annihilation or conscious torment????

[1ofthem]

Nowhere are the spiritually dead said to be permanently tormented. It is just assumed.. If it were true do you not think God would have made it plain?

I guess that's where we differ, sir...because I see Revelations 20:10-15 to be saying just that.

The lake of fire is forever and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever and death and hell will give up their dead and then whosoever was not written in the book of life will be cast unto the lake of fire. That's my take on it, but I will post the scripture, as well .

Revelations 20: 10-15
[FONT=&quot] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.[/FONT]

 

[valiant]

I guess that's where we differ, sir...because I see Revelations 20:10-15 to be saying just that.

The lake of fire is forever and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever and death and hell will give up their dead and then whosoever was not written in the book of life will be cast unto the lake of fire. That's my take on it, but I will post the scripture, as well .

Revelations 20: 10-15
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

where does it say the spiritually dead will be tormented for ever and ever?

Their fate is linked with that of death and Hades which are clearly thrown in to be destroyed..

 

[valiant]

Can you elaborate on the annihilation being in the OT by posting some verse. Isaiah 66:24, “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

That is not annihilation

But it is destruction.

that is as you put it

conscience torment, why would it say "their and they" if they are annihilated,

Men go out and look at their dead bodies. Their and they are used of dead bodies.

why would the Spirit point out that their

worms do not die, their fire shall not be quenched, plus they are an abhorrence to those that see them

Because the maggots that destroy them and the fire that burns them ARE long lasting. They are an abhorrence to all flesh because they are dead and destroyed for their sins.

, how could that be if they are annihilated, obliterated, utterly destroyed, if something is annihilated it's gone you can see it anymore

,

Their remains are seen.

The point of those being outside of the city of worship is so we can see what happened to them that rebelled.

Yes they were destroyed.

 

[1ofthem]

where does it say the spiritually dead will be tormented for ever and ever?

Their fate is linked with that of death and Hades which are clearly thrown in to be destroyed..

I mean, if the beast, the false prophet and the devil are threw into the lake of fire to be tormented night and day forever... It just kind of goes to figure that when all those who are not found in the book of life are threw into the lake of fire, the same goes for them.

Also destroyed has several meanings not all meaning annihilation. Destroy also means to ruin someone emotionally or spiritually or to utterly defeat someone.

de·stroy
dəˈstroi/
verb
[COLOR=#878787 !important]past tense: destroyed; past participle: destroyed[/COLOR]

• put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it.
  [COLOR=#878787 !important]"the room had been destroyed by fire"[/COLOR]
  [TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
  [TR]
  [TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
  [TD]demolish, knock down, level, raze (to the ground), fell; More
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  [/TD]
  [/TR]
  [/TABLE]
  
  [TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
  [TR]
  [TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"][/TD]
  [TD][/TD]
  [/TR]
  [/TABLE]
  
  
  
  • ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]"he has been determined to destroy her"[/COLOR]
    
    
    
  • defeat (someone) utterly.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]"the Tigers destroyed the Padres in five games"[/COLOR]
    [TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
    [TD]annihilate, wipe out, obliterate, wipe off the face of the earth, eliminate, eradicate, liquidate, finish off, erase; More[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
    
    
    
  
  
  
  

 

[1ofthem]

Oops, sorry about all the boxes and stuff there...I just copied and pasted the definition..don't know why it did that to it...lol

 

[valiant]

I mean, if the beast, the false prophet and the devil are threw into the lake of fire to be tormented night and day forever... It just kind of goes to figure that when all those who are not found in the book of life are threw into the lake of fire, the same goes for them.

But the beast, the false prophet and the Devil are three supernatural beings. The men are just petty mortals.

Those three were thrown in 'alive'. Men were thrown in 'dead'.

Also destroyed has several meanings not all meaning annihilation. Destroy also means to ruin someone emotionally or spiritually or to utterly defeat someone.

When Plato in his Immortality of the Soul wanted to express the cessation of the soul (which he did not believe in) he used 'destroyed' to express it. He knew better than we lol

 

[prove-all]

John 3:16 is probably the most widely known, most recognized, and well loved Scripture there is. It states that God so loved the world that He have His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

That word perish means to utterly destroy (see Strong's concordance, word #622). Unlike the first death, the second death is meant to last forever after. There are a multitude of Scriptures that attest to the fact that the wages of sin is death. Jesus told us to fear Him Who could destroy both body and soul in hell, whereas many people will claim that the soul is immortal, despite the fact that Scripture plainly states that only God is immortal. We attain to life ever after through faith in His righteous blood. Eternal life is awarded ONLY to those with faith. All others pass into the second death, having had their names blotted out of the Lamb's book of life. The dead know nothing. These are Scriptural truths, faithfully recorded and passed along to us through the prophets and apostles of old.

