Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?
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Bro....what you and the other post-tribbers will have to do is SET FORTH YOUR CASE in logical detailed form with which to support your contentions, and pretentions.
Because as of now, no one and nobody can hold a candle to what TDW has been presenting. He is cleaning house.
Post-tribbers relying vague unsupported accusations of error, or propping up ragged strawmen like Darby, Scofield and some obscure Jesuit priest is going to get you nowhere.
I have been cruising Rapture threads here on CC for years and years. And I can declare with complete confidence that the pre-trib rapture doctrine has prevailed in this and all threads. It has ALWAYS prevailed. IN EVERY THREAD. And in every case it was a total victory so overwhelming you would think that the post-tribbers would have scurried away to lick their wounds and never come back.
Oh and one other thing: this uninterrupted string of pre-trib victories was due to unapproachably high level scholarship and sublime understanding of the Scriptures from the largest sweeping macro scale down to the tiniest minutiae and the most enigmatic nuance.
Post-tribbers chatter, mutter, complain and mock. They are fearful and frightened of Darby-ish apparitions. They deny and defy when solid biblical teaching is presented. But building their doctrine upon the whole council of God? Naaahhhh. Not seeing anything like that happening.
Because as of now, no one and nobody can hold a candle to what TDW has been presenting. He is cleaning house.
Post-tribbers relying vague unsupported accusations of error, or propping up ragged strawmen like Darby, Scofield and some obscure Jesuit priest is going to get you nowhere.
I have been cruising Rapture threads here on CC for years and years. And I can declare with complete confidence that the pre-trib rapture doctrine has prevailed in this and all threads. It has ALWAYS prevailed. IN EVERY THREAD. And in every case it was a total victory so overwhelming you would think that the post-tribbers would have scurried away to lick their wounds and never come back.
Oh and one other thing: this uninterrupted string of pre-trib victories was due to unapproachably high level scholarship and sublime understanding of the Scriptures from the largest sweeping macro scale down to the tiniest minutiae and the most enigmatic nuance.
Post-tribbers chatter, mutter, complain and mock. They are fearful and frightened of Darby-ish apparitions. They deny and defy when solid biblical teaching is presented. But building their doctrine upon the whole council of God? Naaahhhh. Not seeing anything like that happening.
Why start at verse 3?
begin at verse 1
He is talking about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet Him in the clouds ... the day of Christ
Tynedale
let no man deceive you by any means except there come a departing first and that that man of sin be opened.
You make it say, concerning the rapture, that day will not come unless there has been a rapture first. It doesn't make sense.
The PROOF that departure is rebellion and that the man of sin is the man of rebellion is that he SLAIN in the temple by the sudden appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ and the breath of His mouth.
He is the BEAST who pretribbers claim forces everybody to take his mark after the church is gone.
BUT HE IS GONE, slain. His career does not begin at the departure of the church it ends.
Once the church is gone no more beast, no more mark of the beast, no more persecution by the beast, no more TRIBULATION for it was the persecution of the beast that constituted the great tribulation .... all that is BEFORE Jesus comes and comes to an end when He does come.
When Jesus comes He comes to reign. Hallelujah.
begin at verse 1
He is talking about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet Him in the clouds ... the day of Christ
Tynedale
let no man deceive you by any means except there come a departing first and that that man of sin be opened.
You make it say, concerning the rapture, that day will not come unless there has been a rapture first. It doesn't make sense.
The PROOF that departure is rebellion and that the man of sin is the man of rebellion is that he SLAIN in the temple by the sudden appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ and the breath of His mouth.
He is the BEAST who pretribbers claim forces everybody to take his mark after the church is gone.
BUT HE IS GONE, slain. His career does not begin at the departure of the church it ends.
Once the church is gone no more beast, no more mark of the beast, no more persecution by the beast, no more TRIBULATION for it was the persecution of the beast that constituted the great tribulation .... all that is BEFORE Jesus comes and comes to an end when He does come.
