And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Wow, now you are beyond ridiculous. The "no pain or tears in the NE" doesn't apply to the LOF, which isn't even close to the NE.

This should be interesting. Where is the lake of fire according to Isaiah 66 and Revelation 21?

Actually, the Bible doesn't tell us.

Revelation 21:1,8
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

8But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”

Well? Where is that located? As I said, the Bible doesn't locate it.

Isaiah 66:22-24
22“For just as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, “so your descendants and your name will endure.
23From one New Moon to another
and from one Sabbath to another,
all mankind will come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.
24“As they go forth, they will see the corpses of the men who have rebelled against Me; for their worm will never die,
their fire will never be quenched, and they will be a horror to all mankind.”

Ditto here too.

Amazing. You make wild claims and even quote Scripture, which doesn't support your claims.

So, where do you think the LOF will be located? Neither passage says where it is.

 

[Jackson123]

“To my knowledge, we only have time to decide while we physically life, wether accept Christ or not, not after die”

“who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick ( living ) and the dead.

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭4:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened ( made alive ) by the Spirit:

by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they had been dead since Noah’s day Jesus went and preached the gospel to all who had died before he came into the world

have you ever noticed this and how these would have had to accept the gospel ?

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they had to have been dead they were in the grave , and they had to hear the gospel because they rose from the dead


I’m just saying there’s a lot of possibilities and Gods ways don’t end when a persons body dies

“to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh,

that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭5:5‬ ‭

remember Jesus went to preach to spirits in prison after his flesh died ?

“put to death in the flesh, but quickened ( made alive ) by the Spirit:

by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah”

oir flesh can’t be saved oir spirit can be saved we can clearly see Jesus did preach the gospel to the dead so why shouldn’t we consider the possibility that he still does preach To people who didn’t hear the gospel in life ?

Only to people that die on the flood of Noah era

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Only to people that die on the flood of Noah era

brother Jesus is the only way for anyone to be saved whether they lived in Noah’s day and refused the word and perished and remained in a spiritual prison after death , or if one lived under Moses law generations later and refused the word and perished under the curse of death in the law thier spirit sti went into the afterlife’s prison or places of torment or rest after death “ spiritual sleep with the body “for those who’d been faithful


Those who had been faithful from the law forward who had slept in the earth , rose because Jesus died and by the spirit ent to preach the gospel to the dead as he had the living before he died

the result is this

“And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:51-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

it is sown a natural body;

it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, ( death )

and there is a spiritual body.”( life )
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die,

but after this the judgment:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Then shall the dust ( natural body) return to the dust as it was:

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The reason I’m quoting these is the understanding that our body of flesh is already appointed to die , to perish and return to the dust it came from

but the living spirit inside of our body , is not going to die with the flesh and become dust , it’s going to return to God for judgement of our estate upon earth while we lived in our body

my point is Muslim kid that has never been allowed to hear about Jesus or a kid in secular and communist China requiring worship of ccp, who has never been allowed to hear the gospel and make a decision all of these folks through all time who never were presented with this choice in life ( like those in Noah’s day , like the ot saints who saw this beforehand far away and believed and foretold ) or like those in the world who lived and died since then in times and places where they weren’t allowed to hear the gospel , presently like China , north Korea , Iran , ( any other Muslim or Buddhist or whatever religion rules the country ) those folks have sincerely never had the choice many of the free world have had never been presented with the message of Gods kingdom that saves souls from sin and death


Christ isnt limited by death like man is , he preached the gospel to the living foret and then the dead also and those who accepted came out of thier graves

It’s a good news fruit brother the messiah came and went into death for us breaking its bonds upon our souls even those who died before he came and realized his predetermined will that Christ should die nd be raised and be the judge who gives life to mankind life to the dead and living

Brother consider that this changes our perspective about death and includes all who die the first death whether they heard his voice in life or death because he is lord of all both the living and the dead

Before Christ came died and rose from dead in victory for man

“I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The fruits of Christs death and resurrection

“For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

…Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24-25, 27-

After Jesus died and preached the gospel in death and rose , this happened

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:51-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you have to hear the words of Christ in order to reject or accept them in thinking it’s possible God has covered even those who never hear the gospel in life and choose, just saying there’s a lot of scripture to suggest that one can hear the gospel even in death of they didn’t in life , for example those in Noah’s day

