophets but even they can not escape the horrible consequence of the sin of their protoparents. With the exception of Elijah, who is lifted up to the sky, all the others die. This death will be transformed into passage (pascha) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

2. As for eternal torment, I put the sign "=" between torment and punishment. Death is permanent, eternal and conscious (the worm that never sleeps), the exact opposite of eternal life (communion with God).


Death is understood as absence of Life, just as darkness is absence of Light.

When Adam sinned, God asked "Where are you?". God didn't asked for Adam' spacial location, but for his placement in relation with Himself, who is Life and Light.