When Jesus comes He comes to reign. Hallelujah.
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So go ahead and reject it on those grounds too. Reject it on any grounds. No skin off my nose.
But I sure won't. Because I actually and truly UNDERSTAND what @TheDivineWatermark is posting. I listened. I did my homework. I carefully examined each and every Scriptural reference presented. Consequently, I "get it".
And it feels like I won the lottery. It feels like I found a treasure hidden in a field. It feels like I searched for and found a pearl of great price. And so on and so forth.....
But I sure won't. Because I actually and truly UNDERSTAND what @TheDivineWatermark is posting. I listened. I did my homework. I carefully examined each and every Scriptural reference presented. Consequently, I "get it".
And it feels like I won the lottery. It feels like I found a treasure hidden in a field. It feels like I searched for and found a pearl of great price. And so on and so forth.....
I have.
Doubt Darby said such... or that if he said something along those lines, has been misconstrued by the readers (*hearing* only a portion, taken out of context)... because...
--"the day of the Lord" (earthly-located time-period) when used in close-proximity to the phrase "IN THAT DAY," this ALWAYS refers to the SAME TIME-PERIOD (the earthly-located time period... It INCLUDES the 7-yr Trib unfolding upon the earth, Christ's Second Coming to the earth, AND the entire promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age--ALL transpiring ON THE EARTH; ALL THREE of these ASPECTS are what "the Day of the Lord" is comprised of [and its associated phrase "IN THAT DAY"--when used in THOSE contexts]);
--"the day of Christ / our Lord Jesus Christ" (when we/'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY' will be UP THERE *WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-WITH]* Him) is distinct, and the phrase "IN THAT DAY" when used referring to THIS (per context), is speaking of the SAME TIME-PERIOD (not to mention, SAME LOCATION I just mentioned... that is, when WE / 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY' will be UP THERE *WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-WITH]* Him--which involves "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"/"OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"... the "PRESENT [G3936]" word in 2Cor11:2... the "BEFORE [before the face of, in the presence of; G1715] God" in 1Th3:13... the awarding of "stephanous/crowns" [2Tim4:8, Rev4:4]... etc etc...)
So my suspicion is, that perhaps you only heard ONE PORTION of what JND may have been commenting on (in part), and not the entire [/wider] thought on the Subject (in its DISTINCT "applications" as I've shown in the above-portion of this post).
Sometimes we can take a small part of what someone has said (being ignorant of the wider Subject), and run with it, declaring we somehow have that person's ENTIRE THOUGHT on the matter, when really, we do not. Happens a lot.
Doubt Darby said such... or that if he said something along those lines, has been misconstrued by the readers (*hearing* only a portion, taken out of context)... because...
--"the day of the Lord" (earthly-located time-period) when used in close-proximity to the phrase "IN THAT DAY," this ALWAYS refers to the SAME TIME-PERIOD (the earthly-located time period... It INCLUDES the 7-yr Trib unfolding upon the earth, Christ's Second Coming to the earth, AND the entire promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age--ALL transpiring ON THE EARTH; ALL THREE of these ASPECTS are what "the Day of the Lord" is comprised of [and its associated phrase "IN THAT DAY"--when used in THOSE contexts]);
--"the day of Christ / our Lord Jesus Christ" (when we/'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY' will be UP THERE *WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-WITH]* Him) is distinct, and the phrase "IN THAT DAY" when used referring to THIS (per context), is speaking of the SAME TIME-PERIOD (not to mention, SAME LOCATION I just mentioned... that is, when WE / 'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY' will be UP THERE *WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-WITH]* Him--which involves "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"/"OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"... the "PRESENT [G3936]" word in 2Cor11:2... the "BEFORE [before the face of, in the presence of; G1715] God" in 1Th3:13... the awarding of "stephanous/crowns" [2Tim4:8, Rev4:4]... etc etc...)