 

[Jackson123]

brother Jesus is the only way for anyone to be saved whether they lived in Noah’s day and refused the word and perished and remained in a spiritual prison after death , or if one lived under Moses law generations later and refused the word and perished under the curse of death in the law thier spirit sti went into the afterlife’s prison or places of torment or rest after death “ spiritual sleep with the body “for those who’d been faithful


Those who had been faithful from the law forward who had slept in the earth , rose because Jesus died and by the spirit ent to preach the gospel to the dead as he had the living before he died

the result is this

“And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:51-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

it is sown a natural body;

it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, ( death )

and there is a spiritual body.”( life )
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die,

but after this the judgment:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Then shall the dust ( natural body) return to the dust as it was:

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The reason I’m quoting these is the understanding that our body of flesh is already appointed to die , to perish and return to the dust it came from

but the living spirit inside of our body , is not going to die with the flesh and become dust , it’s going to return to God for judgement of our estate upon earth while we lived in our body

my point is Muslim kid that has never been allowed to hear about Jesus or a kid in secular and communist China requiring worship of ccp, who has never been allowed to hear the gospel and make a decision all of these folks through all time who never were presented with this choice in life ( like those in Noah’s day , like the ot saints who saw this beforehand far away and believed and foretold ) or like those in the world who lived and died since then in times and places where they weren’t allowed to hear the gospel , presently like China , north Korea , Iran , ( any other Muslim or Buddhist or whatever religion rules the country ) those folks have sincerely never had the choice many of the free world have had never been presented with the message of Gods kingdom that saves souls from sin and death


Christ isnt limited by death like man is , he preached the gospel to the living foret and then the dead also and those who accepted came out of thier graves

It’s a good news fruit brother the messiah came and went into death for us breaking its bonds upon our souls even those who died before he came and realized his predetermined will that Christ should die nd be raised and be the judge who gives life to mankind life to the dead and living

Brother consider that this changes our perspective about death and includes all who die the first death whether they heard his voice in life or death because he is lord of all both the living and the dead

Before Christ came died and rose from dead in victory for man

“I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The fruits of Christs death and resurrection

“For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

…Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24-25, 27-

After Jesus died and preached the gospel in death and rose , this happened

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:51-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you have to hear the words of Christ in order to reject or accept them in thinking it’s possible God has covered even those who never hear the gospel in life and choose, just saying there’s a lot of scripture to suggest that one can hear the gospel even in death of they didn’t in life , for example those in Noah’s day

thank for you perspective

so you believe Jesus still preach to the death that never hear the gospel during their life time, not all the death

it may, I am not sure

all I know is

18 For Christ also suffered oncefor sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

these verse seem only to the death in Noah flood time

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

This only sounds like a bitter soul with no hope for eternal life. Sad really, considering it's like that he had an eternity of suffering preached at him his entire life by multitudes of misguided people, and he was smart enough, and I would go as far to say even given an inherent, although suppressed and hidden, knowledge not to believe it.

It's a very common view among atheists. Ceasing to exist is what they expect.
Preaching a false gospel to people with that world view is a mistake. They need the biblical truth, not a cult scam.

 

[Magenta]

Huh? What verse did you think I was referencing?

How is it that you missed the FACT that I gave the proper verse citation?

OK, this isn't hard to understand. Are shame and contempt experienced, or not? yes or no.

Apply your standard to yourself. Does it say that or not? No, it does not. Holding to a double standard when it suits you, eh?

You're being a bit too picky. And you didn't answer my question.

Oh. My. God. Your hypocrisy is sickening.

And why should I answer to your irrational suppositions of what I believe? That is no way to have a discussion.

 

[Runningman]

It's a very common view among atheists. Ceasing to exist is what they expect.
Preaching a false gospel to people with that world view is a mistake. They need the biblical truth, not a cult scam.

John 3:16 says that those who don’t believe in God’s Son will perish. They’ll be utterly destroyed. Sadly, the atheists are correct on this particular point (and only this one point) and the majority of the church is wrong.