* * * * * * * * *
There are many many many Scriptures that attest to the fact that death is the final everlasting punishment for the person who refuses to accept the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ as a covering for their sin.

The lost perish and are no more.

Strong's concordance word #622 = Perish

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι

Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing

Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the
resultant death being viewed as certain).HELPS Word-studies

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).


622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad
that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but
rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the Greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which
means to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish, make void.

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those
in the days of Noah (Luke 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all"
(not tortured). And it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29)
"destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So a person either receives eternal life, or they perish. Nothing about eternal torment there.

John 5:24, Jesus said
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has
eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift
of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him,
for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Please, note again: Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption
(phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish. The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from
the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The Greek word is olethron: destruction. From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction,
but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the
One who is able to save and to destroy;

2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for
fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient
toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
If you are not alive you cannot be tormented!

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in
Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ
will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.
How can it be any clearer?

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
The lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us: the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead!

After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever in their state of sin. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

Ezekiel 18:4
The soul who sins will die.

Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28b
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
the dead know nothing

Following the resurrection and judgement of all is when the mortal put on the
immortal, not before. Then too shall the corruptible put on the incorruptible.
See 1 Corinthians 15:54~ Death will be swallowed up in victory.

In fact, Jesus Christ has already overcome death.
Death and Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Magenta again.

DEATH, NOT TORTURE, IS THE PUNISHMENT OF SIN
THE WICKED DESTROYED, forever no more, NOT TORTURED

 

[Depleted]

hi!!!!!!!! i decided to heat things up (ba-dum-tshh) today with a cheerful and hot topic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

since universalism is out the window............ which view do you personally think is more scriptural???????? annihilation or eternal conscious torment??????? i think both views have good verses like isaiah 66:24 for annihilation and for the ect view rev 20:10 is good because it says the false prophet and beast are not were..............
or could both be right if God decides so???????? many people dont know the gospel but thats also no excuse because romans says we are without excuse............ thats how God sees it i think.......

i know annihilationism is minority view but some say its still under orthodoxy some say its heresy me personally from plain reading from scriptures without anyone telling me anything i found annihilation in the old and eternal torment in the new which is weird............. why didnt God tell adam or anyone in the old testament including the nations about torment in hell............. that does seem strnage to me thats why i say in the old i got annihilation but in the new i clearly got eternal torment because Jesus said its forever and that better to pluck an eye so we know its bad................ why would Jesus say dont fear him who can only kill the body but not the soul if its the same thing???????????

I do not matter... in big ways. If I died in five minutes, the world carries on without me.

But I do matter in small ways. God loves me. My husband loves me. My family and friends love me. And I help others. Helping is my small way of contributing to God, to others, to society, and to those important to me. It's not a lot of help, but it is help. It probably doesn't change the course of history, but it is help.

Can you not say the same thing?

What is hell? Whether it is annihilation or eternal torture it is not mattering to anyone any more. It is helping no one, ever again. It is sheer nothingness the person contributes. No big contributions. No little one. Nothing.

So does it matter either way? Just a place I wouldn't want to waste any time in, once more eternally being there.

 

[samuel23]

The bible is a wonderful book that is full of the truths of God, however just when we have it all figured out something comes out of nowhere that we cannot explain, in most cases we just kind of ignore it and go on, here is one. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it. This place is scripture is saying very clearly that some who have died in the sea remained in the sea in spirit form. I am not presenting a doctrine, just pointing out what is actually in the bible. It reminds me of this story in NG about these fellows who were trying to recover some things on a ship that went down with many people on board. Anyway, they went down and tied their line and the next morning the lines was untied. The Captain was saying that there was no way the line could have come untied by itself, and then he just let it go at that. I wonder, are their spirits of those who have drowned in the sea, in the sea, if not then why would the bible mention calling forth the spirits of those who had drowned in the sea?

 

[valiant]

The bible is a wonderful book that is full of the truths of God, however just when we have it all figured out something comes out of nowhere that we cannot explain, in most cases we just kind of ignore it and go on, here is one. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it. This place is scripture is saying very clearly that some who have died in the sea remained in the sea in spirit form. I am not presenting a doctrine, just pointing out what is actually in the bible. It reminds me of this story in NG about these fellows who were trying to recover some things on a ship that went down with many people on board. Anyway, they went down and tied their line and the next morning the lines was untied. The Captain was saying that there was no way the line could have come untied by itself, and then he just let it go at that. I wonder, are their spirits of those who have drowned in the sea, in the sea, if not then why would the bible mention calling forth the spirits of those who had drowned in the sea?

