And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Magenta]

Scripture certainly teaches that the wicked are punished eternally, but not that the wicked endure eternal punishment. The wicked suffer “eternal punishment”(Mt 25:46), “eternal judgment” (Heb 6:2) and “eternal destruction” (2 Thess 1:9) the same way the elect experience “eternal redemption” (Heb 5:9, 9:12). The elect do not undergo an eternal process of redemption. Their redemption is “eternal” in the sense that once the elect are redeemed, it is forever after. So too, the damned do not undergo an eternal process of punishment or destruction. But once they are punished and destroyed, it is forever after. Hell is eternal in consequence, not duration. The wicked are “destroyed forever” (Ps 92:7), but they are not forever being destroyed.

The Old Testament actually has a good deal to say about the ultimate destiny of those who resist God. Peter specifically cites the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah as a pattern of how God judges the wicked. The Lord turned the inhabitants of these cities “to ashes” and “condemned them to extinction” thus making “them an example of what is coming to the ungodly…” (2 Pet. 2:6). Conversely, the Lord’s rescue of Lot sets a pattern for how the Lord will “rescue the godly from trial” (2 Pet. 2:9). We thus have a precedent set in the New Testament for learning about the fate of the wicked in the Old Testament. And what we learn is that they are “condemned… to extinction.”

Note also the metaphors in Isaiah 1:38, 1:30-31, and 5:24 carefully. They denote total annihilation.

The theme that the Lord will annihilate the wicked is especially prominent in the Psalms. The Psalmist says that whereas those who take delight in the Lord shall be “like trees planted by streams of water” (1:3), the wicked shall be “like chaff that the wind drives away…the wicked will perish” (Ps. 1:4, 6). They shall be dashed “in pieces like a potter’s vessel” (2:9), torn into fragments (Ps. 50:22) and “blotted out of the book of the living…” (Ps. 69:28, cf. Deut. 29:20). Each metaphor depicts total annihilation.

Similarly, the Lord’s plan for “evildoers” is to “cut off the remembrance of them from the earth…evil brings death to the wicked” (Ps. 34:16, 21). The wicked shall be so thoroughly destroyed that they shall not even be remembered (Ps. 9:6; 34:16). In the powerful words of a later author, the wicked “shall be as though they had never been” (Obed. 16, emphasis added).

With the same force, the Psalmist proclaimed that the wicked “will soon fade like the grass, and wither like the green herb” (Ps. 37:2). They “shall be cut off…and…will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there“ (Ps. 37:9–10). While the righteous “abide forever” (37:27), “the wicked perish…like smoke they vanish away” (Ps. 37:20); they “vanish like water that runs away; like grass [they shall] be trodden down and wither”; “like the snail that dissolves into slime; like the untimely birth that never sees the sun” (Ps. 58:7–8). And again, “…transgressors shall be altogether destroyed” (Ps. 37:38, cf. vs. 34). In short, the fate of the wicked is disintegration into nothingness.

The Psalmist’s emphasis on the total destruction of the wicked has parallels throughout the Old Testament. Daniel, for example, speaks of all who shall be crushed by the rock of God’s judgment as being “broken.” They become “like the chaff of the summer threshing floor” blown away by the wind “so that not a trace of them [can] be found” (Dan. 2:35). Nahum says that in the judgment the wicked “are consumed like dry straw” (Nahum 1:10). Malachi tells us that the judgment day shall come “burning like an oven” and “all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble.” The judgment thus “shall burn them up” (Mal. 4:1). source

 

[Magenta]

Who started the body and soul having separate judgments? SERIOUSLY?

People who make things up... or, sadly, are duped by the deceptions of others.

Their position rests on the lie of Satan, and premises that are clearly against what Scripture explicitly teaches to the contrary.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Scripture certainly teaches that the wicked are punished eternally, but not that the wicked endure eternal punishment.

They mean the same thing. And Matt 25:46 uses those very words, "eternal punishment". So you are challenged to figure out what you really believe.

