Anti-Semitism?

[Linda70]

Where did Jesus or the apostles tie in Christ's return with Israel being back in the land? Not once in the New Testament is it recorded that they ever said that. It's NOT there.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The prophecy of the return and final re-gathering of the "dispersed" children of Israel is in the Old Testament, but its FULFILLMENT is in the New Testament. This prophecy will be fulfilled literally in the future. Your believing or not believing it will not change the truth.

Jesus is speaking of His Second Coming (Matthew 24:30; Mark 13:26) and the "gathering of His elect (the "dispersed" children of Israel) from the four winds (North, East, West, and South) by His angels" (Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27). And to what place will Jesus "gather His elect (the "dispersed" children of Israel)?

Speaking of the OT prophecy of Messiah's Second Coming and final re-gathering of the "dispersed" children of Israel, here is what Isaiah said:

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isaiah 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

God has promised through His covenants with Abraham and David that a remnant---God's preservation of a portion of Israel through the centuries of judgment--will inherit the Messianic kingdom. The Apostle Paul said:

Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

[crossnote]

I'm just wondering why this discussion is in the Bible forum? Other than a few people like prodigal and fish bait, this discussion is not about the Bible, but rather, politics, history, geography and mostly opinions.

Perhaps we can make this into a Bible discussion by posting Scriptures, or move the thread to another forum, where all this politicking would be appropriate.

good point. ask didymos who started the volley.

 

[crossnote]

Where did Jesus or the apostles tie in Christ's return with Israel being back in the land? Not once in the New Testament is it recorded that they ever said that. It's NOT there.

What's wrong with the prophecies in the OT? Do you think they go void due to Israel's rebellion?

 

[crossnote]

Big difference between them. No Christian claims that Islam is doing these things in the name of God,BUT yet they will IGNORE what Israel does in the name of God.

The Islamists do say they are doing what they do in the name of Allah, the majority of Jews in Israel don't believe in God, so there is not much to ignore.

 

[crossnote]

Prodigal, SarahM, Ukorin, Esanta...please answer this man's questions and points especially about Islam's atrocities elsewhere in the world, while the world is silent in comparison to their vitriol against Israel for defending herself.
I suspect silence here also.

They ignore Israel's ceasefire pleas because they do not work to Palestine's benefit. These people want something that means more their own lives; clean water for their children, ample food, electricity, nationality, livelihood, economy, military, safety, the land they're rightfully owed and a future, and you could never understand that because you've lived your whole life with freedom.

You quoted me but slyly changed the subject without picking up the challenge in my quote.

 

[didymos]

I'm just wondering why this discussion is in the Bible forum? Other than a few people like prodigal and fish bait, this discussion is not about the Bible, but rather, politics, history, geography and mostly opinions.

Perhaps we can make this into a Bible discussion by posting Scriptures, or move the thread to another forum, where all this politicking would be appropriate.

Because the whole notion of 'Israel' is based on scripture.

 

[crossnote]

I'm just wondering why this discussion is in the Bible forum? Other than a few people like prodigal and fish bait, this discussion is not about the Bible, but rather, politics, history, geography and mostly opinions.

Perhaps we can make this into a Bible discussion by posting Scriptures, or move the thread to another forum, where all this politicking would be appropriate.

Here we go...

'Do not be afraid, for I am with you. I will gather you and your children from east and west and from north and south. I will bring my sons and daughters back to Israel from the distant corners of the earth. All who claim me as their God will come, for I have made them for my glory. It was I who created them." Isaiah 43:5-7 (NLT)

"Who has ever seen or heard of anything as strange as this? Has a nation ever been born in a single day? Has a country ever come forth in a mere moment? But by the time Jerusalem's birth pains begin, the baby will be born; the nation will come forth." Isaiah 66:8 (NLT)

"'But the time is coming,' says the Lord, 'when people who are taking an oath will no longer say, 'As surely as the Lord lives, who rescued the people of Israel from the land of Egypt.' Instead, they will say, 'As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the people of Israel back to their own land from the land of the north and from all the countries to which he had exiled them.' For I will bring them back to this land that I gave their ancestors." Jeremiah 16:14-15 (NLT)

"'But I will gather together the remnant of my flock from wherever I have driven them. I will bring them back into their own fold, and they will be fruitful and increase in number. Then I will appoint responsible shepherds to care for them, and they will never be afraid again. Not a single one of them will be lost or missing,' says the Lord.

