annihilation or conscious torment????

[Adstar]

hi!!!!!!!! i decided to heat things up (ba-dum-tshh) today with a cheerful and hot topic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

since universalism is out the window............ which view do you personally think is more scriptural???????? annihilation or eternal conscious torment??????? i think both views have good verses like isaiah 66:24 for annihilation and for the ect view rev 20:10 is good because it says the false prophet and beast are not were..............
or could both be right if God decides so???????? many people dont know the gospel but thats also no excuse because romans says we are without excuse............ thats how God sees it i think.......

i know annihilationism is minority view but some say its still under orthodoxy some say its heresy me personally from plain reading from scriptures without anyone telling me anything i found annihilation in the old and eternal torment in the new which is weird............. why didnt God tell adam or anyone in the old testament including the nations about torment in hell............. that does seem strnage to me thats why i say in the old i got annihilation but in the new i clearly got eternal torment because Jesus said its forever and that better to pluck an eye so we know its bad................ why would Jesus say dont fear him who can only kill the body but not the soul if its the same thing???????????

The Bible is very clear on the matter.. The following verse should stop all debate.. But some people simply want to have their ears tickled and they will not be able to accept it..

Revelation 20: KJV
9 "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. {10} And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

 

[Muzungu256]

I'm very doubtful about the "eternal" idea applied to punishment. Firstly it doesn't sit well with the idea of a loving God. Secondly Jesus was speaking to a jewish audience who firmly believed that "gehennim" was limited in time, and never challenges that idea. Thirdly some of the "ever and ever" passages seem to read more like "To the end of the present age" in the Koine.

That's why I think there is a good universalist case.

NO!!!!!!!!!!! dont buy into that like i did!!!!!!!!!!!! whatever the punishment is for unbelievers it will be eternal, thats one thing that is for sure no matter what its like!!!!!!!!!!! these universalist guys try to catch you with love and fluff always so loving thats what caught my attention as well beware beware beware!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[h=1]Hebrews 6:1-2English Standard Version (ESV)[/h][FONT=&quot]6 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings,[a] the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.[/FONT]

 

[Ahwatukee]

Greetings astropolis,

I'm very doubtful about the "eternal" idea applied to punishment. Firstly it doesn't sit well with the idea of a loving God.

You have to keep in mind that though God is a loving God, that does not override His righteous judgment. Once a person dies without Christ, grace and mercy are no longer applied to that individual. There is not going to be grace and mercy for those who stand before God at the great white throne judgment. As an example, for those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark, scripture states that "they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath," which means that those who are guilty of that will receive God's full wrath without any mercy mixed in. Grace and mercy are only extended to a person while they are alive. Once a person dies their record is sealed and they will be judged to the full extent for their sins.

Secondly Jesus was speaking to a jewish audience who firmly believed that "gehennim" was limited in time, and never challenges that idea.

Jesus was speaking to them as well as to the entire church and anyone reading His word.

Thirdly some of the "ever and ever" passages seem to read more like "To the end of the present age" in the Koine.

The word is "aion" and can mean an age, a cycle of time and eternity. For example: "the angel raised his right hand and swore by Him who lives forever and ever." The words "forever and ever" are "aion and aion." Since we know that God is eternal, having no beginning or end, then the word would infer aion as meaning eternal.

"They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

A person would have to be conscious and aware in order to experience not having any rest day or night as well as experiencing the smoke of their torment rising up forever.

 

[valiant]

The Bible is very clear on the matter.. The following verse should stop all debate.. But some people simply want to have their ears tickled and they will not be able to accept it..

Revelation 20: KJV
9 "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. {10} And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

But the beast and the false prophet were thrown ALIVE into the Lake of Fire (Rev 19.20), along with the Devil (Rev 20.10). The people were thrown in DEAD (Rev 20.12).

 

[Adstar]

But the beast and the false prophet were thrown ALIVE into the Lake of Fire (Rev 19.20), along with the Devil (Rev 20.10). The people were thrown in DEAD (Rev 20.12).

Fistly you are disregarding the Revelation that the false prophet is thrown alive into the eternal lake of fire.. The false Prophet is a human being...... remember that..

As for Revelation 20: 12.. All humans will be resaurected on the day of judgement to face judgement.. They will not be corpses..

Revelation 20: KJV
12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

They will be standing before God on the day of judgement.. They will not be dead corpses..