The wicked suffer “eternal punishment”(Mt 25:46), “eternal judgment” (Heb 6:2) and “eternal destruction” (2 Thess 1:9) the same way the elect experience “eternal redemption” (Heb 5:9, 9:12).

Parallels. The unsaved experience an eternal judgment/punishment, while the saved experience eternal life.

The elect do not undergo an eternal process of redemption.

??

Their redemption is “eternal” in the sense that once the elect are redeemed, it is forever after.

Their bodies will live forever, for sure.

So too, the damned do not undergo an eternal process of punishment or destruction.

Correct. Their bodies will be destroyed rather quickly. But since there are no verses about God giving the souls of believers immortality, there is no reason to assume that souls aren't immortal.

But once they are punished and destroyed, it is forever after.

Right. They will have no bodies forever.

Hell is eternal in consequence, not duration.

That is correct. Rev 20:11-15 says plainly that death and hell are thrown into the LOF. It is the LOF that is described as eternal.

The wicked are “destroyed forever” (Ps 92:7), but they are not forever being destroyed.

I agree. Their mortal bodies will perish rather quickly when cast into the LOF.

Note also the metaphors in Isaiah 1:38, 1:30-31, and 5:24 carefully. They denote total annihilation.

Do the texts describe souls or bodies?

The theme that the Lord will annihilate the wicked is especially prominent in the Psalms.

In David's day, the obvious context would be the death of his enemies, of which he had a lot.

With the same force, the Psalmist proclaimed that the wicked “will soon fade like the grass, and wither like the green herb” (Ps. 37:2). They “shall be cut off…and…will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there“ (Ps. 37:9–10). While the righteous “abide forever” (37:27), “the wicked perish…like smoke they vanish away” (Ps. 37:20); they “vanish like water that runs away; like grass [they shall] be trodden down and wither”; “like the snail that dissolves into slime; like the untimely birth that never sees the sun” (Ps. 58:7–8). And again, “…transgressors shall be altogether destroyed” (Ps. 37:38, cf. vs. 34). In short, the fate of the wicked is disintegration into nothingness.

Since souls are immaterial, how can you even try to apply "disintegration into nothingness"?? How does an immaterial entity disintegrate? Not even possible. Only material things can disintegrate.

The Psalmist’s emphasis on the total destruction of the wicked has parallels throughout the Old Testament.

No argument. I fully agree. But it's just not the soul in view.

Daniel, for example, speaks of all who shall be crushed by the rock of God’s judgment as being “broken.”

Physical bodies CAN be broken. How do you break the immaterial soul?

Your only defense would be a verse that teaches that God imparts immortality to the souls of believers.

However, in all the descriptions about the resurrection of believers, there is NO mention of souls at all. The entire focus is on the physical bodies being resurrected as immortal. Absolutely nothing about souls in any of those contexts.

 

[kleronomos]

People who make things up... or, sadly, are duped by the deceptions of others.

Their position rests on the lie of Satan, and premises that are clearly against what Scripture explicitly teaches to the contrary.

Still it fills me with sorrow knowing not only will there be no rewards FOR THE BELIEVER who does such but they lose so much when it could have all been for gain.

Just in case someone doesn't know what I am referring to


1 Corinthians 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

(WORKS SERVE - ATION as opposed to salvation)

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

1 Corinthians 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;

1 Corinthians 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;

1 Corinthians 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Still it fills me with sorrow knowing not only will there be no rewards FOR THE BELIEVER who does such but they lose so much when it could have all been for gain.

Just in case someone doesn't know what I am referring to


1 Corinthians 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

(WORKS SERVE - ATION as opposed to salvation)

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

1 Corinthians 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;

1 Corinthians 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;

1 Corinthians 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

The verse that needs to be understood is 1 Tim 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Just what are the "things taught by demons"? Some translations have "doctrines of demons". So, what is that? It's anything that opposes the truths of God's Word.

In every doctrinal debate, whether eternal security vs OSNAS, or election to salvation vs service, both sides will claim the truth is on their side. Yet, Scripture isn't that muddy, so that 2 opposing ideas can be defended from the Bible.