'For the time is coming,' says the Lord, 'when I will place a righteous Branch on King David's throne. He will be a King who rules with wisdom. He will do what is just and right throughout the land. And this is his name: 'The Lord Is Our Righteousness.' In that day Judah will be saved, and Israel will live in safety.

'In that day,' says the Lord, 'when people are taking an oath, they will no longer say, 'As surely as the Lord lives, who rescued the people of Israel from the land of Egypt.' Instead, they will say, 'As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the people of Israel back to their own land from the land of the north and from all the countries to which he had exiled them.' Then they will live in their own land." Jeremiah 23:3-8 (NLT)

"I will end your captivity and restore your fortunes. I will gather you out of the nations where I sent you and bring you home again to your own land." Jeremiah 29:14 (NLT)

"For the time is coming when I will restore the fortunes of my people of Israel and Judah. I will bring them home to this land that I gave to their ancestors, and they will possess it and live here again. I, the Lord, have spoken!" Jeremiah 30:3 (NLT)

"I will surely bring my people back again from all the countries where I will scatter them in my fury. I will bring them back to this very city and let them live in peace and safety." Jeremiah 32:37 (NLT)

"Therefore, give the exiles this message from the Sovereign Lord: Although I have scattered you in the countries of the world, I will be a sanctuary to you during your time in exile. I, the Sovereign Lord, will gather you back from the nations where you were scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel once again." Ezekiel 11:16-17 (NLT)

"This is what the Sovereign Lord says: The people of Israel will again live in their own land, the land I gave my servant Jacob. For I will gather them from the distant lands where I have scattered them. I will reveal to the nations of the world my holiness among my people. They will live safely in Israel and build their homes and plant their vineyards. And when I punish the neighboring nations that treated them with contempt, they will know that I am the Lord their God." Ezekiel 28:25-26 (NLT)

"I will be like a shepherd looking for his scattered flock. I will find my sheep and rescue them from all the places to which they were scattered on that dark and cloudy day. I will bring them back home to their own land of Israel from among the peoples and nations. I will feed them on the mountains of Israel and by the rivers in all the places where people live. Yes, I will give them good pastureland on the high hills of Israel. There they will lie down in pleasant places and feed in lush mountain pastures." Ezekiel 34:12-14 (NLT)

"And give them this message from the Sovereign Lord: I will gather the people of Israel from among the nations. I will bring them home to their own land from the places where they have been scattered. I will unify them into one nation in the land. One king will rule them all; no longer will they be divided into two nations." Ezekiel 37:21-22 (NLT)

"So now the Sovereign Lord says: I will end the captivity of my people; I will have mercy on Israel, for I am jealous for my holy reputation! They will accept responsibility for their past shame and treachery against me after they come home to live in peace and safety in their own land. And then no one will bother them or make them afraid. When I bring them home from the lands of their enemies, my holiness will be displayed to the nations. Then my people will know that I am the Lord their God - responsible for sending them away to exile and responsible for bringing them home. I will leave none of my people behind. And I will never again turn my back on them, for I will pour out my Spirit upon them, says the Sovereign Lord." Ezekiel 39:25-29 (NLT)

The time will come,' says the Lord, 'when the grain and grapes will grow faster than they can be harvested. Then the terraced vineyards on the hills of Israel will drip with sweet wine! I will bring my exiled people of Israel back from distant lands, and they will rebuild their ruined cities and live in them again. They will plant vineyards and gardens; they will eat their crops and drink their wine. I will firmly plant them there in the land I have given them,' says the Lord your God. 'Then they will never be uprooted again.'" Amos 9:11-15 (NLT)