So my suspicion is, that perhaps you only heard ONE PORTION of what JND may have been commenting on (in part), and not the entire [/wider] thought on the Subject (in its DISTINCT "applications" as I've shown in the above-portion of this post).
Sometimes we can take a small part of what someone has said (being ignorant of the wider Subject), and run with it, declaring we somehow have that person's ENTIRE THOUGHT on the matter, when really, we do not. Happens a lot.
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I should ask you to tell us who you think "they" are. But I won't. Becasue you will come up with the wrong answer. All posties come up with the wrong answer to that question. TWD however DOES come up with the correct answer to that question. And has supported it Biblically and thereby proven it conclusively many many times. A feat that you or the other posties are simply not capable achieving.
But I will ask you one question: Tell me the identity of the 24 elders of Revelation chapters 4 and 5. If you can.
Thank you.
But I will ask you one question: Tell me the identity of the 24 elders of Revelation chapters 4 and 5. If you can.
Thank you.
It does not alter the fact that it happens "after the tribulation of those days ... "
The sequence may be that we are gathered to Him at the first shout and the trumpet, our translation may be sudden, Elijah said to Elisha "if you see me being translated ... " kind of indicates suddenness, nobody else saw Elijah's translation.
I take the 24 elders to be the whole church.
The Apocalypse thereafter deals with the wrath of God ... the wrath of God is not the tribulation
In the world you will have tribulation ... tribulation comes ALWAYS from man.
The sequence may be that we are gathered to Him at the first shout and the trumpet, our translation may be sudden, Elijah said to Elisha "if you see me being translated ... " kind of indicates suddenness, nobody else saw Elijah's translation.
I take the 24 elders to be the whole church.
The Apocalypse thereafter deals with the wrath of God ... the wrath of God is not the tribulation
In the world you will have tribulation ... tribulation comes ALWAYS from man.
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No no I made no mistake , he made "that day" in 2Thess.2 to mean the day of the Lord.
Darby was an incredibly intelligent man, an Oxford scholar, he was too smart to be mistaken.
He deliberately set out to deceive. He was vain glorious and found out in a terrible lie against George Muller of Bristol and he split asunder the Brethren movement.
Darby was an incredibly intelligent man, an Oxford scholar, he was too smart to be mistaken.
He deliberately set out to deceive. He was vain glorious and found out in a terrible lie against George Muller of Bristol and he split asunder the Brethren movement.
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Nope.
And as I've told you in past posts when you've tried to claim these things:
Edward Irving was an "Historicist" (1827 - "Preliminary Discourse"), NOT a "pre-tribber"...
... and the info I'd supplied about M. MacDonald shows her supposed "vision" described a "POST-TRIB rapture" (not "PRE-"!):
[quoting from old post]
[the two sentences by M. MacDonald which were later removed, demonstrating she believed the rapture would be POST-trib, not PRE-trib
]
[quoting from wikipedia]
"The rise in belief in the pre-tribulation rapture is often wrongly attributed to a 15-year-old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald who was of the first to receive a spiritual baptism under a Pentecostal awakening in Scotland. In 1830, she supposedly had a vision of the end times which describes a post-tribulation view of the rapture that was first published in 1840. It was published again in 1861, but two important passages demonstrating a post-tribulation view were removed to encourage confusion concerning the timing of the rapture. The two removed segments were, "This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus" and "The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept".[83][84]
[...]
"References [...]
"83. ^ Hommel, Jason. "Margaret MacDonald's Vision"
[ https://web.archive.org/web/20030115080400/http://www.bibleprophesy.org/vision.htm ] . Jason Hommel's Bible Prophecy Study on the Pre Tribulation Rapture. Grass Valley, California. Archived from the original on 15 January 2003. Retrieved 14 November 2016. Quotes the account in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861).