It’s normally the people who have been indoctrinated into a belief system that are unable to understand the finer details of the Bible. Those with no presuppositions come with a child’s mind and just accept the word as it is.

The problem is that those in the church often aggressively proselytize with false doctrines and have created chaos and fear for generations.

Many parallels between the modern church and the Pharisees. Jesus said they would travel to win a single convert, but made them into a child of hell.

It’s actually no small thing to distort the word of God. Peter said that those who distort the scripture and Paul’s letters were headed for destruction. Not many people should be teachers, there’s a huge responsibility to really understand what you’re taking about.

If you’re going around believing that those who preach conditional immortality are cultists you better be very secure in this. In other words, you better have some scripture to back it up.

Dozens of pages later you haven’t produced a single verse that plainly says all of the unsaved will go to eternal conscious torment. That’s a major problem for you.

This isn’t satisfying, but you actually need to repent and I mean that with a tender heart. I just want the best for you and everyone here. I only pray somehow you’d hear this.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Huh? What verse did you think I was referencing?

How is it that you missed the FACT that I gave the proper verse citation?

OK, what WAS it?

Apply your standard to yourself. Does it say that or not?

Does what say that or not? Please continue with context, ok?

No, it does not.

I don't know. I need context.

Holding to a double standard when it suits you, eh?

You may speculate all you want. I need context.

Oh. My. God.

Stop swearing.

Your hypocrisy is sickening.

Your swearing is sickening.

And why should I answer to your irrational suppositions of what I believe?

All my questions are based on what the poster claims/says/speculates, etc. You may call them whatever you like.

That is no way to have a discussion.

Right. I need context, ok?

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 3:16 says that those who don’t believe in God’s Son will perish. They’ll be utterly destroyed.

The Greek word doesn't ONLY mean "utterly destroy", so get off your horse, ok? It it used mostly for physical death. Context proves that.

Sadly, the atheists are correct on this particular point (and only this one point) and the majority of the church is wrong.

By all means, join up with the atheists then.

It’s normally the people who have been indoctrinated into a belief system that are unable to understand the finer details of the Bible.

This is just arrogance.

Those with no presuppositions come with a child’s mind and just accept the word as it is.

Ah, but you DID come with presuppositions. You believe that ECT is CRUEL. That is a supposition. Maudlin, in fact.

The problem is that those in the church often aggressively proselytize with false doctrines and have created chaos and fear for generations.

Why don't you leave "the church" (whatever tha means to you) out of this. I'm sure those who also believe that unbelievers will have an eternity of suffering come from many different church backgrounds. So let it go. Just another of your red herrings.

Many parallels between the modern church and the Pharisees. Jesus said they would travel to win a single convert, but made them into a child of hell.

Ridiculous. You seem blissfully unaware of what the "modern church" even is. The mainline protestant churches all left the straight and narrow decades ago and fell for Satan's lies about social justice, and all that left wing garbage. So don't even bring them up. It is totally irrelevant.

It’s actually no small thing to distort the word of God.

I'm sure everyone would agree with that.

Peter said that those who distort the scripture and Paul’s letters were headed for destruction.

So, by that, you must mean they will "cease to exist" huh.

Not many people should be teachers, there’s a huge responsibility to really understand what you’re taking about.

You sure need more schooling.

If you’re going around believing that those who preach conditional immortality are cultists you better be very secure in this. In other words, you better have some scripture to back it up.

What do you mean by "conditional immortality". I believe that all souls will exist forever. Some to eternal punishment (experienced forever) and some to eternal life.

Dozens of pages later you haven’t produced a single verse that plainly says all of the unsaved will go to eternal conscious torment. That’s a major problem for you.

Actually, you have FAILED to provide any verse that says that God WILL evaporate (pick your own word) any soul. So get off your high horse. Before you fall off and get hurt.

This isn’t satisfying, but you actually need to repent and I mean that with a tender heart.

Why should I or anyone else believe this?

I just want the best for you and everyone here. I only pray somehow you’d hear this.

Ditto here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How is it that you missed the FACT that I gave the proper verse citation?

I QUOTED the right verse. I had a typo on the citation. Not really hard to figure out.

Here is post 1071, on page 54, for all to see.