"This is what the Lord of Heaven's Armies says: Once again old men and women will walk Jerusalem's streets with their canes and will sit together in the city squares. And the streets of the city will be filled with boys and girls at play. This is what the Lord of Heaven's Armies says: All this may seem impossible to you now, a small remnant of God's people. But is it impossible for me? says the Lord of Heaven's Armies. This is what the Lord of Heaven's Armies says: You can be sure that I will rescue my people from the east and from the west. I will bring them home again to live safely in Jerusalem. They will be my people, and I will be faithful and just toward them as their God." Zechariah 8:4-8 (NLT)

...just to name a FEW

 

[SarahM777]

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The prophecy of the return and final re-gathering of the "dispersed" children of Israel is in the Old Testament, but its FULFILLMENT is in the New Testament. This prophecy will be fulfilled literally in the future. Your believing or not believing it will not change the truth.

Jesus is speaking of His Second Coming (Matthew 24:30; Mark 13:26) and the "gathering of His elect (the "dispersed" children of Israel) from the four winds (North, East, West, and South) by His angels" (Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27). And to what place will Jesus "gather His elect (the "dispersed" children of Israel)?

Speaking of the OT prophecy of Messiah's Second Coming and final re-gathering of the "dispersed" children of Israel, here is what Isaiah said:

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isaiah 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

God has promised through His covenants with Abraham and David that a remnant---God's preservation of a portion of Israel through the centuries of judgment--will inherit the Messianic kingdom. The Apostle Paul said:

Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Jesus DOES NOT SAY HE WILL GATHER the dispersed children of Israel. It says He will gather the ELECT. The elect are BELIEVERS not UNREPENTANT Israel.

The Bible tells us that Israel has ALREADY been returned to the land TWICE.

Hebrews 11

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Go back and read Genesis. Jacob (Israel) and his 12 sons LIVED in the promised land. They left the promised land because of a famine in the land. If you leave a place and come back to it,one has returned to it.

Neither one of those verses in Romans say that,that remnant will be RESTORED to a land in the Middle East,it plainly says that the remnant will be SAVED.

 

[SarahM777]

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

And to take it further NO WHERE in those verse does Jesus say they will be gathered in the land BEFORE He returns.

 

[SarahM777]

What's wrong with the prophecies in the OT? Do you think they go void due to Israel's rebellion?

The real question should be is WHY they didn't? Did the Holy Spirit FORGET to tell them or something? If Israel was to be dispersed and restored to the land and it is VERY IMPORTANT SIGN of Jesus return,you think maybe just maybe He would have mentioned it? Or is it most LIKELY that Israel is NOT a sign of His return?

 

[crossnote]

The real question should be is WHY they didn't? Did the Holy Spirit FORGET to tell them or something? If Israel was to be dispersed and restored to the land and it is VERY IMPORTANT SIGN of Jesus return,you think maybe just maybe He would have mentioned it? Or is it most LIKELY that Israel is NOT a sign of His return?

What do you do with that partial list in post #67?
They were dispersed to all nations and I believe they started returning towards the late 19th century.
Israel is a witness to all nations by the way God miraculously deals with her.

 

[SarahM777]

What do you do with that partial list in post #67?
They were dispersed to all nations and I believe they started returning towards the late 19th century.
Israel is a witness to all nations by the way God miraculously deals with her.

The real is have they ALREADY been fulfilled and Jesus and the Apostles KNEW that or as they were pointing out that many of the prophesies have a deeper meaning,and had a SPIRITUAL reality to them and are and were being fulfilled in the church age?

 

[prodigal]

Israel has done many things wrong. They've been doing wrong for years. God knows that. And Israel will be corrected by God.