Fortunately, the mortality vs immortality of all souls isn't an essential doctrine, one that must be believed to be saved.

The Berean Bible study method involves finding verses that SAY what you believe, or what someone else says, which was Paul in the case of the Bereans.

When the Berean Bible study method is applied, we find no verses that say that souls are immortal. This is especially important when considering the resurrection of believers, when their souls are united with their resurrected AND imperishable (immortal) bodies. There is no mention of souls in the resurrection passages. Hm.

Further, since all unbelievers will be resurrected as well, but NOT in immortal bodies, and they will be cast into the LOF after the GWT judgment, the LOF is also called the second death, which will obviously occur when the mortal body is cast into the LOF.

So, everyone is entitled to be convinced of what they believe. Unfortunately, the devil is a master deceiver and prowls around seeking whom he may devour. He does this by deceiving believers into false doctrines, which divides the body of Christ.

I am convinced that all souls are immortal, and therefore, will experience an eternal suffering, for these reasons:

1. No mention of God imparting immortality to the souls of believers at any point, whether in time or in eternity.
2. No mention of souls ceasing to exist. Only that God is able to destroy souls.
3. All texts describing the resurrection of believers focuses only on the body becoming immortal.
4. The words "perish" and "destroy" are commonly used in texts where the subject is capital punishment for specific sins. Not about the immaterial souls ceasing to exist.

But to each, his own. Believers should not hold ill will towards those they disagree with. While I have been and will continue to be charged with ill will towards those who don't believe all souls are immortal, I don't take any of this personally. I will fight for what I read in Scripture, til my death. But I don't either hate or even dislike them. I just disagree with them. And telling them that their view is driven by an excessive emotional sensitivity, which I call maudlin sentimentality, doesn't mean I hold ill will. It's just an observation, not an emotional view.

What I do hate is a false doctrine, one that can't be found in Scripture, AKA the Berean Bible study method.

I search the Scriptures daily to see if what fill in the blank says.

 

[Runningman]

The verse that needs to be understood is 1 Tim 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Just what are the "things taught by demons"? Some translations have "doctrines of demons". So, what is that? It's anything that opposes the truths of God's Word.

In every doctrinal debate, whether eternal security vs OSNAS, or election to salvation vs service, both sides will claim the truth is on their side. Yet, Scripture isn't that muddy, so that 2 opposing ideas can be defended from the Bible.

Fortunately, the mortality vs immortality of all souls isn't an essential doctrine, one that must be believed to be saved.

The Berean Bible study method involves finding verses that SAY what you believe, or what someone else says, which was Paul in the case of the Bereans.

When the Berean Bible study method is applied, we find no verses that say that souls are immortal. This is especially important when considering the resurrection of believers, when their souls are united with their resurrected AND imperishable (immortal) bodies. There is no mention of souls in the resurrection passages. Hm.

Further, since all unbelievers will be resurrected as well, but NOT in immortal bodies, and they will be cast into the LOF after the GWT judgment, the LOF is also called the second death, which will obviously occur when the mortal body is cast into the LOF.

So, everyone is entitled to be convinced of what they believe. Unfortunately, the devil is a master deceiver and prowls around seeking whom he may devour. He does this by deceiving believers into false doctrines, which divides the body of Christ.

I am convinced that all souls are immortal, and therefore, will experience an eternal suffering, for these reasons:

1. No mention of God imparting immortality to the souls of believers at any point, whether in time or in eternity.
2. No mention of souls ceasing to exist. Only that God is able to destroy souls.
3. All texts describing the resurrection of believers focuses only on the body becoming immortal.
4. The words "perish" and "destroy" are commonly used in texts where the subject is capital punishment for specific sins. Not about the immaterial souls ceasing to exist.