"84. ^ Wilkinson, Paul Richard (1 December 2008). "Appendix: Margaret McDonald's Utterances". For Zion's Sake: Christian Zionism and the Role of John Nelson Darby. Wipf and Stock Publishers. pp. 262–263. ISBN 1556358075. A more complete version, combining the text in Norton's Memoirs and that in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), all cited secondary from Macpherson, The Incredible Coverup."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
[end quoting wikipedia; bold and underline mine; inserted the link which didn't transfer from the article automatically, but you can find them there in the wiki article itself]
____________
[... I hope ppl only go to that link to see the two sentences which apparently were removed at a later time, but which show her to have described "the Church" going through the tribulation period, not being removed prior to it as the "pre-trib" doctrine shows]
[end quoting from old post]
And as I've told you in past posts when you've tried to claim these things:
Edward Irving was an "Historicist" (1827 - "Preliminary Discourse"), NOT a "pre-tribber"...
... and the info I'd supplied about M. MacDonald shows her supposed "vision" described a "POST-TRIB rapture" (not "PRE-"!):
[quoting from old post]
[the two sentences by M. MacDonald which were later removed, demonstrating she believed the rapture would be POST-trib, not PRE-trib
][quoting from wikipedia]
"The rise in belief in the pre-tribulation rapture is often wrongly attributed to a 15-year-old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald who was of the first to receive a spiritual baptism under a Pentecostal awakening in Scotland. In 1830, she supposedly had a vision of the end times which describes a post-tribulation view of the rapture that was first published in 1840. It was published again in 1861, but two important passages demonstrating a post-tribulation view were removed to encourage confusion concerning the timing of the rapture. The two removed segments were, "This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus" and "The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept".[83][84]
[...]
"References [...]
"83. ^ Hommel, Jason. "Margaret MacDonald's Vision"
[ https://web.archive.org/web/20030115080400/http://www.bibleprophesy.org/vision.htm ] . Jason Hommel's Bible Prophecy Study on the Pre Tribulation Rapture. Grass Valley, California. Archived from the original on 15 January 2003. Retrieved 14 November 2016. Quotes the account in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861).
"84. ^ Wilkinson, Paul Richard (1 December 2008). "Appendix: Margaret McDonald's Utterances". For Zion's Sake: Christian Zionism and the Role of John Nelson Darby. Wipf and Stock Publishers. pp. 262–263. ISBN 1556358075. A more complete version, combining the text in Norton's Memoirs and that in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), all cited secondary from Macpherson, The Incredible Coverup."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
[end quoting wikipedia; bold and underline mine; inserted the link which didn't transfer from the article automatically, but you can find them there in the wiki article itself]
____________
[... I hope ppl only go to that link to see the two sentences which apparently were removed at a later time, but which show her to have described "the Church" going through the tribulation period, not being removed prior to it as the "pre-trib" doctrine shows]
[end quoting from old post]
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Nope.
And as I've told you in past posts when you've tried to claim these things:
Edward Irving was an "Historicist" (1827 - "Preliminary Discourse"), NOT a "pre-tribber"...
... and the info I'd supplied about M. MacDonald shows her supposed "vision" described a "POST-TRIB rapture" (not "PRE-"!):
[quoting from old post]
[the two sentences by M. MacDonald which were later removed, demonstrating she believed the rapture would be POST-trib, not PRE-trib ]
[quoting from wikipedia]
"The rise in belief in the pre-tribulation rapture is often wrongly attributed to a 15-year-old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald who was of the first to receive a spiritual baptism under a Pentecostal awakening in Scotland. In 1830, she supposedly had a vision of the end times which describes a post-tribulation view of the rapture that was first published in 1840. It was published again in 1861, but two important passages demonstrating a post-tribulation view were removed to encourage confusion concerning the timing of the rapture. The two removed segments were, "This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus" and "The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept".[83][84]
[...]
"References [...]
"83. ^ Hommel, Jason. "Margaret MacDonald's Vision"
[ https://web.archive.org/web/20030115080400/http://www.bibleprophesy.org/vision.htm ] . Jason Hommel's Bible Prophecy Study on the Pre Tribulation Rapture. Grass Valley, California. Archived from the original on 15 January 2003. Retrieved 14 November 2016. Quotes the account in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861).