The spirits of men do not remain in their bodies after they have died. Thus the sea gave up the bodies of the dead, but their spirits were elsewhere. The body lay in the grave (including the sea), but the spirit returns to the God Who gave it

 

[1ofthem]

The bible is a wonderful book that is full of the truths of God, however just when we have it all figured out something comes out of nowhere that we cannot explain, in most cases we just kind of ignore it and go on, here is one. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it. This place is scripture is saying very clearly that some who have died in the sea remained in the sea in spirit form. I am not presenting a doctrine, just pointing out what is actually in the bible. It reminds me of this story in NG about these fellows who were trying to recover some things on a ship that went down with many people on board. Anyway, they went down and tied their line and the next morning the lines was untied. The Captain was saying that there was no way the line could have come untied by itself, and then he just let it go at that. I wonder, are their spirits of those who have drowned in the sea, in the sea, if not then why would the bible mention calling forth the spirits of those who had drowned in the sea?

That is interesting...

Though, I wonder if death is being referred to as the earthly physical grave where the bodies died or were buried and the sea being the place where the other bodies died or was buried. Maybe those two are referring to the actual bodies coming back up. I don't think physical bodies go to hell...in my opinion it is the soul that goes to hell... so could that passage just be referring to the physical bodies coming back up from where they are and their souls coming back from hell? Our bodies are just earthly vessels for the soul so when we die our soul leaves our bodies, but on judgement day wouldn't our bodies and souls come back together so that we would stand whole before the throne to be judged.

I'm sorry if that sounds confusing. I had a hard time wording it, but hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say.

 

[1ofthem]

The spirits of men do not remain in their bodies after they have died. Thus the sea gave up the bodies of the dead, but their spirits were elsewhere. The body lay in the grave (including the sea), but the spirit returns to the God Who gave it

I didn't see this post before I wrote mine, but that was kind of what I was trying to say about the body and soul...I just could not get it into simple and plain wording like you did...lol

 

[PrynceNY]

No such thing as annihilation only eternal torment forever. There are people who try to hang on to the annihilation theory because it's hard for them to accept the reality of Hell.

 

[Issachar92]

No such thing as annihilation only eternal torment forever. There are people who try to hang on to the annihilation theory because it's hard for them to accept the reality of Hell.

Nah. Majority of christians couldnt care less, this is proven by how little time people spend spreading the gospel in the highways and byways, while believing in eternal torment.
You try starting up a soul-winning program in your church and all the cookie cutter people think you need to be a theologian to pull that off, as if this is rocket science.

 

[valiant]

No such thing as annihilation only eternal torment forever. There are people who try to hang on to the annihilation theory because it's hard for them to accept the reality of Hell.

well show me it in Scripture lol

 

[prove-all]

No such thing as annihilation only eternal torment forever.
There are people who try to hang on to the annihilation theory because it's hard for them
to accept the reality of [Hell.]

can you define what the english word [ Hell ] means in the bible ?

 

[Adstar]

He is a demonised being, if anything. But the false prophet is a religion not a being at all. It is the demon behind it who is cast into the lake of fire.



They are always called 'the dead' in Revelation 20. They are raised again to be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.


See above.

Death and Hades are also thrown in the lake of fire? Do you think death will be tormented?

Well i have given the word of God about it so i have done my duty to God and to anyone else open to it....

But i will respons to the last point..

"""""Death and Hades are also thrown in the lake of fire? Do you think death will be tormented?"""""

No.. This is saying that death shall not happen anymore.. No one shall die after this happens.. Death is not someone..

 

[Bladerunner]

But the beast, the false prophet and the Devil are three supernatural beings. The men are just petty mortals.YES

Those three were thrown in 'alive'. Men were thrown in 'dead'. NO,,,,, at the last Judgement (WHite THrone), all dead will be resurrected. during this time as in the Rapture, their bodies will be made immortal and united with their bodies. So they will live forever. At this point, those not in the book of names are thrown into the lake of fire.



When Plato in his Immortality of the Soul wanted to express the cessation of the soul (which he did not believe in) he used 'destroyed' to express it. He knew better than we lol

The soul is eternal.. Everybody has that..It is the Human body that decays and dies.

 

[dcontroversal]

The smoke of their torment ascending forever before the throne seems to speak for itself.........

 

[Bladerunner]

The smoke of their torment ascending forever before the throne seems to speak for itself.........

well said!.DC..... It is interesting that one might explain the place of the lake of fire as that of the criminals in one of the superman series... They were put into a separate dimension than the rest.