But to each, his own. Believers should not hold ill will towards those they disagree with. While I have been and will continue to be charged with ill will towards those who don't believe all souls are immortal, I don't take any of this personally. I will fight for what I read in Scripture, til my death. But I don't either hate or even dislike them. I just disagree with them. And telling them that their view is driven by an excessive emotional sensitivity, which I call maudlin sentimentality, doesn't mean I hold ill will. It's just an observation, not an emotional view.

What I do hate is a false doctrine, one that can't be found in Scripture, AKA the Berean Bible study method.

I search the Scriptures daily to see if what fill in the blank says.

You don’t seem to understand what a person is. They’re a body, soul, and spirit. The scenario you invented where the saved person receives a resurrected physical body, but no soul and spirit is not sound Bible.

Plainly you don’t have any verses that say there is eternal torment for all of the unsaved or that the resurrection only involves a physical body. Jesus wasn’t resurrected as a hollow shell then neither will we be. We have a pretense and a precedent for everything we’ve been saying. That’s sound Bible.

Know the difference for your sake and those who may make the terrible mistake of believing something you say.

You’re just making things up which is unwise and dangerous.

 

[Runningman]

The verse that needs to be understood is 1 Tim 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Just what are the "things taught by demons"? Some translations have "doctrines of demons". So, what is that? It's anything that opposes the truths of God's Word.

In every doctrinal debate, whether eternal security vs OSNAS, or election to salvation vs service, both sides will claim the truth is on their side. Yet, Scripture isn't that muddy, so that 2 opposing ideas can be defended from the Bible.

Fortunately, the mortality vs immortality of all souls isn't an essential doctrine, one that must be believed to be saved.

The Berean Bible study method involves finding verses that SAY what you believe, or what someone else says, which was Paul in the case of the Bereans.

When the Berean Bible study method is applied, we find no verses that say that souls are immortal. This is especially important when considering the resurrection of believers, when their souls are united with their resurrected AND imperishable (immortal) bodies. There is no mention of souls in the resurrection passages. Hm.

Further, since all unbelievers will be resurrected as well, but NOT in immortal bodies, and they will be cast into the LOF after the GWT judgment, the LOF is also called the second death, which will obviously occur when the mortal body is cast into the LOF.

So, everyone is entitled to be convinced of what they believe. Unfortunately, the devil is a master deceiver and prowls around seeking whom he may devour. He does this by deceiving believers into false doctrines, which divides the body of Christ.

I am convinced that all souls are immortal, and therefore, will experience an eternal suffering, for these reasons:

1. No mention of God imparting immortality to the souls of believers at any point, whether in time or in eternity.
2. No mention of souls ceasing to exist. Only that God is able to destroy souls.
3. All texts describing the resurrection of believers focuses only on the body becoming immortal.
4. The words "perish" and "destroy" are commonly used in texts where the subject is capital punishment for specific sins. Not about the immaterial souls ceasing to exist.

But to each, his own. Believers should not hold ill will towards those they disagree with. While I have been and will continue to be charged with ill will towards those who don't believe all souls are immortal, I don't take any of this personally. I will fight for what I read in Scripture, til my death. But I don't either hate or even dislike them. I just disagree with them. And telling them that their view is driven by an excessive emotional sensitivity, which I call maudlin sentimentality, doesn't mean I hold ill will. It's just an observation, not an emotional view.

What I do hate is a false doctrine, one that can't be found in Scripture, AKA the Berean Bible study method.

I search the Scriptures daily to see if what fill in the blank says.

Souls in heaven resurrected with a physical body for the MK:

Revelation 20:4-6
4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

This dashes to smithereens any hope you had of sowing seeds of doubt regarding this.

 

[kleronomos]

You don’t seem to understand what a person is. They’re a body, soul, and spirit. The scenario you invented where the saved person receives a resurrected physical body, but no soul and spirit is not sound Bible.

Plainly you don’t have any verses that say there is eternal torment for all of the unsaved or that the resurrection only involves a physical body. Jesus wasn’t resurrected as a hollow shell then neither will we be. We have a pretense and a precedent for everything we’ve been saying. That’s sound Bible.