 

[garee]

with all due respect sir it says no rest day nor night and torment............. not dead forever

Thanks for the reply .I see that a little differently

Hell is in respect to a living tribulation. The dead know nothing because they no longer have any spirit life. (Universal Alzheimer’s )They have passed from life under the sun (The time keeper) No longer having any spirit life by which they could suffer

Purple in (parenthisis) my personal comment

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Universal Alzheimer’s )Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. (This includes suffering)
Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. (This includes the work of suffering) Ecc 9:5

The word forever is used two ways in the Bible. One in respect to spirit life under the Sun (the unbeliever) no Sabbath rest at any time. And the other as new creatures after the Sun and Moon no longer give of any light, indicating they did enter His rest..

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they (not the believer)have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Forever in respect to a person who is not elected to salvation ends when they die .They received no Sabbath rest with Christ all the days they were alive.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Rev 14:12-13

In order to suffer there must be life. Christ was wounded for our sin as a living sacrifice. The father poured out the wrath of God revealed from heaven (the Corruption) on Him. He was afflicted or wounded for our sin. He did not die to give us spirit life. Death shows us spirit life was poured out as if it was blood, just as he promised to pour our His Spirit in jeopardy of his own spirit life.

The scripture defines hell as a living work which defines the words “heart of the earth”

Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.Jon 2:1

Again a person cannot cry out if they have no spirit life. they will never arise to new life in the new heavens and earth

 

[1ofthem]

Just asking here, but how could just dying be a punishment? Why does Mark 9 talk about it being better to enter into life maimed, halt and with one eye than be cast into hell where the fire is not quenched and their worm dieth not?

 

[Muzungu256]

Just asking here, but how could just dying be a punishment? Why does Mark 9 talk about it being better to enter into life maimed, halt and with one eye than be cast into hell where the fire is not quenched and their worm dieth not?

thats actually a quote from isaiah 66:24 where corpses are mentioned

 

[Crustyone]

In reading your posts Magenta, post 12+15 still leave open the possibility of life after destruction or perishing. Only reading the definitions with the idea of seeing only death it does make perfect sense to see them as the absolute destruction, but with an open mind there is also the words "cut off" and others that only tell of being separated from something, in this case God. The analogy of the burst wineskin works here. The burst wineskin is still a viable entity, but is "cut off" from further use and symbolically from God.

In post #16 you mention that death is a punishment and while that is true, how is it going to punish the more evil ones more than the less evil ones as God indicates that he will do in Hebrews 10:28-29, Matt. 11:20-22. John 19:11, 2 Peter 2:20-22 and Rev. 20:12-13. Also how can we heap more coals on the heads of our enemies if there is no difference in punishment?

If we go with the idea of punishment from the time they die and go to Sheol, to the time of resurrection, what about the people still alive at the time judgement? Where is their differentiated punishment? There is too much around the idea of graded punishment in the Lake of Fire for me to believe in a single immediate burning death.

I have been toying with the idea of a time of end for those in the Lake of Fire, though. In Revelations Paul was told something, but was not allowed to write it down and I am wondering if it had to do with those in the Lake being purified by the fire. Throughout the bible there is mention of the purification by fire and that would certainly be one way of punishing some more than others. As far as the evil ones being in the fire forever, once purified, they wouldn't be evil anymore, therefore the evil was in there forever and was destroyed. Just a thought.

 

[Crustyone]

I waited too long to add the references to coals, but they are Proverbs 25:22 and Romans 12:19-20.

 

[1ofthem]

thats actually a quote from isaiah 66:24 where corpses are mentioned

Thanks, I looked that up, but I still have a hard time relating their worm to just being an actual worm. I don't get how just dying could be a punishment.

It does talk about the wages of sin is death in the bible, but if we read Ephesians 2:1 it states that we were dead in our trespasses before being saved. We are compared to dead men, yet we were still actually alive, just not spiritually. So I wonder if the death that is being talked about is being in opposition to God and his ways, not just being annihilated.

 

[Muzungu256]

Thanks, I looked that up, but I still have a hard time relating their worm to just being an actual worm. I don't get how just dying could be a punishment.

It does talk about the wages of sin is death in the bible, but if we read Ephesians 2:1 it states that we were dead in our trespasses before being saved. We are compared to dead men, yet we were still actually alive, just not spiritually. So I wonder if the death that is being talked about is being in opposition to God and his ways, not just being annihilated.

this is true!!!!!!!!!!! whatever it is it cannot be good!!!!!!!!!!! like trofimus said it could also be that each has a degree of torment according to their works for a time and then they are destroyed completely.............. or that they burn forever in different degrees according to their works!!!!!!!!!!!!! many options but all unpleasant

 

[valiant]

Fistly you are disregarding the Revelation that the false prophet is thrown alive into the eternal lake of fire.. The false Prophet is a human being...... remember that..