FreeGrace2 said:
unbelievers will experience eternal shame and contempt in Dan 12:12
Magenta said:
"That is not what Daniel 12:2 says."

Then I posted:
Please tell me what it says.

Here is what I read in the Bible:

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. ESV {here I quote v.2, not v.12, the TYPO}

What I see is a contrast to what will be experienced by believers and unbelievers.

The believers will experience everlasting life.

The unbelievers will experience shame and everlasting contempt.

I suppose you think the "everlasting contempt" is what the believers will have for the unbelievers.

But, how will that be possible? The "old things" will have passed away. How or why would believers have the memory of unbelievers?

Apply your standard to yourself. Does it say that or not? No, it does not. Holding to a double standard when it suits you, eh?

And then you go off on "double standard". You didn't even bother to acknowledge or address my explanation of Dan 12:2.

Oh. My. God. Your hypocrisy is sickening.

I'd say ignoring my explanation of the verse and then calling me a hypocrite is sickening.

 

[Runningman]

The Greek word doesn't ONLY mean "utterly destroy", so get off your horse, ok? It it used mostly for physical death. Context proves that.

Everyone gets a physical death eventually and isn’t common to die a first death whereby someone is “utterly destroyed.” The utterly destroyed bit, or perish, means the second death is utter destruction. It doesn’t refer to just the physical body, but to everything else too. Why would utterly destroy only mean physical death when God can destroy soul and body in hell?

By all means, join up with the atheists then.

Now you’re telling people to abandon the faith. That’s pretty bad. You should think before you speak.

Ah, but you DID come with presuppositions. You believe that ECT is CRUEL. That is a supposition. Maudlin, in fact.

Do you even know what maudlin means?

Maudlin:
self-pityingly or tearfully sentimental, often through drunkenness.

You’re basically calling me a crying drunk. Seriously that’s not appropriate so I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t call me that or anyone else here again.

Why don't you leave "the church" (whatever tha means to you) out of this. I'm sure those who also believe that unbelievers will have an eternity of suffering come from many different church backgrounds. So let it go. Just another of your red herrings.

I won’t leave the church out of this because I want to help the church correct their error.

Ridiculous. You seem blissfully unaware of what the "modern church" even is. The mainline protestant churches all left the straight and narrow decades ago and fell for Satan's lies about social justice, and all that left wing garbage. So don't even bring them up. It is totally irrelevant.

Actually an intriguing comment. What is the modern church then?

So, by that, you must mean they will "cease to exist" huh.

Yes.

You sure need more schooling.

My foundation is that while I’m alive on this earth I will be a student of the Bible. A student is always ready to learn more and if presented with facts I’ll change my perspective. I actually change fairy often depending on what I see in the Bible, but you wouldn’t know that. I’m just a crying drunk to you.

What do you mean by "conditional immortality". I believe that all souls will exist forever. Some to eternal punishment (experienced forever) and some to eternal life.

1 Tim. 6:15,16
15Which in his times he shall shew, who isthe blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Only God is immortal unless He gives immortality to those who believe in Christ.

Actually, you have FAILED to provide any verse that says that God WILL evaporate (pick your own word) any soul. So get off your high horse. Before you fall off and get hurt.

Psalm 37:20
20But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Does the fat of lambs live forever? Does it disappear like smoke when burned? That’s what happens to the wicked.

Why should I or anyone else believe this?

Your question sounds like you’re questioning why it’s necessary to repent. You don’t think confessing to God is necessary

 

[kleronomos]

kleronomos said:
"EXCELLENT, Easy fix here, please just cite the Scripture that states souls are tormented in the lake of fire for ever. Like I said, ALL I could find was where it said the DEVIL would be. Looking forward to this TRUTH you possess."

You obviously love to create red herrings to attack.

Lam 1:20 - “See, LORD, how distressed I am! I am in torment within, and in my heart I am disturbed, for I have been most rebellious. Outside, the sword bereaves; inside, there is only death.

Lam 2:11 - My eyes fail from weeping, I am in torment within ; my heart is poured out on the ground because my people are destroyed,
because children and infants faint in the streets of the city.

Proof that it is the soul that experiences torment.