"In those days and at that time, When I (God) bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather ALL nations, And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; And I will enter into judgment with them there On account of My people, My heritage Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; They have also DIVIDED up My Land."

The only 'question' that needs to be asked is what side will we be on when God enters into judgment with Israel. His 'judgement' will be swift and woe to anyone that is against Israel at that time. When God's judgement is made it may be too late to change our views and opinions about Israel who are God's chosen people. God makes it very clear (to all that can hear) that His fury will come about in the city of Jerusalem, in the land of Israel:

“And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.” Zechariah 12:9

your late he did it 2000 yrs ago,,

Galatians 3:28
​

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[crossnote]

The real is have they ALREADY been fulfilled and Jesus and the Apostles KNEW that or as they were pointing out that many of the prophesies have a deeper meaning,and had a SPIRITUAL reality to them and are and were being fulfilled in the church age?

All prophecies pointing up to the cross and including it were literally fulfilled.
Why do you think now all of a sudden they might be spiritually fulfilled,?
Isaiah's prophecy of the virgin birth was literally fulfilled, why would the same prophet speak prophecies to be later fulfilled spiritually?
Which of those I listed in post #67 have already been fulfilled?

 

[crossnote]

your late he did it 2000 yrs ago,,

Galatians 3:28
​

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Yes, IN Christ; but in this world there still are male christians and female christians, christian slaves and christian masters, Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians.

 

[Esanta]

Yes, IN Christ; but in this world there still are male christians and female christians, christian slaves and christian masters, Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians.

Jesus recognized that specific sectarian identifications perpetuated social inequalities between people, and he spoke about no longer living by the written law but by a particular spirit instead. The message was 'approach people as humans, not slaves nor free nor jew nor gentile'. You're supposed to consider the values and character and motive and perspective with which you approach the world more than the rules and the regulations with which the world approaches you.

It's about purpose, meaning, intention, rather than statute, about character rather than label.

 

[PennEd]

this wont be any good for the christian zionists that believe israel can do no wrong but if any want a fair unbias view of the whole situation i found this quite good, 9 questions about the Israel-Palestine conflict you were too embarrassed to ask - Vox

What Christian Zionists believe Israel can do no wrong? Stop building strawmen.

 

[crossnote]

Jesus recognized that specific sectarian identifications perpetuated social inequalities between people, and he spoke about no longer living by the written law but by a particular spirit instead. The message was 'approach people as humans, not slaves nor free nor jew nor gentile'. You're supposed to consider the values and character and motive and perspective with which you approach the world more than the rules and the regulations with which the world approaches you.

It's about purpose, meaning, intention, rather than statute, about character rather than label.

Esanta , you are an intelligent person but when it comes to what is contained in Scripture you are woefully ignorant.

Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
(1Ti 6:1-3)

This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
(1Ti 3:1-2)

But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
(Gal 2:14)

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
(1Co 12:13-25)



The Christian Church is not a Communist endeavor where everything is reduced to 'equality' and sharing every thing. It's about all groups having their freedom in Christ despite their different callings and positions in the Body.

 

[oldthennew]

ACTS 2:44-45-46-47.

All that believed were together, and had all things common;

And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them
to all, as every man had need.

And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple,
and breaking bread from house to house, did eat meat
with gladness and singleness of heart,

Praising God, and having favor with all the people.
And The Lord added to the church daily
such as should be saved.

(this is God's Love, how sweet the taste!)

the HUGE stumbling-block in this world,
for all time, is, (one giving=up their possessions).

(((LUKE 18:22.)))
Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him,
Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast,
and distribute unto the poor,
and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow Me.

 

[PennEd]

Big difference between them. No Christian claims that Islam is doing these things in the name of God,BUT yet they will IGNORE what Israel does in the name of God.

WHAT!!!?? Out of all the ridiculous posts I've seen, this one takes the cake. ALL the murder, rape, terrorism, done on a DAILY basis, in every corner of the earth, IS IN THE NAME OF THE MOON GOD ALLAH!!!