"84. ^ Wilkinson, Paul Richard (1 December 2008). "Appendix: Margaret McDonald's Utterances". For Zion's Sake: Christian Zionism and the Role of John Nelson Darby. Wipf and Stock Publishers. pp. 262–263. ISBN 1556358075. A more complete version, combining the text in Norton's Memoirs and that in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), all cited secondary from Macpherson, The Incredible Coverup."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
[end quoting wikipedia; bold and underline mine; inserted the link which didn't transfer from the article automatically, but you can find them there in the wiki article itself]
____________
[... I hope ppl only go to that link to see the two sentences which apparently were removed at a later time, but which show her to have described "the Church" going through the tribulation period, not being removed prior to it as the "pre-trib" doctrine shows]
[end quoting from old post]
And as I've told you in past posts when you've tried to claim these things:
Edward Irving was an "Historicist" (1827 - "Preliminary Discourse"), NOT a "pre-tribber"...
... and the info I'd supplied about M. MacDonald shows her supposed "vision" described a "POST-TRIB rapture" (not "PRE-"!):
[quoting from old post]
[the two sentences by M. MacDonald which were later removed, demonstrating she believed the rapture would be POST-trib, not PRE-trib
][quoting from wikipedia]
"The rise in belief in the pre-tribulation rapture is often wrongly attributed to a 15-year-old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald who was of the first to receive a spiritual baptism under a Pentecostal awakening in Scotland. In 1830, she supposedly had a vision of the end times which describes a post-tribulation view of the rapture that was first published in 1840. It was published again in 1861, but two important passages demonstrating a post-tribulation view were removed to encourage confusion concerning the timing of the rapture. The two removed segments were, "This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus" and "The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept".[83][84]
[...]
"References [...]
"83. ^ Hommel, Jason. "Margaret MacDonald's Vision"
[ https://web.archive.org/web/20030115080400/http://www.bibleprophesy.org/vision.htm ] . Jason Hommel's Bible Prophecy Study on the Pre Tribulation Rapture. Grass Valley, California. Archived from the original on 15 January 2003. Retrieved 14 November 2016. Quotes the account in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861).
"84. ^ Wilkinson, Paul Richard (1 December 2008). "Appendix: Margaret McDonald's Utterances". For Zion's Sake: Christian Zionism and the Role of John Nelson Darby. Wipf and Stock Publishers. pp. 262–263. ISBN 1556358075. A more complete version, combining the text in Norton's Memoirs and that in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), all cited secondary from Macpherson, The Incredible Coverup."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
[end quoting wikipedia; bold and underline mine; inserted the link which didn't transfer from the article automatically, but you can find them there in the wiki article itself]
____________
[... I hope ppl only go to that link to see the two sentences which apparently were removed at a later time, but which show her to have described "the Church" going through the tribulation period, not being removed prior to it as the "pre-trib" doctrine shows]
[end quoting from old post]
On the contrary the 7 years tribulation aka the 70th week of Daniel most certainly IS the wrath of God. And of the Lamb.
A period of time that you posties firmly believe that you will experience to its fullest extent, seeing that you believe that the rapture occurs at the VERY END of the tribulation at the instant of the SC.
Yes, this verse points to the last 3-1/2 years. But that is the worst of it anyways.
Mat 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Here is the supposed fate of the post-tribbers.
Rev 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Are 10 citations enough to convince you that the 7 year tribulation = the wrath of God?
Rev 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:19
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 15:1
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Rev 15:7
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16:19
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
A period of time that you posties firmly believe that you will experience to its fullest extent, seeing that you believe that the rapture occurs at the VERY END of the tribulation at the instant of the SC.
Yes, this verse points to the last 3-1/2 years. But that is the worst of it anyways.
Mat 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Here is the supposed fate of the post-tribbers.