And The Bible DOESN'T say that just the Devil would be tormented. He will be cast into the LOF where the beast and FP ARE, meaning STILL ARE, after 1,000 years of already being IN the LOF.

Matt 25:41 says "the devil AND his angels", which the word means "messenger", so it could refer to both the fallen angels AND all humans who have been deceived by the devil.

Is that what you believe? I am creating 'attacks'? How does posting what is written and exposing what isn't but is 'concluded' (which causes such a wideness to the whole bible since we could have MANY DIFFERENT CONCLUSIONS by many different people on this subject yet we only have WHAT IS WRITTEN once) an ATTACK?

To be clear,
I believe up until the end of the Lords Day there is torment. I believe souls do feel torment. Yet I don't believe torment proceeds past the end of this age. Torment for the sake of torment forever and ever is without reason.
I believe at the end of the GWTJ that death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
I believe that is the second death.
I do not believe that 'death' is eternal life in torment.
I believe whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is where you and I differ because I continue on the path, WHERE you choose to fall backwards.

So, I believe AFTER the GWTJ there will be

A new heaven and a new earth:

and I believe

for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away

And so I believe the LOF, having been a part of the heaven and earth that passed away HAS ALSO PASSED.

What I may or may not think the meaning of the word "FOR EVER" is, and whether it is for ever or just forever for that age, DOES NOT DICTATE how I will read what follows. WHAT IS WRITTEN will be what confirms the MEANING of it, not my knowledge nor my belief. The ONLY TRUTH that I can depend on is what is written.

and there was no more sea.

And I think, LAKE? SEA? both are water. Would that mean No sea, No lake? I don't know, but upon consideration of it,
the LOF making it past the last age is getting a MINUS POINT.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And I think, GOD DWELLING with HIS PEOPLE. Those in the LOF are NOT HIS PEOPLE. - 1 point. At this point I would think twice before teaching it, that's for sure. I may not understand, but with THE PUNISHMENT so severe, I don't think so.

So, I read on looking for evidence or confirmation in either direction. I am starting to think that word 'for ever' does not mean what some others think it means.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;

and there shall be no more death,

How does that set with DEATH AS CONSCIOUS TORMENT IN THE LAKE OF FIRE BEING PRESENT IN THE NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH AGE? -1

Though common sense tells me I have my answer, I still have this person just insisting OVER AND OVER
1. that death isn't a punishment, only torment that lasts forever is
2. and DEATH is not death at all, but instead is an immortal life in torture.

Erring on the side of caution and to be certain to give this sottish argument it's due so that anyone coming upon it will not be deceived by all the 'talk' that sounds so wise but feels so wrong, I continue on. I want to make sure EVERYONE who ever reads this will have a CLEAR understanding not only about this, but also

so they can RECOGNIZE how those who teach what is concluded OVER what is written

TREAT and attack those who don't.

A lesson on discernment almost as valuable as this one,

neither sorrow,

sorrow comes with torment that never ever ends, no matter the level of the torment. Is there any way possible the LOF can continue on with it containing all sorts of stages of torment yet not having sorrow? And if not those in the LOF what about those who are LIVING in the NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH? MAUDLIN? I know of one person who would, if indeed there were a lake of FIRE around. -1.

SINCE THE PENALTY IS SO GREAT for teaching FALSELY, I really want to be sure.

What are the chances that GOD would create for us a place too wonderful for words, and have the LOF with eternal tormented souls be a part of it? Does that sound like HEAVEN to anyone? We are not just speaking about WORDS and word definitions here, THIS IS THE REALITY THAT WE WILL SOMEDAY BE LIVING. We have to SEE the reality of a situation when we are either attacking or defending it.

nor crying,
-1


neither shall there be any more pain
-1


Isn't that the whole point of eternal torment? To MAKE THEM PAY with pain and suffering? We know that without ANY HOPE it isn't for any sort of CORRECTION. They could NEVER change, and even if they could it would never matter. They can BEG AND PLEAD FOR MERCY, but nothing would ever come of it.


for the former things are passed away.
-1

The Lake of fire, which comes at the end of the Lords Day, which comes at the end of this age, will become like everything else,

a part of the past and of the former that is passed away. How can we be sure?

IT IS WRITTEN,

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.