Know the difference for your sake and those who may make the terrible mistake of believing something you say.

You’re just making things up which is unwise and dangerous.

Soulless eternal bodies and bodyless eternal souls??? Just wanted to say Thank you again for your patience endurance in the face of all this. Good job in keeping it all straight too.

 

[kleronomos]

Souls in heaven resurrected with a physical body for the MK:

Revelation 20:4-6
4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

This dashes to smithereens any hope you had of sowing seeds of doubt regarding this.

Some of these might help. I don't want to become totally useless.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

need a body to cry and to have a voice and to wear a robe.


Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

feet, and talking, those are some fairly big clues.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.




2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven

2 Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

 

[Jackson123]

Scripture certainly teaches that the wicked are punished eternally, but not that the wicked endure eternal punishment. The wicked suffer “eternal punishment”(Mt 25:46), “eternal judgment” (Heb 6:2) and “eternal destruction” (2 Thess 1:9) the same way the elect experience “eternal redemption” (Heb 5:9, 9:12). The elect do not undergo an eternal process of redemption. Their redemption is “eternal” in the sense that once the elect are redeemed, it is forever after. So too, the damned do not undergo an eternal process of punishment or destruction. But once they are punished and destroyed, it is forever after. Hell is eternal in consequence, not duration. The wicked are “destroyed forever” (Ps 92:7), but they are not forever being destroyed.

The Old Testament actually has a good deal to say about the ultimate destiny of those who resist God. Peter specifically cites the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah as a pattern of how God judges the wicked. The Lord turned the inhabitants of these cities “to ashes” and “condemned them to extinction” thus making “them an example of what is coming to the ungodly…” (2 Pet. 2:6). Conversely, the Lord’s rescue of Lot sets a pattern for how the Lord will “rescue the godly from trial” (2 Pet. 2:9). We thus have a precedent set in the New Testament for learning about the fate of the wicked in the Old Testament. And what we learn is that they are “condemned… to extinction.”

Note also the metaphors in Isaiah 1:38, 1:30-31, and 5:24 carefully. They denote total annihilation.

The theme that the Lord will annihilate the wicked is especially prominent in the Psalms. The Psalmist says that whereas those who take delight in the Lord shall be “like trees planted by streams of water” (1:3), the wicked shall be “like chaff that the wind drives away…the wicked will perish” (Ps. 1:4, 6). They shall be dashed “in pieces like a potter’s vessel” (2:9), torn into fragments (Ps. 50:22) and “blotted out of the book of the living…” (Ps. 69:28, cf. Deut. 29:20). Each metaphor depicts total annihilation.

Similarly, the Lord’s plan for “evildoers” is to “cut off the remembrance of them from the earth…evil brings death to the wicked” (Ps. 34:16, 21). The wicked shall be so thoroughly destroyed that they shall not even be remembered (Ps. 9:6; 34:16). In the powerful words of a later author, the wicked “shall be as though they had never been” (Obed. 16, emphasis added).

With the same force, the Psalmist proclaimed that the wicked “will soon fade like the grass, and wither like the green herb” (Ps. 37:2). They “shall be cut off…and…will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there“ (Ps. 37:9–10). While the righteous “abide forever” (37:27), “the wicked perish…like smoke they vanish away” (Ps. 37:20); they “vanish like water that runs away; like grass [they shall] be trodden down and wither”; “like the snail that dissolves into slime; like the untimely birth that never sees the sun” (Ps. 58:7–8). And again, “…transgressors shall be altogether destroyed” (Ps. 37:38, cf. vs. 34). In short, the fate of the wicked is disintegration into nothingness.

The Psalmist’s emphasis on the total destruction of the wicked has parallels throughout the Old Testament. Daniel, for example, speaks of all who shall be crushed by the rock of God’s judgment as being “broken.” They become “like the chaff of the summer threshing floor” blown away by the wind “so that not a trace of them [can] be found” (Dan. 2:35). Nahum says that in the judgment the wicked “are consumed like dry straw” (Nahum 1:10). Malachi tells us that the judgment day shall come “burning like an oven” and “all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble.” The judgment thus “shall burn them up” (Mal. 4:1). source

the bottom line is Jesus say goat go to eternal punishment

 

[Jackson123]

Some of these might help. I don't want to become totally useless.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

need a body to cry and to have a voice and to wear a robe.


Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

feet, and talking, those are some fairly big clues.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.




2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven

2 Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

what are those verse say eternal punishment mean cease to exist

 

[Mem]

FreeGrace2 said:
Because it is pure presumption only.

What I said is that there is MUCH MORE presumption about souls not being inherently immortal than than that they are.

Actually, annihilationists have NO verses that say that souls will cease to exist. They presume that they will. I have NO verses that say that God gives immortality to the souls of believers.

So the clear impression is that souls are immortal. And what will be destroyed in the LOF is the unbeliever's mortal resurrected body.


ONLY IF there was a verse that tells us that God gives immortality to the soul of believers. But there isn't any. The ENTIRE context of believers and their resurrection is about their immortal bodies. Nothing about their souls.

It is presumption to claim that souls aren't immortal and the Bible doesn't say they are. Nor does the Bible say that souls will cease to exist.

It's just all speculation on the side of annihilationists.

There are no verses that refute my view. That would be a verse that tells us that God gives immortality to the believer's soul.

I suppose that your claim is that verses speaking of the corruptible putting on immortality are speaking to just the body but what would you say of Satan, who is certainly corrupt. Why might people believe that he is immortal? It is prophesied from the beginning that Eve's seed will crush his head. Is he merely something like as a spiritual squeaky toy?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

You have presumed the soul is inherently immortal. You must have derived that conclusion from somewhere.

It's hardly presumption when it's a biblical concept. Posts 847 & 926. I posted scriputre verses which prove that.
Conversely, a philosophy of materialism is un-biblical.

I have to wonder what the pastor of your church teaches. It is striking that everyone who has been arguing that annihilation
is the fate of the wicked doesn't simply hold that view. You also deny the existence of man's inner being. Annhilationism
has been exposed here. Only the enemy would want to decieve mankind into thinking he is a lesser being than our creator
made us to be.

 

[Runningman]

It's hardly presumption when it's a biblical concept. Posts 847 & 926. I posted scriputre verses which prove that.
Conversely, a philosophy of materialism is un-biblical.

I have to wonder what the pastor of your church teaches. It is striking that everyone who has been arguing that annihilation
is the fate of the wicked doesn't simply hold that view. You also deny the existence of man's inner being. Annhilationism
has been exposed here. Only the enemy would want to decieve mankind into thinking he is a lesser being than our creator
made us to be.

there’s precedent for the death of the unrighteous soul. There’s no precedent for the unrighteous soul not dying. The righteous soul, there’s precedent for it living forever. This isn’t a trick of the enemy, very bold words, and I am led to believe you aren’t meaning to call God your enemy intentionally. You’re just confused on this point.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You don’t seem to understand what a person is.

Actually, I do. 1 Thess 5:21 speaks of body, soul and spirit. Unbelievers don't have a live spirit; only a body and soul.

They’re a body, soul, and spirit. The scenario you invented where the saved person receives a resurrected physical body, but no soul and spirit is not sound Bible.

What you fail to understand is that when a believer dies, their soul/spirit go face to face with the Lord in heaven. And when the Lord returns at the Second Advent, He brings with Him ALL the believers who have already died. So, where does the Bible mention that God gives the souls/spirits of the dead believers immortality? Nowhere is where.

Plainly you don’t have any verses that say there is eternal torment for all of the unsaved

I don't need one, and anyone with even a bit of discernment understands what's going on. In Rev 19 both the beast and FP are thrown ALIVE into the LOF. They are humans.

In Rev 20:10 we read that Satan is cast into the LOF, where the beast and FP ARE ARE ARE. And they have been there for 1,000 years. And they are STILL STILL STILL there.