Rev 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Are 10 citations enough to convince you that the 7 year tribulation = the wrath of God?
Rev 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:19
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 15:1
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Rev 15:7
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16:19
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
"that day" (v.3a) DOES refer back to the content of the "false claim" in verse 2 ("[purporting] that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]"--Where in v.2, I've listed out something like 27 versions that show this to be the wording in v.2).
Speaking of the "earthly-located time-period" we commonly call "the Trib" (i.e. the JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth OVER SOME TIME)... which was a PERFECTLY REASONABLE thing for them to be [wrongly] persuaded WAS TRUE, given their present and ONGOING, *VERY NEGATIVE* circumstances Paul acknowledged they (at that time / in their day) "ENDURE" 2Th1:4.
They "knew [know] perfectly" WHAT "the day of the Lord" IS... AND the manner of its ARRIVAL (per 1Th5:1-3);
In 2Th2, Paul is saying, don't let anyone convince you (freaking you out!) that it "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE" v.2 (i.e. here, and playing out / unfolding in their own present-day experience)...
...and then he further explains WHY it cannot be so! (and REPEATS that SEQUENCE 3x in this context... which AGREES with the SAME SEQUENCE shown in his first epistle to them, as well as the SEQUENCE all other passages elsewhere also show, regarding this Subject).
The issue he's covering is: WHAT happens WHEN in relation [time-wise / sequence-wise] to WHAT OTHER THING.
The problem enters when ppl incorrectly DEFINE various terms within this text, grammatically butcher other parts of this passage, smoosh DISTINCT things into being ONE and the SAME thing, 'READ-[ideas-]INTO' certain other portions of this passage, make incorrect assumptions about this passage, and assume that the Thessalonians were pert-near nin-com-poops (that they would believe a "[false] claim" with ABSOLUTELY ZERO EVIDENCE for it ANYWHERE IN SIGHT!!)... which they were not.
Speaking of the "earthly-located time-period" we commonly call "the Trib" (i.e. the JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth OVER SOME TIME)... which was a PERFECTLY REASONABLE thing for them to be [wrongly] persuaded WAS TRUE, given their present and ONGOING, *VERY NEGATIVE* circumstances Paul acknowledged they (at that time / in their day) "ENDURE" 2Th1:4.
They "knew [know] perfectly" WHAT "the day of the Lord" IS... AND the manner of its ARRIVAL (per 1Th5:1-3);
In 2Th2, Paul is saying, don't let anyone convince you (freaking you out!) that it "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE" v.2 (i.e. here, and playing out / unfolding in their own present-day experience)...
...and then he further explains WHY it cannot be so! (and REPEATS that SEQUENCE 3x in this context... which AGREES with the SAME SEQUENCE shown in his first epistle to them, as well as the SEQUENCE all other passages elsewhere also show, regarding this Subject).
The issue he's covering is: WHAT happens WHEN in relation [time-wise / sequence-wise] to WHAT OTHER THING.
The problem enters when ppl incorrectly DEFINE various terms within this text, grammatically butcher other parts of this passage, smoosh DISTINCT things into being ONE and the SAME thing, 'READ-[ideas-]INTO' certain other portions of this passage, make incorrect assumptions about this passage, and assume that the Thessalonians were pert-near nin-com-poops (that they would believe a "[false] claim" with ABSOLUTELY ZERO EVIDENCE for it ANYWHERE IN SIGHT!!)... which they were not.
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It is amazing when the LORD begins to lead you how you come to realize that many that have great swelling of words and men's admiration are often dupes or shills for the dark side.
If Christian's could truly understand that the Jesuits were very deliberate in inserting false doctrine to cause divisions and to infiltrate to cause whole movements of GOD to be turned aside.
They are insidious.
If Christian's could truly understand that the Jesuits were very deliberate in inserting false doctrine to cause divisions and to infiltrate to cause whole movements of GOD to be turned aside.
They are insidious.