And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[kleronomos]

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Their have A PART, A PORTION. How can we know how much or how long A PART OF A PORTION IS?

If a dead dog knows nothing is it any great kind of a leap to say a dead soul knows nothing.

BODY AND SOUL into the LAKE OF FIRE.


Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Revelation 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

Revelation 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Revelation 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

Revelation 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

Revelation 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

Revelation 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Revelation 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[kleronomos]

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Peter 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away

1 Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

MUST BE BORN AGAIN TO RECEIVE INCORRUPTION/IMMORTALITY


1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;

neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

5356. phthora
Strong's Concordance
phthora: destruction, corruption
Original Word: φθορά, ᾶς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: phthora
Phonetic Spelling: (fthor-ah')
Definition: destruction, corruption
Usage: corruption, destruction, decay, rottenness, decomposition.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5356 phthorá (from 5351 /phtheírō) – destruction from internal corruption (deterioration, decay); "rottenness, perishableness, corruption, decay, decomposition" (Souter). See 5351 (phteírō).


861. aphtharsia ►
Strong's Concordance
aphtharsia: incorruptibility
Original Word: ἀφθαρσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: aphtharsia
Phonetic Spelling: (af-thar-see'-ah)
Definition: incorruptibility
Usage: indestructibility, incorruptibility; hence: immortality.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 861 aphtharsía – properly, no-corruption (unable to experience deterioration); incorruptibility (not perishable), i.e. lacking the very capacity to decay or constitutionally break down. See 862a (aphthartos).



THE EVIL DON'T BECOME IMMORTAL They receive their THEIR DEATH SENTENCE, take their part in the LOF where they

THEY VANISH becoming nothing - FOREVER AND EVER aka eternal punishment


IN THE NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH there is no REMEMBRANCE of them.



Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.




2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

2 Peter 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption



Psalm 112:9 He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor; his righteousness endureth for ever; his horn shall be exalted with honour.

Psalm 112:10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.


Psalm 6:1 O LORD, rebuke me not in thine anger, neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.

Psalm 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed.

Psalm 6:3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long?

Psalm 6:4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.

Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?


Psalm 34:9 O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.

Psalm 34:10 The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing.

Psalm 34:11 Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

Psalm 34:12 What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good?

Psalm 34:13 Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.

Psalm 34:14 Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.

Psalm 34:15 The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.

Psalm 34:16 The face of the LORD is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.


1 Timothy 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

 

[kleronomos]

NO ONE says unbelievers get eternal life in the LOF. So quit already. You continue to lose credibility when you create these red herrings.

YOU DO, over and over.

 

[kleronomos]

What the Bible does say is that the punishment IS eternal. That the shame and contempt IS eternal. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand what this means.

Yeah, that YOU HAVE TO BE ALIVE TO KNOW IT. YOU HAVE TO BE ALIVE TO FEEL IT. YOU HAVE TO HAVE IMMORTALITY TO KNOW AND FEEL FOREVER That is what you keep saying over and over

 

[kleronomos]

Please STOP your red herrings about everlasting conscious punishment, torment, is "eternal life". It isn't. You just have to create a red herring with which to attack. It doesn't work.

NO ONE says unbelievers get eternal life in the LOF. So quit already. You continue to lose credibility when you create these red herrings.

What the Bible does say is that the punishment IS eternal. That the shame and contempt IS eternal. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand what this means.

It means the unbeliever will spend eternity in a state of shame and contempt. No body experiences these things. Only the soul does.

The mortal resurrected body WILL DIE AGAIN when cast into the LOF. That is the SECOND death.

And, neither of you guys will address that. Because it refutes your belief.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[kleronomos]

"Annihilation has no terrors for me, because I have already tried it before I was born—a hundred million years—
and I have suffered more in an hour, in this life, than I remember to have suffered in the whole hundred million
years put together." ~Mark Twain

Ecclesiastes 1:11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

 

[kleronomos]

And again, you missed the whole point. Feelings come from the soul, NOT the body. So all mention of unbelievers refers to their body, which will die again. But their souls will experience eternal shame and contempt.

1Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

 

[Jackson123]

Ecclesiastes 1:11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

no remembrance but have pain sensor