He is a demonised being, if anything. But the false prophet is a religion not a being at all. It is the demon behind it who is cast into the lake of fire.

As for Revelation 20: 12.. All humans will be resaurected on the day of judgement to face judgement.. They will not be corpses..

They are always called 'the dead' in Revelation 20. They are raised again to be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 20: KJV
12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

They will be standing before God on the day of judgement.. They will not be dead corpses..

See above.

Death and Hades are also thrown in the lake of fire? Do you think death will be tormented?

 

[valiant]

Thanks, I looked that up, but I still have a hard time relating their worm to just being an actual worm.

Actually its a maggot. Their bodies are destroyed in the valley of Hinnom by fire and maggots.

I don't get how just dying could be a punishment.

I thin when God destroys their bodies and souls in Hell it will be punishment enough

It does talk about the wages of sin is death in the bible, but if we read Ephesians 2:1 it states that we were dead in our trespasses before being saved. We are compared to dead men, yet we were still actually alive, just not spiritually. So I wonder if the death that is being talked about is being in opposition to God and his ways, not just being annihilated.

Death is final. And it is not annihilation but destruction

 

[1ofthem]

See above.

Death and Hades are also thrown in the lake of fire? Do you think death will be tormented?

I always took that to mean that the spiritually dead who are in hell will be threw into the lake of fire and tormented.

 

[1ofthem]

this is true!!!!!!!!!!! whatever it is it cannot be good!!!!!!!!!!! like trofimus said it could also be that each has a degree of torment according to their works for a time and then they are destroyed completely.............. or that they burn forever in different degrees according to their works!!!!!!!!!!!!! many options but all unpleasant

I've always thought that it is forever one way or the other...either people are rewarded with paradise forever or tormented forever.

 

[1ofthem]

Actually its a maggot. Their bodies are destroyed in the valley of Hinnom by fire and maggots.




I thin when God destroys their bodies and souls in Hell it will be punishment enough



Death is final. And it is not annihilation but destruction

Wouldn't anyone consider death to be a blessing as compared to eternal punishment and torment?

 

[valiant]

I always took that to mean that the spiritually dead who are in hell will be threw into the lake of fire and tormented.

Nowhere are the spiritually dead said to be permanently tormented. It is just assumed.. If it were true do you not think God would have made it plain?

 

[valiant]

Wouldn't anyone consider death to be a blessing as compared to eternal punishment and torment?

Destruction is worse than death. But anything would be preferable to eternal torment. However God nowhere threatens it. He generally speaks of DEATH.

 

[Johnny_B]

hi!!!!!!!! i decided to heat things up (ba-dum-tshh) today with a cheerful and hot topic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

since universalism is out the window............ which view do you personally think is more scriptural???????? annihilation or eternal conscious torment??????? i think both views have good verses like isaiah 66:24 for annihilation and for the ect view rev 20:10 is good because it says the false prophet and beast are not were..............
or could both be right if God decides so???????? many people dont know the gospel but thats also no excuse because romans says we are without excuse............ thats how God sees it i think.......

i know annihilationism is minority view but some say its still under orthodoxy some say its heresy me personally from plain reading from scriptures without anyone telling me anything i found annihilation in the old and eternal torment in the new which is weird............. why didnt God tell adam or anyone in the old testament including the nations about torment in hell............. that does seem strnage to me thats why i say in the old i got annihilation but in the new i clearly got eternal torment because Jesus said its forever and that better to pluck an eye so we know its bad................ why would Jesus say dont fear him who can only kill the body but not the soul if its the same thing???????????

Can you elaborate on the annihilation being in the OT by posting some verse. Isaiah 66:24, “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

That is not annihilation that is as you put it conscience torment, why would it say "their and they" if they are annihilated, why would the Spirit point out that their worms do not die, their fire shall not be quenched, plus they are an abhorrence to those that see them, how could that be if they are annihilated, obliterated, utterly destroyed, if something is annihilated it's gone you can see it anymore, all the Lord has to do is say the word and the atom that are the body will spears out in to billions of particles. They do not know what holds the atom together, we do it's help together by the Word of the Lord.

Hebrews 1:3 "He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," If the Lord is going to annihilate there will be nothing to see, when He burns up the earth with an atomic fire, He could at the same time annihilate those that rebelled. The point of those being outside of the city of worship is so we can see what happened to the that rebelled.