The very next verse introduces the GWT judgment where the bodies of ALL unbelievers will be resurrected and joined to their souls and then be cast into the LOF, where the beast and FP ARE ARE ARE already. So, why would anyone ASSUME or PRESUME that only the beast and FP will suffer for eternity? There is NO reason at all.

or that the resurrection only involves a physical body. Jesus wasn’t resurrected as a hollow shell

Why are you assuming the insane? Every believer should know that at death, the soul of believers go to be with the Lord in heaven.

then neither will we be. We have a pretense and a precedent for everything we’ve been saying. That’s sound Bible.

"perish" never means "cease to exist". You have NO verses that say God WILL destroy a soul. Yes, He is able, because He is omnipotent, but no verse says He will.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Souls in heaven resurrected with a physical body for the MK:

Revelation 20:4-6
4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

This dashes to smithereens any hope you had of sowing seeds of doubt regarding this.

Where have I even tried to sow seeds of doubt on this passage.

It is this very passage that opened my eyes to the FACT that the LOF is also called the second death for unbelievers. It is their bodies that will die again. Leaving their souls to suffer for eternity, just as the beast and FP will be.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Soulless eternal bodies and bodyless eternal souls??? Just wanted to say Thank you again for your patience endurance in the face of all this.

Rather, don't listen to all of his ridiculous made up stuff. I've never said anything about "soulless eternal bodies". But he's desperate to demonize me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Some of these might help. I don't want to become totally useless.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

need a body to cry and to have a voice and to wear a robe.

It appears you never got the memo, or ignored it. When a believer dies, their soul goes to heaven, face to face with the Lord. Where do you read that they are given a body when they die? You don't. So you have to make something up.

Even in Hades, where the souls of the rich man and Lazarus went after they died, the rich man speaks of Laz dipping his finger into water and letting a drop of water on his tongue to cool him. Yet, their bodies were still in the ground.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I suppose that your claim is that verses speaking of the corruptible putting on immortality are speaking to just the body

You don't have to "suppose". The Bible is very clear about what receives immortality. Haven't you ever read 1 Cor 15?? Or 1 Peter 3:9? They only speak of the body becoming immortal and imperishable.

but what would you say of Satan, who is certainly corrupt. Why might people believe that he is immortal?

What I know is that the LOF will be prepared for him and his fallen angels. Regarding the creation of angels, we know very little. God has not revealed details of their creation. But I do know the LOF is designed for eternity, so it should be obvious that all fallen angels will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Why does that bother you, as it seems it does?

It is prophesied from the beginning that Eve's seed will crush his head.

That means "defeat" and Jesus Christ defeated Him at the cross already.

Is he merely something like as a spiritual squeaky toy?

no. Your childish snippets aren't helping you. Satan was the highest ranked angel before his rebellion. And here you are, acting smart-alecky and trying to diminish him. The Bible doesn't. You shouldn't.

The Bible says he will be punished day and night for ever and ever. That would of course include all his fallen angels, because of Matt 25:41.

 

[FreeGrace2]

there’s precedent for the death of the unrighteous soul.

Zero precedent and zero verses. Your biggest problem is proving that God has to give immortality to the souls of believers, when the Bible is SILENT on that subject.

In ALL the verses about the resurrection of believers, only the body is said to be "raised imperishable", which means immortal. That would clearly imply that the soul of the believer is immortal. And since there is nothing about a believer's soul BECOMING immortal, that shows that is immortal from the start.

There’s no precedent for the unrighteous soul not dying.

Sure there is. In Rev 19 the beast and FP are cast into the LOF. In Rev 20:10 they are STILL STILL STILL there, 1,000 years after being thrown into the LOF. That's plenty of precedence. And the Bible says nothing those 2 getting a DIFFERENT sentence than the rest of unbelievers in the human race.

So you are the very confused one.

The righteous soul, there’s precedent for it living forever.

Every soul. The precendent on living forever is focused on the body of believers. Not true for unbelievers, who will DIE AGAIN when cast into the LOF.